Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

[seobook]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

This post is now 9 months old. Is there any update on the "new site" ?

For what it is worth, I run a membership site in a different niche (completely unrelated to investing & macro-economics) & the upgrade to vBulletin 5 was less than fun. I honestly wouldn't recommend doing it unless you have a full time staff working on maintaining the site, updating the software, etc.

But I don't think a new format or new underlying software really does much if EJ isn't regularly participating.

Communities tend to reflect the interests of their founders and leaders, and if those people step away then quite often online communities devolve into shouting matches. Look at how many of the recent threads here have been hard right vs hard left political ideology of late ... and that is among a site which encourages independent views of thought, highlights how widespread some of the scams are, points out that said scams are deeply tied into both main political parties, how both parties are agents of high finance against the rest of society (with the term FIRE economy), etc.

[Woodsman]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

hard right vs hard left political ideology of late ...

Hard left? Where? Show me the Trotskyist tendencies. Where are the CPUSA posts, the SWP posts? Any SDS posters around?

Surely if the "hard left" is represented here we would see more posts demanding perfect equality of outcome and the dismantlement of all forms of social stratification. And if there are hard left acolytes among us, there's bound to be at least one leaning harder left, endlessly posting calls to abolish all forms of hierarchy, all forms of inequitable distribution of wealth and power, using revolutionary violence and other so-called necessary means. Can you point to a couple?

Now I see posts calling for things like secession, natural hierarchies, theocracy, and virulent opposition to even the mildest forms of liberalism. I've seen posts supporting nativism, authoritarianism, and social conservatism. There's been posts against immigration, and even the occasional antidemocratic tendency.

Where are these hard left iTulipers? I want a word with them.

[santafe2]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

Hard left? Where? Show me the Trotskyist tendencies. Where are the CPUSA posts, the SWP posts? Any SDS posters around?

Surely if the "hard left" is represented here we would see more posts demanding perfect equality of outcome and the dismantlement of all forms of social stratification. And if there are hard left acolytes among us, there's bound to be at least one leaning harder left, endlessly posting calls to abolish all forms of hierarchy, all forms of inequitable distribution of wealth and power, using revolutionary violence and other so-called necessary means. Can you point to a couple?

Now I see posts calling for things like secession, natural hierarchies, theocracy, and virulent opposition to even the mildest forms of liberalism. I've seen posts supporting nativism, authoritarianism, and social conservatism. There's been posts against immigration, and even the occasional antidemocratic tendency.

Where are these hard left iTulipers? I want a word with them.

Woody, the rule is simple. You may be left of the iTulip social center if you don't conflate refugees with terrorists. That's not the iTulip community median but the theocratic nativists maintain a bully pulpit and it appears you're the last sane voice willing to engage them. You cannot reason with fear induced by a meager intellect.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

Woody, the rule is simple. You may be left of the iTulip social center if you don't conflate refugees with terrorists. That's not the iTulip community median but the theocratic nativists maintain a bully pulpit and it appears you're the last sane voice willing to engage them. You cannot reason with fear induced by a meager intellect.

I am genuinely surprised rational folks aren't pulling out comparisons with President Carter and the Mariel Boat Lift.

Anyone who lived in Miami in the early 80's care to comment on that awesomeness?

Isnt this supposed to be about Tesla?

[vt]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

Tesla will eventually fall to superior competition.

Unless you are a pure American Indian, we are all immigrants or descendants of immigrants, many of which were refugees from something where they came from.

[GRG55]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

Tesla will eventually fall to superior competition.

Unless you are a pure American Indian, we are all immigrants or descendants of immigrants, many of which were refugees from something where they came from.

Didn't the American Indians also migrate to the continent?

[BK]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

When my Irish relatives came here there was no Earned Income Tax Credit. No public schools with full of over paid Government employees, housing assistance, no Women Infant and Children Food assistance, no Food Stamps, no free health care, no free dental (including braces), no assistance for buying eye glasses, and certainly no preferential treatment when applying for schools or jobs (I forgot about 100% assistance with college because Colleges are all so anxious to diversify their student bodies).

There was no Federal Reserve with the ability to print money, keeping interest rates low, and providing environment where governments (state, Fed, county, city, town) can give as many freebies because there is no cost and no required trade off.

BTW - I have worked with Russian immigrants and Haitian immigrants - they are some incredibly hard working people among these new comers and they are a major life force for the country.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

BTW - I have worked with Russian immigrants and Haitian immigrants - they are some incredibly hard working people among these new comers and they are a major life force for the country.

1st generation immigrants tend to be outliers to the high/good side of successful entrepreneurial activity according to Thomas Stanley who has written a good few books on wealth/affluence in the U.S.

Back to Elon Musk, I think he's a 1st generation immigrant from South Africa.

But I'm pretty sure most of those 1st generation immigrants are ones who are typically better educated/vetted and help "average up" rather than "average down" the team.

[BK]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

I'm reminded of the story of when Caesar landed in Britain for the first time, first step in the invasion was to burn the boats. Caesar supposedly burned his own boats to give his men no option other than to be successful. I suspect 1st generation immigrants have this feeling of there are no boats and are forced to find a way.

Charles Ponzi was a 1st generation immigrant just like Elon Musk.

Charles Ponzi who was herald as a Financial Wizard as late as August 1920 and indicted on 85 counts by early October 1920.
;-)

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

When my Irish relatives came here there was no Earned Income Tax Credit. No public schools with full of over paid Government employees, housing assistance, no Women Infant and Children Food assistance, no Food Stamps, no free health care, no free dental (including braces), no assistance for buying eye glasses, and certainly no preferential treatment when applying for schools or jobs (I forgot about 100% assistance with college because Colleges are all so anxious to diversify their student bodies).

There was no Federal Reserve with the ability to print money, keeping interest rates low, and providing environment where governments (state, Fed, county, city, town) can give as many freebies because there is no cost and no required trade off.

BTW - I have worked with Russian immigrants and Haitian immigrants - they are some incredibly hard working people among these new comers and they are a major life force for the country.

Same with my relatives, BK.
Mine came to Minnesota from Norway, Denmark, Germany and Ireland.
But, to be fair, there was one huge government subsidy that my relatives took advantage of.
They were given 40 acres of farmland free of charge.

I just looked up the price of the good farmland in western Minnesota that my great-great grandfather Wilhelm and his brother Ernst each got.
Today that land sells for $9,000 per acre. Each 40 acre homestead is today $350,000.
So the brothers were handed $700,000 by the US government upon arriving.

One part of that land is still in the family. My cousin's widow holds about 40 acres of superb wheat farm land between Hitterdal and Hawley Minnesota.
Though she lives in Minneapolis, they rent the land for farming, and it generates enough to pay the taxes and a bit more.
So the land given to my immigrant ancestors is still producing cash money to the family 150 years later.

[Woodsman]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

Same with my relatives...

Same here! The five Trimble brothers Moses, James, John, David, and Alexander Trimble arrived from County Armagh in the 1740s and they didn't have a pot to piss in. They had nothing but intelligence, the determination to prosper and increase, and their Presbyterian faith. They had no Social Security, no unemployment benefits, none of that stuff, and they made it. By the time big brother Moses died in 1783, he held 347 and 1/2 acres, part of 92,100 adjoining John Huston on the Timber Ridge. His will was witnessed by Patrick Henry's brother-in-law William Russell.

Moses is progenitor of some 600+ descendants. One notable includes my cousin Robert Trimble who went on represent Bourbon County Kentucky in the US House of Representatives. While he was a politico, he hated politics and vowed to stay away forever (sound familiar?). But after refusing two nominations to the United States Senate, uncle Robert did serve as an associate justice on the Kentucky Court of Appeals but could not take the pay cut and so returned to private practice. President Madison appointed Uncle Robert to U.S. Attorney for the District of Kentucky. Then in 1826, President John Quincy Adams on the advice of Henry Clay appointed Uncle Robert to the US Supreme Court where he served as an Associate Justice under Chief Justice Marshall. Trimble County Kentucky and a nice picture at the Supreme Court is all we have from Uncle Robert. According to Great Grandmother Peggy (RIP), that branch of the family hit some hard times in the Panic of 1907 and the Great Depression about wiped them out.

Another of the five brothers, John, has something on the order of 460+ descendants. I don't have the records handy, but he did well for himself. His (great?) grandson Issac went on to receive a commission at West Point. Although it was Uncle Robert who nominated him, Issac did go on to distinguish himself during the Civil War where he managed the defense of Baltimore before the Union took the city. He made it to Virginia and accepted a commission in the CSA, serving as a brigade commander in the Army of the Potomac. Later he served with General Jackson at the Shenandoah Valley campaign and lost a leg at Manassas. At Gettysburg, he served first with General Ewell but the two did not get on well. Had they, Gettysburg would have turned out differently as Ewell would not have dismissed his advice to take Cemetary Hill (Culp's, actually) before the Yankees did . He had a temper, cousin Issac did.

And that's just the 19th Century. All that and no dole. If they did it, anyone can! Right?

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

I'm reminded of the story of when Caesar landed in Britain for the first time, first step in the invasion was to burn the boats. Caesar supposedly burned his own boats to give his men no option other than to be successful. I suspect 1st generation immigrants have this feeling of there are no boats and are forced to find a way.

Charles Ponzi was a 1st generation immigrant just like Elon Musk.

Charles Ponzi who was herald as a Financial Wizard as late as August 1920 and indicted on 85 counts by early October 1920.
;-)

Haha great post.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

Same here! The five Trimble brothers Moses, James, John, David, and Alexander Trimble arrived from County Armagh in the 1740s and they didn't have a pot to piss in. They had nothing but intelligence, the determination to prosper and increase, and their Presbyterian faith. They had no Social Security, no unemployment benefits, none of that stuff, and they made it. By the time big brother Moses died in 1783, he held 347 and 1/2 acres, part of 92,100 adjoining John Huston on the Timber Ridge. His will was witnessed by Patrick Henry's brother-in-law William Russell.

Moses is progenitor of some 600+ descendants. One notable includes my cousin Robert Trimble who went on represent Bourbon County Kentucky in the US House of Representatives. While he was a politico, he hated politics and vowed to stay away forever (sound familiar?). But after refusing two nominations to the United States Senate, uncle Robert did serve as an associate justice on the Kentucky Court of Appeals but could not take the pay cut and so returned to private practice. President Madison appointed Uncle Robert to U.S. Attorney for the District of Kentucky. Then in 1826, President John Quincy Adams on the advice of Henry Clay appointed Uncle Robert to the US Supreme Court where he served as an Associate Justice under Chief Justice Marshall. Trimble County Kentucky and a nice picture at the Supreme Court is all we have from Uncle Robert. According to Great Grandmother Peggy (RIP), that branch of the family hit some hard times in the Panic of 1907 and the Great Depression about wiped them out.

Another of the five brothers, John, has something on the order of 460+ descendants. I don't have the records handy, but he did well for himself. His (great?) grandson Issac went on to receive a commission at West Point. Although it was Uncle Robert who nominated him, Issac did go on to distinguish himself during the Civil War where he managed the defense of Baltimore before the Union took the city. He made it to Virginia and accepted a commission in the CSA, serving as a brigade commander in the Army of the Potomac. Later he served with General Jackson at the Shenandoah Valley campaign and lost a leg at Manassas. At Gettysburg, he served first with General Ewell but the two did not get on well. Had they, Gettysburg would have turned out differently as Ewell would not have dismissed his advice to take Cemetary Hill (Culp's, actually) before the Yankees did . He had a temper, cousin Issac did.

And that's just the 19th Century. All that and no dole. If they did it, anyone can! Right?

That's quite the pedigree.

Family money on my Mom's side, supposedly quite the fortune, was lost before even arriving in America from Scotland/UK.

My Dad's, Dad was a conscript soldier chased out of Turkey supposedly due to being Orthodox rather than a Muslim, although he sounds like he was a bit of a rogue scoundrel in his younger years so I'm a little skeptical of the religious persecution angle.

I emigrated myself a long time ago.

My bloodline seem to be disposed to high velocity immigration.

International slow motion Bedouin or Kuchi.

I think anyone can do it.

But can anyone do it successfully?

The he memes of indigenous peoples not having invited the white Devils is annoying.

It misses the point about indigenous people being unwilling/unable to defend their territory.

if you are unable/unwilling to defend what is yours, is it really yours?

History says otherwise doesn't it?

I wonder if a modern analog to "Guns, Germs, and Steel" will be written about this period of digital aged economic refugees?

[wayiwalk]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

I kind of look at it as all immigrants are 1st generation, after that, they're americans.

What is really interesting to me is the number of immigrants who later emigrated back to where they came from. That was true for my family on my mom's side. A handful went back during the 1920s as things weren't so great here by the end of the decade. I'm sure things didn't work out so well for them in Belorussia, which was tough place to be at that time. The streets were not necessarily paved with gold for everyone, and for some, it is a matter of homesickness....or going back to get married.....

Ok. I have some old photos. Since I don't think there are any photo participants who will mind, I am posting two of them below.

The first shows my grandmother in the early 1920's (that's my SWAG). She the young woman in braids in the second row on the far right. I understand she was one of the thousands drawn to American for the streets paved with gold. We all know she didn't find that, but there were opportunities for persons willing to work hard. She was the super for the apartment building she raised her family in, and her husband worked for NYC Dept of Sanitation. You need a strong back to lift barrels filled with ashes. I also understand she wanted to live somewhere where you could wear dresses and wear heels, and in her case, that meant sewing and making her own dresses.

photo 12.jpg

Which sets up the second photo.

Finally, in the late 1960s, she made her return trip to home, then the USSR, to visit family. She had to do it in the style she lived by. Here she is on the same farm, outside the same farmhouse, in dress, heels, and pearls (front row, far right). Ya gotta love it.

photo 3.jpg

Earlier in the year I read Angela's Ashes - a great book that includes plots lines of immigration and emigration.

There I go again, contributing to total thread drift.

[BK]

Re: Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla?

Regarding Indians/Native people not defending their land.

Read: Mayflower by Nathaniel Philbrick, http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/bo...anted=all&_r=0

Philbrick describes a influence of Tribal leaders (Indian politicians + Indian bureacrats) who were so focused on their own self interest that they often negotiated poorly for the tribes, as the Indian leaders were always trying to secure gifts and possession for them selves.

Yes, native people have the same troublesome politician class that exists in any society....what a surprise.