Do as we say, NOT as we do.

[lektrode]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

The Saudis BEGGED George W. Dumbass NOT to invade Iraq. They clearly saw that the greatest threat was Iran.

Terrorism is the price of empire. The Romans endured it, the British endured it, the French endured it and so did others on a lesser scale. It is the warfare of the weak, the conquered, and the subjugated.

Their message is: we aren't strong enough to throw you out, but we'll never let you eat your kill in peace.
Combine this with the dysfunctional nature of Islam and you get what we now have.

We have two choices: either become just like them - merciless, utterly ruthless and savage - only on a larger scale, OR (a novel idea) - give up the friggin' empire! Keep enough naval bases to ensure unhindered travel of the sea lanes, but otherwise withdraw.

We don't have to run the world and we can't afford to. Certainly not while our own economy is being hollowed out from the inside.
The mantra of "American Exceptionalism" and the utopian idea of Pax Americana is bleeding and bankrupting us.

And it takes our eyes off the rigged game of FIRE that's destroying us all.

+1

[Woodsman]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation".

Other translations include "intensified interrogation" or "sharpened interrogation". It's a phrase that appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods, as you can see above, are indistinguishable from those described as "enhanced interrogation techniques."

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dis...g/228158/#more

[vt]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

I fully agree Raz.

I also feel that if we are attacked , as we were by Al Qaeda, we must react. But we need to keep our nose out of the world where we shouldn't be.

We certainly didn't need to be in Bosnia or Iraq in 2002.

[vt]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

I wonder why the Democrat only report, supported by front page treatment by their propagandists in the press, left this out:

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com...drones-graphs/

Get the data: Drone wars

The Bureau's complete data sets on drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia.

Latest from this investigation

Get the data: What the drones strike

May 23, 2014 by Alice K Ross and Jack Serle - No comments
A full dataset and methodology showing what the drones attacked in Pakistan.

Get the data: Pakistani government’s secret report on drone strikes

January 29, 2014 by Bureau Reporter - No comments
Read the secret report showing the government’s assessment of over 300 strikes.

Get the Data: The Pakistan government’s secret document

July 22, 2013 by Chris Woods - 10 Comments
See the full leaked Pakistani report on CIA drone attacks.

Casualty estimates

Reported deaths and injuries

Pakistan 2004–2014
CIA Drone Strikes

Total strikes: 405
Obama strikes: 354
Total killed: 2,400-3,888
Civilians killed: 416-959
Children killed: 168-204
Injured: 1,133-1,706


Yemen 2002–2014
US Covert Action

Confirmed drone strikes: 72-84
Total killed: 371-541
Civilians killed: 64-83
Children killed: 7
Injured: 81-199
Possible extra drone strikes:101-120
Total killed: 345-553
Civilians killed: 26-68
Children killed: 6-11
Injured: 90-123
Other covert operations: 16-81
Total killed: 168-404
Civilians killed: 68-97
Children killed: 26-28
Injured: 22-115


Somalia 2007–2014
US Covert Action

Drone strikes: 6-9
Total killed: 16-30
Civilians killed: 0-1
Children killed: 0
Injured: 2-3
Other covert operations: 8-11
Total killed: 40-141
Civilians killed: 7-47
Children killed: 0-2
Injured: 11-21


Yes, Bush also used drones, but nowhere to the extent we've seen it in the past five years.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

I wonder why the....report...left this out...

Because it is a different topic.

[vt]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

"Different topic"?

We're dealing with the same terrorists, just in different ways. Perhaps the CIA should say "No innocent civilians were killed or injured by terrorist interrogations, and the terrorists were not injured or killed".

[lektrode]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

"Different topic"?

We're dealing with the same terrorists, just in different ways. Perhaps the CIA should say "No innocent civilians were killed or injured by terrorist interrogations, and the terrorists were not injured or killed".

its the same topic alright - but with or thru the lamerstream media's filter of 'subjective amnesia' that flatly refuses to acknowledge that most of whats happened since y2k is the failure of the clinton admin's policies/politix

such as?

treating the first bombing of the WTC as a 'criminal' matter, for the lawyers to deal with instead of the .mil/cia

an exec order that prevented the various intelligence agencies from comparing notes - when it mattered the most? (with the drafter of this same order popping up again in the runup to the 2nd wipeout of the century)

to the 'bipartisan' repeal of glass-steagal - which setup .com stock wipeout#1 in 2000-01 that tipped the economy into deep recession - even tho that was 'engineered' by that same admin's cronies from which ny bank ? (and kinda un-coincidently, which just pulled off another 'potential' 300 TRILLION dollar scam, mostly by the same crowd that was 'funded' the most by the very same merry bunch of banksters? (while they still have the power/control over 2/3 of the branches, instead of all 3, like they had in 2008-10 when wall st got the goldmine and main st got the shaft)

which then landed/dumped on geedubya&co - and from whom i dont recall ever hearing any of them piss n moan about 'what they inherited' ?

and when the risks became all too visible - to even the beltway's bozos - most of whom, in addition to voting AYE to taking out saddam - said that 'there was NO problemo with fan/fred and that it was all good' to have them buying up mortages from people who couldnt possibly pay a mortgage to get zero-down/teaser-rate multi-hundred-thousand dollar LIAR LOANS - on secratary salaries?

and then said that it was a 'failure to regulate' ?

and now - after 6 years have past - with NOT ONE PERP WALK, LITTLE TO NUTHIN IN THE WAY OF REAL PENALTIE$ - while their 'profits' are as large if not bigger than they were in 2007 ?

but they - in the lamerstream media - would just as soon ignore all those inconvenient 'historically minor details' - never mind the most INCONVENIENT TRUTH of them all - as the 'architect' of the latest failure of the dept of 'justice' policies/politix gets ready to walk out the revolving door to 'retirement' - while the media uses the latest in 'race relations' and/or 'marriage rights' as the purrfect distraction -

even as they 'look the other way' as round2 of the hil-n-bill show revs up

but yeah - its much more important to continue to bash the prev occupant, esp since it keeps 'the agenda' on track

[Ghent12]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

There is an easy answer- Don't do it, it doesn't work. Period.

As for the 3000 killed on 9/11, using them to justify torture is morally revolting.

It can work, and there is no legitimate doubt about that. The efficacy of any interrogation method has a lot to do with both the interrogator and the interrogated. However, the question of how effective these techniques are is not relevant. The relevant question is moral and ethical, and you are correct in your last sentence.

[vt]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

Why didn't key Democrats object to these interrogation methods when they were told in 2002 and 2003?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120801664.html

Why are they bringing this up now if they didn't object to it when fully briefed?

It seems like everyone is trying to CYA

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/pel...tured-denials/

[Ghent12]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

Why didn't key Democrats object to these interrogation methods when they were told in 2002 and 2003?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120801664.html

Why are they bringing this up now if they didn't object to it when fully briefed?

It seems like everyone is trying to CYA

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/pel...tured-denials/

CYA is exactly what is happening. Would you expect a politician to choose the morally correct course of action if it required moral courage? They are professionals, and that is not how they rise to the top of their profession.

[touchring]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

Terrorism is the price of empire. The Romans endured it, the British endured it, the French endured it and so did others on a lesser scale. It is the warfare of the weak, the conquered, and the subjugated.

Time has changed, terrorism won't be just an irritation in the foreseeable future.

Ever watch the Unthinkable? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unthinkable

[don]

Re: Do as we say, NOT as we do.

John Pilger, film-maker and award winning journalist, talks to host Afshin Rattansi about the headline events of the year, from CIA torture to the Ukraine crisis.