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  • Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

    http://www.businessinsider.com/ap-my...actory-2015-11

    LOS ANGELES (AP) — The luxury electric car market may be small, but it's lucrative enough to get another jolt — this time from a mysterious startup that says it wants to re-imagine how people interact with their autos.

    The startup's name is Faraday Future, and it has been hunting for a place to build what it says will be a $1 billion manufacturing plant for a new line of cars. Four states are contenders and the company says to expect an announcement within weeks.

    Headquartered in a low-profile office just south of Los Angeles, Faraday is holding a lot of details close. Though it won't confirm the source of its funds, documents filed in California point to a parent company run by a Chinese billionaire who styles himself after Apple's late Steve Jobs.

    Based on the few other public clues, Faraday is following the path blazed by Tesla Motors, its would-be rival hundreds of miles away in Silicon Valley.
    Like Tesla, Faraday's car will be all-electric, and debut at the high end.

    The startup of about 400 employees has poached executive talent from Tesla and also draws its name from a luminary scientist — Michael Faraday — who helped harness for humanity the forces of nature.

    Even Faraday's public announcement that California, Georgia, Louisiana and Nevada are finalists for the factory mirrors the approach Tesla took to build a massive battery factory. Nevada won that bidding war among several states last year by offering up to $1.3 billion in tax breaks and other incentives.

    Faraday hopes to distinguish itself by branding the car less as transportation than a tool for the connected class.

    "People's lives are changed by their mobile devices, the way that we interact," Faraday spokeswoman Stacy Morris said. "The car industry hasn't caught up sufficiently. The car still feels like a place where you're disconnected."

    Just what that means could hit the road as early as 2017, when Faraday has said it wants to bring a car to market.

    The timeline is ambitious, given that it typically takes automakers at least three years to go from concept to production — and that's when they already have their factories up and running.

    "Developing an electric vehicle platform from scratch takes many years and doing it in 18 to 24 months would be a precedent-setting event, if it could be done," said John Gartner a director at the market intelligence firm Navigant Research.

    Then again, Faraday was around for more than a year before its recent public coming out. It was originally incorporated in California in May 2014 as LeTV ENV Inc., according to papers filed with the California Secretary of State. The address in Beijing is associated with Letv, a holding company founded by Chinese tech pioneer Jia Yueting.
    Yueting is referred to as China's equivalent of Jobs, both for his talk of "disrupting" traditional industries as well as his jeans and T-shirt wardrobe at product launches.
    Faraday spokeswoman Morris wouldn't comment on Yueting.

    "We're in stealth mode where we're not revealing ownership," she said. "There's a significant investor who wants the company to stand on its own merit before being associated" with it."

    Navigant projects that the luxury plug-in market will grow in the U.S. from 109,000 cars or SUVs next year to 468,000 in 2023. With a market share increase from 0.7 percent to 2.6 percent of all "light duty vehicles" (which also includes vans and pickup trucks), it's still a niche market.

    And by 2023, there will be even more competition — automakers other than Tesla plan to compete for customers who want luxury electric vehicles.
    "The market's only going to get more challenging," Navigant's Gartner said.

  • #2
    Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

    More pricy, pricy toys for rich, rich boys.

    I guess so long as it's fashionable to keep a Tesla next to your Ferrari and Rolls Royce in your 50 car collection, the market will bear a few more $100,000+ toys...the rest of us will make do with our Civics and Corollas and F-150s.

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    • #3
      Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

      Toyota Corolla 2015 in Uruguay: $ 35.900. Half of the workforce earns less than $550 (monthly).
      They can't have a car. Even a "modest" second hand Corolla.

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      • #4
        Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

        Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
        More pricy, pricy toys for rich, rich boys.

        I guess so long as it's fashionable to keep a Tesla next to your Ferrari and Rolls Royce in your 50 car collection, the market will bear a few more $100,000+ toys...the rest of us will make do with our Civics and Corollas and F-150s.
        dc, it might be good for the "rich, rich" to be spending their money on high end electric cars. That is how research is funded. Because I am sadly addicted to motor vehicles and their history, I have a copy of the Kelly Blue Book from 1926. The Civic of the day was a Ford Runabout. A "convertible" with only a windscreen and no side windows, but of course no one called it a convertible, it was just the very cheapest Model T one could buy at $360. If you wanted the Pickup body that was another $21. A coupe with side and back windows was $125 more. The basic Runabout was only $4800 in today's dollars. Or one could also buy a Duesenberg Town Car for a $128k equivalent. By the height of the depression in 1932 Duesenberg had developed a $25,000, ($335k today), Model J with a supercharger, the SJ. It had 320 HP and could top speeds of 135 mph. This is while most of America was just hoping to eat.

        Civics are going to be much better cars in a decade or two because someone is willing to buy a Tesla to park next to their Ferrari.

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        • #5
          Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

          Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
          dc, it might be good for the "rich, rich" to be spending their money on high end electric cars. That is how research is funded. Because I am sadly addicted to motor vehicles and their history, I have a copy of the Kelly Blue Book from 1926. The Civic of the day was a Ford Runabout. A "convertible" with only a windscreen and no side windows, but of course no one called it a convertible, it was just the very cheapest Model T one could buy at $360. If you wanted the Pickup body that was another $21. A coupe with side and back windows was $125 more. The basic Runabout was only $4800 in today's dollars. Or one could also buy a Duesenberg Town Car for a $128k equivalent. By the height of the depression in 1932 Duesenberg had developed a $25,000, ($335k today), Model J with a supercharger, the SJ. It had 320 HP and could top speeds of 135 mph. This is while most of America was just hoping to eat.

          Civics are going to be much better cars in a decade or two because someone is willing to buy a Tesla to park next to their Ferrari.
          I'll believe that when Tesla fields an F1 car.

          Honda's been there on and off since 1964. Ferrari even longer.

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          • #6
            Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

            Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
            I'll believe that when Tesla fields an F1 car.

            Honda's been there on and off since 1964. Ferrari even longer.
            Not a defense of Tesla, a defense of the rich willing to pay for the new new thing. One of my neighbors has a 918. Does it make economic sense? No, but it's one fine vehicle that Porsche is only willing to manufacture because the much too rich will buy them. Without someone willing to pay silly amounts of money for a 918, we won't have a $20,000 Civic that gets 100 mpg in the next decade.

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            • #7
              Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

              Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
              Civics are going to be much better cars in a decade or two because someone is willing to buy a Tesla to park next to their Ferrari.
              This sentence is where you and I differ. I think Li ion batteries and cars are both very mature technologies. I don't think price will drop either with scale or innovation. Civics might be much better cars in a decade or two because someone is willing to buy a Prius or an Element. But I'm pretty sure Tesla will have literally nothing to do with it.

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              • #8
                Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

                Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                Without someone willing to pay silly amounts of money for a 918, we won't have a $20,000 Civic that gets 100 mpg in the next decade.
                Not to beat a dead horse on ya, Santa, but why in the hell would Oliver Bloome hand over his profits from selling a 918 to Takahiro Hachigo, and what about the design would help a Civic reach 100 MPG, and even if you identify something, why would Porsche give it to Honda?

                A Civic Hybrid can already get 50 MPG if you drive it carefully. But a Civic Hybrid costs $10,000 more than a new Civic. That's $18,000 vs. $27,000. This is why there are not too many Civic Hybrids on the road. And I don't see what a big fancy Porsche's going to do to fix that that the Honda Insight won't.

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                • #9
                  Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

                  Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                  This sentence is where you and I differ. I think Li ion batteries and cars are both very mature technologies. I don't think price will drop either with scale or innovation. Civics might be much better cars in a decade or two because someone is willing to buy a Prius or an Element. But I'm pretty sure Tesla will have literally nothing to do with it.
                  Musk is spending other people's $5B to build the largest factory for lithium batteries in the world. He's already purchased additional land to give him the space to make the factory the largest building in the world, much less the largest building for battery manufacture. Whatever we may think, he has big dreams and is channeling PT Barnum. We know he's selling snake oil but that's not the point; it's selling and with this massive capacity the price will drop. Forget about Tesla the car company as the main consumer of these batteries, countries who have over built solar and/or wind need to time shift energy consumption.

                  Once the factory is built, and that's about a year out, he'll have the capacity to produce about half the world output of lithium batteries. Does this make economic sense? Probably not but it will drive down the price. The scale of the enterprise will drive the market like the massive build out of silicon manufacturing a decade ago when solar energy finally subsumed the silicon wafer market. This example is a bit upside down since the market is not driving the build-out but I've no doubt that people will pay to time shift energy usage as the cost of traditional stationary and mobile energy moves up. Maybe not in time to save Tesla, but we will all benefit from this extravagance...including Honda.

                  If you're interested in how quickly this market for mobile energy is changing read GRG's excellent article last weekend regarding natural gas as a transportation energy source. It's obvious that coal is a dead energy source but two years ago no one would have said oil had a problem. I'm not so sure that's true today.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

                    Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                    This sentence is where you and I differ. I think Li ion batteries and cars are both very mature technologies. I don't think price will drop either with scale or innovation. Civics might be much better cars in a decade or two because someone is willing to buy a Prius or an Element. But I'm pretty sure Tesla will have literally nothing to do with it.

                    Don't know about electric cars, haven't had one or driven one. But do car Li-ion batteries have a depletion problem?

                    I know my iPhone and laptop battery had only slightly over half the lifespan when they were new after about 3 years of usage. To deal with the problem, I used an external battery pack which I had to lug around as it was quite heavy. It was a hassle but not something which I can't live with. I know I used my iPhone too long, I'm suppose to change to a new phone every 1-2 years.

                    As for my laptop, luckily it came with a free extra battery pack, so I swapped to the new battery and threw away the original on the 3rd year or so.

                    Now, may I ask how much does an entire new set of Tesla battery cost?
                    Last edited by touchring; November 10, 2015, 02:08 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

                      Building the building and acquiring the land is the easy part.

                      A software programmer,like Elon Musk, is not prepared for the challenges of running a full scale battery factory. This battery factory is just another Elon Musk illusion that the market gobbles up.

                      Elon joined Tesla Motors as an early financier and has no expertise in batteries or EVs or rockets.

                      I drive a hybrid car and I love the regenerative breaking as well as the 40 miles per gallon summer mileage. But, when winter arrives here in the Northern hemisphere the hybrid becomes a regular car and mileage drops to 25-30 miles per gallon.

                      During the cold months it is nice to be warm and there is no way to warm a cabin while running on battery.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

                        Originally posted by touchring View Post
                        Don't know about electric cars, haven't had one or driven one. But do car Li-ion batteries have a depletion problem?

                        I know my iPhone and laptop battery had only slightly over half the lifespan when they were new after about 3 years of usage. To deal with the problem, I used an external battery pack which I had to lug around as it was quite heavy. It was a hassle but not something which I can't live with. I know I used my iPhone too long, I'm suppose to change to a new phone every 1-2 years.

                        As for my laptop, luckily it came with a free extra battery pack, so I swapped to the new battery and threw away the original on the 3rd year or so.

                        Now, may I ask how much does an entire new set of Tesla battery cost?
                        From what I read at a couple of electric car sites, (insideevs.com is a good one), the batteries and battery chemistry used in electric cars don't exhibit the problems encountered in laptops and phones. Also, the battery chemistry is improving over time. The 2016 Leaf will charge ~80% in 30 minutes with a fast charger and the batteries will maintain 90% of their range after 100,000 miles. As EJ noted years ago, battery improvements will be incremental so a breakthrough is unlikely. Musk wants to shave the cost by 30% but as BK noted, he's never done anything like this before so there's a chance Tesla won't get it right.

                        I've driven a Volt electric hybrid for over 3 years and the electric range varies by 50% depending on temperature but over the three years I've averaged more than 150 mpg and with the 2016 Volt I would average over 250 mpg. The new one averages 60 miles a day on electric driving instead of 40. When the 2016 Volt was released last month it outsold both the Tesla and the Leaf for the first time in 2 years but to be fair the 2016 Leaf was just arriving at dealers in October so it may be more related to availability. Overall, EVs and EV hybrid sales are down about 10% YOY in the US. One assumes this is related to the cost of gasoline. The big test for electrics will come when the federal government $7500 tax credit goes away.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

                          Cars. The American dream is to have an affordable, mass produced car that expresses one's unique personality. That reminds me of housing, another American dream. What this country needs is cheap affordable housing that quickly rises in value. We are a classless society. Everyone should have a butler...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

                            Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                            From what I read at a couple of electric car sites, (insideevs.com is a good one), the batteries and battery chemistry used in electric cars don't exhibit the problems encountered in laptops and phones. Also, the battery chemistry is improving over time. The 2016 Leaf will charge ~80% in 30 minutes with a fast charger and the batteries will maintain 90% of their range after 100,000 miles. As EJ noted years ago, battery improvements will be incremental so a breakthrough is unlikely. Musk wants to shave the cost by 30% but as BK noted, he's never done anything like this before so there's a chance Tesla won't get it right.

                            I've driven a Volt electric hybrid for over 3 years and the electric range varies by 50% depending on temperature but over the three years I've averaged more than 150 mpg and with the 2016 Volt I would average over 250 mpg. The new one averages 60 miles a day on electric driving instead of 40. When the 2016 Volt was released last month it outsold both the Tesla and the Leaf for the first time in 2 years but to be fair the 2016 Leaf was just arriving at dealers in October so it may be more related to availability. Overall, EVs and EV hybrid sales are down about 10% YOY in the US. One assumes this is related to the cost of gasoline. The big test for electrics will come when the federal government $7500 tax credit goes away.

                            Thanks for replying Sanfe2. It appears that hybrids are the way to go for now.

                            In the short to medium term, gasoline prices won't become more expensive to justify EVs.

                            The problem is the oil industry, as a whole not referring to individual companies, can cut cost quicker than the cost of batteries can fall. In the medium term, the oil industry can still be marginally profitable with oil prices at $40 a barrel, but Tesla will be bankrupt in x years if oil remains at that price.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Mysterious Electric Car Company Looking To Build $1 Billon Dollar Factory

                              Originally posted by touchring View Post
                              In the short to medium term, gasoline prices won't become more expensive to justify EVs.

                              The problem is the oil industry, as a whole not referring to individual companies, can cut cost quicker than the cost of batteries can fall. In the medium term, the oil industry can still be marginally profitable with oil prices at $40 a barrel, but Tesla will be bankrupt in x years if oil remains at that price.
                              Outside iTulip, I'm not sure this is conventional wisdom. Oil is still the big dog of the energy world. If they have to suffer terrible margins for several years while they crush the start-ups and our less than friendly competitors in the ME, Tesla is just fodder. Oops, nice car you made there Elon, big factory in the desert, thanks again. Walmart plans to gut it so they can expand their distribution business. Too bad about your timing. GM, Honda, Toyota, etc. will be happy to keep moving this high mileage vehicle business forward.

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