Burying Vietnam, Launching Perpetual War

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Burying Vietnam, Launching Perpetual War

pretty clear with his Oscar speech

It used to be different, of course. Before Michael Moore, there was Marlon Brando, who in solidarity with the showdown of armed activists of the American Indian Movement with federal marshals after they seized the town of Wounded Knee, South Dakota, sent a Native American woman named Sasheen Littlefeather to accept the best actor award on his behalf.

And then there was 1975, the most bizarrely political Oscar night of all.

Late in 1974 a director named Peter Davis showed a documentary called Hearts and Minds briefly in a Los Angeles theater to qualify it for Academy Award consideration. It opened with images of a 1973 homecoming parade for POW George Thomas Coker, who told a crowd on the steps of the Linden, New Jersey, city hall about Vietnam, “If it wasn’t for the people, it was very pretty. The people there are very backwards and primitive, and they make a mess out of everything.” General William Westmoreland, former commander of US forces, in a comment the director explained had not been spontaneous but had come on a third take, was shown explaining, “The Oriental doesn’t put the same high price on life as does a Westerner. Life is plentiful. Life is cheap in the Orient.” (Thereupon, the film cut to a sobbing Vietnamese mother being restrained from climbing into the grave atop the coffin of her son.) Daniel Ellsberg was quoted: “We aren’t on the wrong side. We are the wrong side.” The movie concluded with an interview with an activist from Vietnam Veterans Against the War. “We’ve all tried very hard to escape what we have learned in Vietnam,” he said. “I think Americans have worked extremely hard not to see the criminalities that their officials and their policy-makers exhibited.”

A massive thunderstorm raged outside at the Oscar ceremony at the Dorothy Chandler Pavillion on Oscar Night, April 8, twenty days before the final fall of Saigon to North Vietnam’s Communist forces—where after Sammy Davis Jr.’s musical tribute to Fred Astaire, and Ingrid Bergman’s acceptance of the best supporting actress award for Murder on the Orient Express, and Francis Ford Coppola’s award for best director (one of six Oscars for The Godfather Part II: “I’m wearing a tuxedo with a bulletproof cumberbund,” cohost Bob Hope cracked. “Who knows what will happen if Al Pacino doesn’t win”), Lauren Hutton and Danny Thomas opened the envelope and announced that Hearts and Minds had won as the year’s best documentary.

Producer Bert Schneider took the microphone and said, “It’s ironic that we’re here at a time just before Vietnam is about to be liberated.” Then he read a telegram from the head of the North Vietnamese delegation to the Paris peace talks. It thanked the antiwar movement “for all they have done on behalf of peace…. Greetings of friendship to all American people.”

Backstage, Bob Hope was so livid he tried to push his way past the broadcast’s producer to issue a rebuttal onstage. Shirley MacLaine, who had already mocked Sammy Davis from the stage for having endorsed Richard Nixon, shouted, “Don’t you dare!” Anguished telegrams from viewers began piling up backstage. One, from a retired Army colonel, read, “WITH 55,000 DEAD YOUNG AMERICANS IN DEFENSE OF FREEDOM AND MILLIONS OF VIETNAMESE FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM…DEMAND WITHDRAWAL OF AWARD.” On its back, Hope madly scribbled a disclaimer for his cohost Frank Sinatra to read onstage. Sinatra read it to a mix of boos and applause: “The academy is saying we are not responsible for any political utterances on this program and we are sorry that had to take place.” Upon which, backstage, the broadcast’s third cohost, Shirley MacLaine berated Sinatra: “You said you were speaking for the academy. Well, I’m a member of the academy and you didn’t ask me!” Her brother, Warren Beatty, snarled at Sinatra on camera: “Thank you, Frank, you old Republican.”

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Burying Vietnam, Launching Perpetual War

The noble cause of Vietnam never was and no rehash of discredited propaganda or revisionism about that little evening in 75 can change the facts of history.

Posting a man's actual recorded words is neither discredited propaganda or revisionism….it's just fact.

We negotiated a peace with the DRV and the telegram was a gesture of friendship from the emissary of a country we attacked under false pretenses, whose country we devastated and whose people we killed in the millions.

A negotiated peace that was clearly broken repeatedly with 2 conventional war invasions of South Vietnam that were ultimately successful. We all know who won that is indisputable, but many don't(or choose not to) remember how.

It didn’t say “Up with Ho” or “Yankee Imperialist Dogs” It was a greeting of friendship and given the nearness of their suffering and loss, a remarkable gesture of diplomacy. Of course it was lost on Hope and Sinatra. They couldn't stand it and it was they who turned it into a political event with their little pro-Nixon speeches that night.

Maybe Hope and Sinatra were more familiar with the many systematic atrocities committed by North Vietnam and their proxies. You're exceptionally good and accurate at pointing out atrocities on one side, and completely neglect the other. Most streets go two ways. Yours appear to be one way only.

No one can lay a finger on the documentary, least of all with discredited domino theory and irrelevant anecdotes about a Hollywood film producer whose biggest creative contribution was writing checks and watching dailies.

I noticed you didn't reply to the part about the many other checks he wrote to fugitives/murderers involved in political warfare.

Also, downplaying Schneider's role in the film indicates to me that he is an indefensible figure, which brings his personal credibility and bias into question.

I don't think it's a bad film, I just think it could have been far more effective if executed by folks with more balance and detachment, which are prerequisites for any documentary…the lack of balance and detachment, I think we call that propaganda

A century from now - if we've recovered our own hearts and minds by then, I pray - when all the facts about that time are finally known, Davis' documentary will be just as powerful and just and meaningful. It is a gift to the ages. It is an affirmation of life and truth in the face of the death mongers and war lovers. And that's why they hate it so passionately.

Do they hate the film? Or do they hate the "useful idiot" behind it? Personally, I'm not a fan of useful idiots. Your attempt to put distance between Schneider and the film is telling.

Here are a few things you might want to familiarize yourself with. Things like..

No need(although I'm always interested in reading more and expanding the knowledge base when time allows)…..as I've posted before about the missed opportunities with OSS DEER team.

I've read everything available about Deer Team in open source and I've also spoken at length to numerous folks within the US SF community who take a strong historical interest in the linkage between OSS OGs(including DEER Team) and today's ODAs

And the American's violation of the terms of the Geneva Conference, our takeover from the French as imperialists, the Gulf of Tonkin lie and our walk into that dark jungle of deceit.

How could it be that the martinets, the spy vs. spies, and summer soldiers failed to take advantage of knowledge gained at the cost of upwards of 2 million dead Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians and 56,000 dead Americans ? It sure seems so. A look around today and the only lessons learned by the militarists and their cloak and dagger snoops is how to..

prosecute a war without popular support
how to propagandize their people
and how co-opt the media to make sure the truth of war is never again exposed as it was by Vietnam.

On these they achieved a virtuosity unseen in modern history. Little wonder we begin 2015 as our 14th year of perpetual war.

I wore the uniform, I lost a family member in the war.

I know too many people who served and/or died there. I know far more who have served and/or died more recently, including funeral procession escort. I would strongly suggest maintaining some clinical detachment to avoid the clouding of judgement.

So give it a rest and go sell it somewhere else.

I'm not selling anything. NO matter how repeatedly attempt to portray me as a "war salesman".

I've posted a direct public quote and facts(closely related timestamps most have not considered as having a direct and easy to establish relationship) about a period where communist alignment and cooperation were at their zenith before falling into disarray.

I've also posted facts about OSS DEER Team, Ho Chi Minh, the US Declaration of Independence references, and the intentional/unintentional missed opportunities.


Nobody believes the lies anymore. One can be a patriot and a soldier and still stand up for the truth.

One can not only be a patriot and a soldier who stands up for the truth, but one can be a patriot and soldier who stands up for the truth with a balanced and unbiased perspective.

In my opinion, you seem to be validating Newton's Third Law as it applies to political extremism.

Your posts would indicate that you are mirroring what you so despise.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Burying Vietnam, Launching Perpetual War

It is always interesting when a valid question is raised; but never answered. We need to think this through. As I understand it, German journalists reported that they were convinced that the Kiev snipers were acting out a repeat of the CIA techniques used in the overthrow of Allende in Chile; that they were similarly trained and operated by the CIA. We have not heard any report, from any source, that has stepped forward to refute that report. Total silence.

On the other hand, assuming that the report was entirely false; one would assume someone would have been keen to refute; would have stepped forward with a detailed explanation of what actually occurred. What we got was silence.

My instinctive reaction has been to believe that the German report was essentially correct. To have tried to refute when there was a real possibility that someone could step forward and rubbish that attempt would be the worst of both worlds.

That it is always better, when your hand is in the pudding, (so to speak), to say nothing that could later be used against you.

I have said this before here in the UK in a previous comment in The Times; perhaps the best indication was Obama turning up very shortly afterwards at West Point to declare his support for his troops; who might have been inclined to a Coup de ta against the Obama administration for effectively destroying the credability of the US in permitting such action.

History will tell us what we may never find out for certain within anyone's lifetime here on iTulip.

Question Chris:

Does the CIA regularly/consistently comment on operations?

If not(outside of exceptional, political polling reasons), then isn't accusation based on a lack of refutation more than a bit unfair?

Unlike some here, I'm not taking a side in Ukraine.

But I am watching with great interest.

One great resource to follow to try to filter out some of the massive volume of information operations output and propaganda can be found here:

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ad.php?t=20179

Admittedly, it's focused on Russian info/cyber ops. But it gives a good indicator of the depth and breadth of the perception shaping from just one side.

But for anyone who claims to have a complete and accurate understanding of the conflict and who "the guilty party is", my response is the run away.

-----

As to the possible risk of a coup in the US, I think it might be worth looking at the broad and deep revolving door of senior military leadership and their replacements being accused with some degree of accuracy of being political beasts.

But senior military leadership having a strong political component rather than just meritocracy as found down low in the trenches has always been around I reckon.

[Woodsman]

Re: Burying Vietnam, Launching Perpetual War

One can not only be a patriot and a soldier who stands up for the truth, but one can be a patriot and soldier who stands up for the truth with a balanced and unbiased perspective.

In my opinion, you seem to be validating Newton's Third Law as it applies to political extremism.

Your posts would indicate that you are mirroring what you so despise.

Lake, we're both pissing into the wind here and I'm out of steam. Fundamentally, we are never going to share common ground on such matters and the merry go round is the most boring ride in the amusement park.

In the final analysis, your cohort has won a decisive victory, Vietnam aside. Your people have locked things up nicely and are making hay while the sun shines.

The thoughts and words of this old not so useful fool doesn't amount to a pile of ant turds in comparison and won't charge a damn thing. It certainly won't change the past and the future, well that belongs to your cohort now.

The rest is up to God and I will meet Him or His opposite in relatively short order. In very little time there will be no one left who remembers what life was like prior; no one left to counter the narrative your colleagues have created and the victory will be complete and total.

Enjoy it.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Burying Vietnam, Launching Perpetual War

Lake, we're both pissing into the wind here and I'm out of steam. Fundamentally, we are never going to share common ground on such matters and the merry go round is the most boring ride in the amusement park.

In the final analysis, your cohort has won a decisive victory, Vietnam aside. Your people have locked things up nicely and are making hay while the sun shines.

The thoughts and words of this old not so useful fool doesn't amount to a pile of ant turds in comparison and won't charge a damn thing. It certainly won't change the past and the future, well that belongs to your cohort now.

The rest is up to God and I will meet Him or His opposite in relatively short order. In very little time there will be no one left who remembers what life was like prior; no one left to counter the narrative your colleagues have created and the victory will be complete and total.

Enjoy it.

Your desire to portray me in some sort of conspiratorial light is becoming borderline disturbing.

Not for me, I just find it odd. More for you.

Just a bit of evidence that the never ending search for boogeymen is getting a bit too mentally unhealthy Spanish Inquisition-ey.

Finding real boogeymen is great.

Accusing people of being boogeymen who differ in a parallel search for, and understanding of, the boogeymen is counterproductive and unhealthy.

If you wish to avoid further wastage of time, may I suggest you refrain from posts clearly intent on baiting a particular response?

I'm here to learn, as well as to share.

I'm not here to be berated with hypocritical ideology or to willingly accept one extreme end of the spectrum berating the other equally ridiculous extreme end of the spectrum.

Sometimes I think forums(even healthy ones..or maybe especially healthy ones) require a response that's more like trademark/IP defence rather than mathematical averages.

If you don't defend it(the ideological/political centre), you lose it.

And we don't reach the middle(where most live) with a mathematical average in an ideological war conducted by the extreme ends of the spectrum. We just lose.

[Woodsman]

Re: Burying Vietnam, Launching Perpetual War

... We just lose.

I'm as nutty as grandma's fruitcake and flakey as a pie crust.

Gotta go now. Mom's calling me up from the basement.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Burying Vietnam, Launching Perpetual War

Stay gold Ponyboy ;)

[Chris Coles]

Re: Burying Vietnam, Launching Perpetual War

standard agency response to charges they care not to or can't refute

that doesn't make it true, just adds to the suspicion, along with the Chavez coup shooters, etc.

Totally agree; that doesn't make it true. However, in law, if anyone makes a statement against you that might be libel, for example, it behoves one to answer immediately to refute the statement. The longer you take to refute, the harder it is to convince a court of law that it is a libel.

By chance, last nights BBC Newsnight presented an interview of one of the snipers who appears to be greatly troubled by his involvement. They also added to the debate; one side blaming Russia, another the CIA. Having watched last night I am now leaning more towards a single rogue element instigating the actions. The question will have to remain; did anyone put them up to it?

Personally, while I understand how any American citizen might view Vietnam; my viewpoint stems from finding myself totally conflicted by Extraordinary Rendition and Torture to the extent that I have made a personal decision that I will not be associated, in any way, with any national leadership that supports such actions by their own administration.

One has to draw a line; that one is mine; I take full responsibility for striking it into the ground in front of me.