France to ban Diesel cars.....?

[dcarrigg]

Re: France to ban Diesel cars.....?

let's not overlook this nugget: the government will also be increasing the so-called TICPE excise tax on diesel by two per cent, bringing in an extra €807 million.

Yup. Same idea. Buy an $80k Tesla, they'll give you a $15k check. Buy a $20k Renault, pay more in taxes.

That's the trick to market incentives. Pigouvian taxes for the poor and middle class to drive their used beaters. Cash checks for the rich to buy a new luxury toy. Cigarettes get taxed; cigars are tax free. Sales tax exemptions for yachts to 'stimulate the industry'; fee increases at the DMV doubling the amount due to register a $1,000 used car. $50,000 incentive checks to put solar panels on a mansion, $0.03/kWh fee increase on ratepayers. It goes on all over the place.

[GRG55]

Re: France to ban Diesel cars.....?

This week I've learned that the Dutch government is imitating the exact same steps as the French government is towards diesel cars: Officially, they're saying that diesel passenger cars need to be banned/removed because of pollution issues with diesel engines.

However, I've read a much better explanation for both the French as well as the Dutch governments: diesel fuel is less heavily taxed than petrol in both France and the Netherlands. The governments cannot/dare not raise the tax on diesel fuel, as they are afraid to damage the transport sector that runs on diesel trucks.
Instead, they're trying to reduce the percentage of passenger cars with diesel engines, in order to maximize the taxation of fuel used by regular citizen.

This doesn't seem correct. It is not difficult to raise fuel taxes on private passenger vehicles buying fuel in small quantities at retail outlets, while avoiding commercial transport and bulk diesel fuel purchases, which is how trucking and bus companies purchase their fuel.

[DSpencer]

Re: France to ban Diesel cars.....?

Yup. Same idea. Buy an $80k Tesla, they'll give you a $15k check. Buy a $20k Renault, pay more in taxes.

That's the trick to market incentives. Pigouvian taxes for the poor and middle class to drive their used beaters. Cash checks for the rich to buy a new luxury toy. Cigarettes get taxed; cigars are tax free. Sales tax exemptions for yachts to 'stimulate the industry'; fee increases at the DMV doubling the amount due to register a $1,000 used car. $50,000 incentive checks to put solar panels on a mansion, $0.03/kWh fee increase on ratepayers. It goes on all over the place.

Sad but true. Once in place, it's nearly impossible to change. Campaigning to stop subsidizing electric cars and solar panels must mean that you hate the environment and don't believe in science. Closing tax loopholes requires you fight a vocal minority while the majority is largely apathetic and unaware of the exemption in the first place. Or if you suggest that all tobacco not be taxed extra in the first place then you must want people to die of lung cancer.

[dcarrigg]

Re: France to ban Diesel cars.....?

Sad but true. Once in place, it's nearly impossible to change. Campaigning to stop subsidizing electric cars and solar panels must mean that you hate the environment and don't believe in science. Closing tax loopholes requires you fight a vocal minority while the majority is largely apathetic and unaware of the exemption in the first place. Or if you suggest that all tobacco not be taxed extra in the first place then you must want people to die of lung cancer.

For me, it's not the taxation in the first place that is necessarily the issue. But there is some room for agreement here. The main problem I have is the unequal application of market incentives and disincentives by class.

To me the main issue is the galling disparity at how the taxation or incentives are applied. Market incentive arguments are fundamentally twisted. They all come from a position of assuming the moral and intellectual superiority of the wealthy. The wealthy must be granted "positive incentives" to "be more green" or whatever. So they are given cash incentives to behave in the manner policymakers wish. The poor must be punished and forced in line. So they are given mandatory emissions inspections and extra taxes on their old beater cars.

Market incentive arguments always go one way. They always say "Let's give rich folk a tax credit for buying a new car that pollutes less." Or "Let's tax cigarettes rather than cigars, because poor people need a financial disincentive not to smoke, and rich folks will smoke if they want anyways." Or "Let's provide a 10 year property and income tax break to get this big company in this specific industry to move here."

You never hear a market incentive argument go the other way. You never hear anyone say, "Let's give poor folk a tax credit for fixing their old cars to conform with emissions regulations." You never hear anyone say, "Let's tax expensive cigars rather than cigarettes, because rich people especially ought to know better than to smoke tobacco." Or "Let's provide a 10 year property and income tax break to get skilled poor and middle class workers in this specific industry to move here."

Market incentives can either discipline and punish or reward and coddle. But it seems to me, with what gets passed, the poor and middle class always get the discipline and punishment. The wealthy always get the rewarding and coddling.

[vt]

Re: France to ban Diesel cars.....?

Publicly financed campaigns are the solution. Poor people don't contribute to political campaigns.

You don't reduce unemployment by drastically increasing disability rolls; you don't reduce unemployment by extending unemployment benefits. We DO have to take care of people until jobs are created. We make sure they have food and shelter, but they want jobs and this system is not working. No more crony guaranteed loans to business start ups of campaign donors.

The government needs to work with business at all levels by reasonable regulation (with real teeth for crooks). Education needs to do much better; we pour massive amounts into schools and do not produce enough skilled employees.
We need to take care of the poor minorities already here, and not flood the system with millions more illegal immigrants. Blacks and many Latinos are really being hurt badly by these policies.

It's not a liberal or conservative issue; it's a jobs issue.

[santafe2]

Re: France to ban Diesel cars.....?

For me, it's not the taxation in the first place that is necessarily the issue. But there is some room for agreement here. The main problem I have is the unequal application of market incentives and disincentives by class.

To me the main issue is the galling disparity at how the taxation or incentives are applied.

You're correct that the average person buying solar panels for their roof or an electric car is not the median income earner in the US. The way the federal tax incentives work you are required to owe the amount of tax you intend to write down with credits. That is, if your electric car qualifies for a $7500 rebate you can only take that rebate if you actually owe that much in tax. The same is true for rooftop solar. If you pay some federal tax you can write this amount off over time but the payback becomes less effective.

As it stands, those who don't pay income tax or pay very little income tax must lease an electric car or a solar PV system so a 3rd party can use the tax benefits. Needless to say, the overhead is steep and leasing is almost never a good deal for the purchaser. The best programs I've seen are direct utility based incentives. The customer buys solar, assigns the incentive to the installer who discounts the cost. The utility verifies the installation before they put the system on line and make the incentive payment. There is no customer based out of pocket expense for the incentive.

[vt]

Re: France to ban Diesel cars.....?

Santa Fe, in all due respect the solar car or panel analogy is not a good one.

If cigarettes the poor smoke are heavily taxed then cigars should be taxed heavily too. However, I think that hard liquor is more taxed than beer.

But solar panels and other new technologies need first adopters to pay high prices for manufacturers to invest to build a lot more so that cost savings can then make these products cheap enough for all. Plus energy savings devices return great benefit to society in cost savings and national security.

"As it stands, those who don't pay income tax or pay very little income tax" They are not paying taxes anyway and many are getting the earned income credit. We do take care of the poor,

What we need to do is stop building billion dollar stadiums and giving excess benefits to campaign donors. We need to help industry create many more jobs in the private sector. This government is not doing that.

By the way, check the current budget: Of the $18 Trillion Federal debt, $5 Trillion is owed back to social security for funds the government borrowed. So the Federal employees get pensions (some approaching 6 figures) and retire sooner, and the private industry employee is stuck with social security that their current taxes have to go to paying back the government borrowing from their pension plan! So much for the lock box. Yes it's a pay as you go system, but it's one where no one should be able to borrow from.

[dcarrigg]

Re: France to ban Diesel cars.....?

You're correct that the average person buying solar panels for their roof or an electric car is not the median income earner in the US. The way the federal tax incentives work you are required to owe the amount of tax you intend to write down with credits. That is, if your electric car qualifies for a $7500 rebate you can only take that rebate if you actually owe that much in tax. The same is true for rooftop solar. If you pay some federal tax you can write this amount off over time but the payback becomes less effective.

As it stands, those who don't pay income tax or pay very little income tax must lease an electric car or a solar PV system so a 3rd party can use the tax benefits. Needless to say, the overhead is steep and leasing is almost never a good deal for the purchaser. The best programs I've seen are direct utility based incentives. The customer buys solar, assigns the incentive to the installer who discounts the cost. The utility verifies the installation before they put the system on line and make the incentive payment. There is no customer based out of pocket expense for the incentive.

The tax credits are perverse. The S-REC system in MA and similar solar carveouts of RPSs seem to be much more income independent.

[bungee]

Re: France to ban Diesel cars.....?

I'd guess the reason for this is a combination of the following possibilities:
- There are huge air pollution issues in large French cities (at least in Paris, Lyon and Grenoble). Politicians want to show the public they do something, regardless of the effectiveness of their decisions. The average age of cars in France is relatively high and old diesel engines emit a lot of pollutants. Hence diesel has a bad name and is an easy target for politicians.
- French car manufacturers might not be competitive with foreign car manufacturers in making cars with modern diesel engines? (I'd love to see some figures on this). The French government loves to protect their own market, and will introduce any type of absurd law required to do this.
- something else?

Diesel was loved by the global warming crowd and promised to be green and clean due to its reduced CO2 emissions. Unfortunately as with many things pushed by the green lobby it didn’t work out quite as they planned

The Great Car Con

Dispatches is Channel 4's award-winning investigative current affairs programme

Motorists were promised diesel would be the cheap, green fuel of the future, but it turns out that's not the case. Why did politicians encourage the 'dash for diesel'?



This will probably not play outside the UK without a proxy or VPN.