Galbraith on Greece

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Will We All Be Greeks?

NYTimes article on Iceland compared to Greece:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/bu...T.nav=top-news

Cohesive/homogenous Icelandic "apples" versus chaotic and schizophrenic Greek "oranges" I reckon.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Will We All Be Greeks?

http://rt.com/shows/going-undergroun...sia-tragedies/

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Will We All Be Greeks?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17108367

9 minute video

[gnk]

Re: Will We All Be Greeks?

From a distance, nothing. Mostly, people are good at hiding their stress. Occasionally you'll hear arguments at some cafes. Just a couple nights ago, I heard someone telling his friends: "What do you think? Tsipras is Agios Vasilis (Santa Claus) with the ability to give you money? We're broke!"

The issue with visiting Greece, I hate to say, is if you get really sick. Not the place for those that rely on treatments. I have an uncle with cancer and I worry about him. I wonder if Stiglitz and Krugman and others thought of that in their economic analysis? It's not an easy choice, and one on the outside could never think of all the repercussions; they don't have to live the day after in Greece.

But anyway, I'm sure many here are asking themselves: "Why the hell is he in Greece?" Well, these are some images I downloaded from the internet. They are various locations on the island I reside in, Kefalonia:

Argostoli_Greece.jpgArgostoli_by_air.jpgfiskardo-cephalonia-drogkarati-cave-assos-village.jpgBay_of_Assos.JPGmelissani.jpgagiaefimia001.jpgmyrtos.jpg

[Woodsman]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

...My leftist friends think I'm too much to the right and the conservatives think I''m too liberal.

Poor thing. Maybe they just can't recognize your genius and intellectual courage? What you need a new set of imaginary friends who appreciate your brilliance.

[don]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

The Financial Times reports Greek Banks Prepare Plan to Raid Deposits to Avert Collapse

Greek banks are preparing contingency plans for a possible “bail-in” of depositors amid fears the country is heading for financial collapse, bankers and businesspeople with knowledge of the measures said on Friday.

The plans, which call for a “haircut” of at least 30 per cent on deposits above €8,000, sketch out an increasingly likely scenario for at least one bank, the sources said.

“It [the haircut] would take place in the context of an overall restructuring of the bank sector once Greece is back in a bailout programme,” said one person following the issue. “This is not something that is going to happen immediately.”

Greece’s banks have been closed since Monday, when capital controls were imposed to prevent a bank run following the leftwing Syriza-led government’s call for a referendum on a bailout plan it had earlier rejected. Greece’s highest court rejected an appeal by two citizens on Friday who had asked for the referendum to be declared unconstitutional.

Depositors can withdraw only €60 a day from bank ATM cash machines, while requests to transfer funds abroad have to be approved by a special finance ministry committee in co-operation with the Greek central bank.

Greek deposits are guaranteed up to €100,000, in line with EU banking directives, but the country’s deposit insurance fund amounts to only €3bn, which would not be enough to cover demand in case of a bank collapse.

With few deposits over €100,000 left in the banks after six months of capital flight, “it makes sense for the banks to consider imposing a haircut on small depositors as part of a recapitalisation. . . It could even be flagged as a one-off tax,” said one analyst.

note: this bank option is available throughout the 'first' world (and why? to stop another 'bailout' )

[GRG55]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

The nation may collapse, but anything to save the banks...

[GRG55]

Re: Will We All Be Greeks?

From a distance, nothing. Mostly, people are good at hiding their stress. Occasionally you'll hear arguments at some cafes. Just a couple nights ago, I heard someone telling his friends: "What do you think? Tsipras is Agios Vasilis (Santa Claus) with the ability to give you money? We're broke!"

The issue with visiting Greece, I hate to say, is if you get really sick. Not the place for those that rely on treatments. I have an uncle with cancer and I worry about him. I wonder if Stiglitz and Krugman and others thought of that in their economic analysis? It's not an easy choice, and one on the outside could never think of all the repercussions; they don't have to live the day after in Greece.

But anyway, I'm sure many here are asking themselves: "Why the hell is he in Greece?" Well, these are some images I downloaded from the internet. They are various locations on the island I reside in, Kefalonia:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5649[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5650[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5651[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5652[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5653[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5655[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5654[/ATTACH]

The siren call of a free lunch is difficult for most voters, anywhere, to turn down. "Democracy" is the process of granting yourself privileges at the polling booth while trying to find a way to transfer the cost of same to someone else.

Although the provision of medical care is a challenge in Greece because of its geography (while sailing I recall coming across mobile hydrofoil clinics that did circuits of the islands each week), the trade off for many would seem well worth it. It is not difficult to understand why early civilization flourished in the Mediterranean region; an observation reinforced particularly while eating tasteless, irrigated, imported "food" during the depths of a frigid Canadian winter. I wish I knew when I was younger much of what I know today. If I had my life to live over a significant chunk of every year would be devoted to exploring from the Aegean to the Balearic by boat, gaining a similar perspective as the mariners in ancient times.

[Woodsman]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

I'm red-baiting...

Yes, that's been established. And the commies are not "in power" and never have been. The last time they held any meaningful power was in 1945 and the Varkiza Agreement took care of that.

My ability to make intellectual leaps require some surface upon which to land. And you are standing over an abyss. Insults and condescension seems to be your primary approach with those whom you think you disagree. Merely residing in a country does not endow one with encyclopedic knowledge of its history and culture. People in such positions tend towards parochialism and tunnel vision because, well they "just know" things.

The links - and message they highlight - were directed at the other red baiter, vt. And for what it is, the knowledge you share with us seems of far less value than you might hope we believe it does. Certainly, if I am ever in your part of the world, I will be sure to reach out for restaurant recommendations and perhaps where I might find the nicest beaches in season. But as for politics and economics, I find your perspective as quotidian as any other I've heard of late on the matter from J.P. Sixpack (and particularly, his buddy at J.P. Morgan). I have yet to learn anything meaningful - beyond your opinion - I can't get from Bloomberg or the Wall Street Journal or some other right leaning, establishment press pushing the TINA line.

Please, do ask those commie relatives of yours a few questions...

• Who is credited with the first act of resistance against Nazi occupation?
• What was his political leaning?
• To which did he belong, EAM/ELAS or EDES?
• Which was the first resistance organization?
• Which drew first blood against the Nazis?
• Which controlled almost all of Greece by 1943?
• Who created the Security Battalions and Organization X?
• Who collaborated with the Nazi's to hunt down EAM partisans and sympathizers (and deport Jews to their death) prior to being granted political power by the British?
• Who drew first blood in the Dekemvriana and triggered the civil war?
• Ask who broke the Varkiza Agreement and initiated the White Terror?

Ask all your commie friends and family why were the people who fought the Nazis butchered by those who had collaborated with them?
Ask them why the Greek right denies this, as you just did?
Ask who controlled Greek post war politics and the security forces, the collaborationists or the communists?
Inquire why instead of being persecuted and sent to prison, they followed successful careers as army officers, politicians and businessmen?

Ask why their grandchildren sit in parliament and ministries to this day:

• Ioannis Rallis was collaborationist Prime Minister from 1943 to 1944 during the German Occupation — His son Georgios Rallis was Prime Minister of Greece (New Democracy) 1980–1981 and an influential politician.
• Dionisios Papadogonas was chief of the collaborationist Security Battalions in Peloponnese — His son is the politician Papadogonas who became Shipping Minister and Member of Parliament with the New Democracy.
• George Mihaloliakos was an important member of the collaborationist Security Battalions in Peloponnese — His son is the leader of Neo Nazi party in Greece Nikos Mihaloliakos.
• George Papakostadinou had the monopoly of electricity production and distribution in Ptolemaida in 1941 with Tsolakoglou’s order — His grandchild George Papakostadinou was Minister of Finance (Pan-Hellenic Socialist Movement- PASOK) in 2011 when Greece accepted the austerity measures and the loss of its national sovereignty.
• George Papandreou — secret advisor of the Nazi puppet regine — Became prime minister three times — his son Adreas Papandreou (founder of the Pan-Hellenic Socialist Movement- PASOK) was also elected Prime Minister and his grandson George Papandreou (PASOK) was prime minister in 2011 when the financial crisis escalated in Greece
• George Simitis — was the national secretary of the Union of Greek Banks due to his friendship with George Mercouris , the leader of the Greek National Socialist Party — His son Kostas Simitis became prime minister of Greece with PASOK
• Thanos Karamanlis collaborated with occupiers. His cousin Kostadinos Karamanlis played a significant role in Greek Politics and society. He became Prime Minister and is the founder of New Democracy. Kostadinos Karamanlis himself has been accused of collaborationist activities and taking over of Jewish shops after Greek Jews from Thessaloniki were sent to Auschwitz. In 1959 he was very clear about his beliefs: “the struggle against communism in Greece is a struggle for racial and national purity”. His nephew also became Prime Minister with New Democracy.
• Karamanlis family, Papandreou family and Simitis have ruled Greece for more than 3 decades since the restoration of democracy in 1974.

Ask about the economic collaborators who profited at the expense of their starving compatriots:

• The richest Greek family today is Latsis. Their activities span from shipping owning, construction and banking. But their wealth started when John Latsis sided with the Germans and started betraying Greek Partisans. The Germans helped with his trade of goods. The current government of Greece in March 2014 erased a 220 million Euros debt from the Latsis family to the State.
• Aggelopoulos family sided with all sides — the Germans, the puppet regime and when he realized he had backed the wrong side he even supported the leftist government up in the mountains. His family today is one of the richest in Greece. In 2000 Giana Aggelopoulou was made head of the administration team for the 2004 Olympic Game s— one of the most corrupted events in Greek History that led the country to bankruptcy.
• Alexander Vernikos was also a collaborationist — his family is one the richest ship owners in Greece. His son a successful ship owner became Minister of Shipping in June 2012 in the Samaras government.

With whom do they side today? Which way do you image these folks will vote in the referendum? Is this the Greek character of which you speak?

Not living there like you, all I have is the hundreds of history books that have been written since and 35 years of study. A mere "theoretician" I lack the expertise you bring by virtue of your current address, but those musty tomes do seem to give me a slightly different, albeit entirely complimentary, view than yours of the Greek character.

See, when you told me I should live in Soviet Russia and began hectoring those whom you considered in disagreement, I recognized a familiar pattern of rhetoric. So indeed, the links and "American-centric" analysis do have some descriptive value in an "everything old is new again" sort of way. Like red-baiting and red-scares.

The KKE have seats in parliament, but no power. They have fewer seats that the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party who of late are expressing a good deal of power. No concerns there, apparently. Some of that power comes through Golden Dawn's connections to the police and security forces, but that's a comfort, no?

Given the Gladio revelations in Italy, it's safe to assume that some of the worst of these characters are on the government payroll waiting for their orders. Golden Dawn is a Nazi party but it is not a new Nazi organization. With different names, symbols and idols it has existed in Greece at least since the Metaxas dictatorship (1936). It is utterly entrenched in the Greek state and Greek political life.

Why? Because the same families who sided with the Germans are the same families who rule Greece today and accept these ideas and values. And when they perceived their interests are threatened, they can use them as force against liberals, atheists, leftists - all considered commies or fellow travelers by the Greek right, they make no distinction.

So the need for persecution has long since past. It was provided for decades ago by the Greek right through means of murder, imprisonment and exile. Those who remained were picked up by the Colonels in the next wave of rightists terror. And those today carrying the red banner either knowingly or naively fulfill their role in the "strategy of tension." Later, if the authorities find the need, they will come in handy for purposes of "special tasks" and scapegoating.

Greece today has a greater chance of being controlled by Martians than it does by Marxists. Nice try.

[lektrode]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

Good thing this Greek thing is an endless crisis. Gawd knows what all the pundits would have to write about if it ever ends..

portugal, ireland, spain, italy, france.....

and... not to be outdone:

Puerto Rico is a failed welfare state that needs a Detroit-like overhaul.

America’s Greece

July 2, 2015 7:29 p.m. ET
The Obama Administration is delighted to tell everyone that Greece isn’t America’s problem, but hold the schadenfreude. The U.S. has its own version of Greece in Puerto Rico, and the meltdown could be nearly as ugly when it arrives.

Puerto Rico Governor Alejandro Garcia Padilla this week admitted the open secret that the territory’s $72 billion debt “is not payable.”

[gnk]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

So according to your logic, pre-SYRIZA Greece was a Nazi Republic? Andreas Papandreou - was he a NAZI due to his paternal DNA, an anti Imperialist, or a Prime Minister that started the welfare state?

And all that information you just posted tells us exactly what about the current government?

I said it before, there is a significant element in SYRIZA that prefers a break from the EU and the creation of a Venezuelan type anti-neo liberal Republic managed by well read Marxists that can't manage a souvlaki tavern. They are the reason Tsipras will not be able to get any type of deal signed. They are the reason we are having the referendum.

One can be against both KKE and Golden Dawn, by the way. It actually is intellectually possible. vt's views are not exactly extraterrestrial.

And I do abhor the recycling of families in Greek politics. Greece is far from a meritocracy. But all leaders of Democracies have their patrons. So who knows if a true meritocracy is ever possible.

One can never understand the degree of corruption that exists in a country unless one actually lives there - and makes a living there. I have seen and heard a lot here. I was always aware of it, and shrugged it off in my analysis, until I moved here.

Really, live abroad - somewhere interesting. Really get into the culture. It will challenge and round out all that book knowledge. Most of all, you'll learn about the people and their society - something you will never fully get from books.

[gnk]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

Can't have one without the other. Closed banks freeze up commerce. I hope this doesn't continue for long.

[Woodsman]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

really, live abroad...

kma

[don]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

http://player.ooyala.com/player.js?

[jk]

Re: Will We All Be Greeks?

From a distance, nothing. Mostly, people are good at hiding their stress. Occasionally you'll hear arguments at some cafes. Just a couple nights ago, I heard someone telling his friends: "What do you think? Tsipras is Agios Vasilis (Santa Claus) with the ability to give you money? We're broke!"

The issue with visiting Greece, I hate to say, is if you get really sick. Not the place for those that rely on treatments. I have an uncle with cancer and I worry about him. I wonder if Stiglitz and Krugman and others thought of that in their economic analysis? It's not an easy choice, and one on the outside could never think of all the repercussions; they don't have to live the day after in Greece.

But anyway, I'm sure many here are asking themselves: "Why the hell is he in Greece?" Well, these are some images I downloaded from the internet. They are various locations on the island I reside in, Kefalonia:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5649[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5650[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5651[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5652[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5653[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5655[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5654[/ATTACH]

the problem is that the troika's demands, or so-called solutions, are not appropriate. why raise the tax rate when the problem is people not paying taxes at all? raising the taxes without structural reform just puts more of a burden on those who can't, or won't, cheat.

raising the vat while increasing unemployment makes tourism more expensive and more dangerous. how is this supposed to help?