Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

[santafe2]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

...what caused inflation and he said "too much money". Neither the students nor the teacher even gave the answer a moment of consideration, and this is in a highly ranked IB school. (IB = International Baccalaureate ) The consensus in the class was that inflation was caused by increasing prices....

Teachable moment. Most people cannot distinguish a cause from an outcome.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

The thing which confuses me about libertarians in their 20's is that a lot of them, unless they are rich, would be financially (and probably emotionally) devastated if the policies they advocate for actually came to pass. Many of these younger followers have a chip on their shoulder, but are no where near savvy enough to survive in a wild wild west libertarian utopia. Austrianism for these people is akin to slitting your own wrists, because the deflation alone would wipe them out before they ever saw the magical recovery phase. If you're rich though, its easy to be a libertarian...because as the dust settles, you can buy anything you want for pennies on the dollar...but a lot of these college-aged students can hardly rub two pennies together. Blows my mind.

Libertarians in their 20s often equal dejected little middle class white boys rejected from art school...

The thing a lot of folks don't realize is that the whack-a-doodle youth - the weather underground equivalent - calls itself 'libertarian' or 'sovereign citizen' or 'anarcho-capitalist' now.

I have a feeling public employees know it first. They get bottles broken on them. But the general public still doesn't realize that the dangerously whacky young misfits that were definitely products of the left from the 60s-90s have been turning hard-right-anarchist these past 20 years - and growing faster every year to the point they're hitting critical mass in some towns.

Any philosophy that says, "legalize drugs, and here's your enemy!" whether that enemy is the state, minorities, or rich people is all the same. The formula never changes. Step 1: Promise weed. Step 2: Name scapegoat. Step 3: Rake in loyal followers.

This is why I've been really skeptical of Rand's moves vs Ron's lately. I'm telling you. If I had to give 2010s hippies a name, I'd name them, "libertarians."

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

Libertarians in their 20s often equal dejected little middle class white boys rejected from art school...

The thing a lot of folks don't realize is that the whack-a-doodle youth - the weather underground equivalent - calls itself 'libertarian' or 'sovereign citizen' or 'anarcho-capitalist' now.

I have a feeling public employees know it first. They get bottles broken on them. But the general public still doesn't realize that the dangerously whacky young misfits that were definitely products of the left from the 60s-90s have been turning hard-right-anarchist these past 20 years - and growing faster every year to the point they're hitting critical mass in some towns.

Any philosophy that says, "legalize drugs, and here's your enemy!" whether that enemy is the state, minorities, or rich people is all the same. The formula never changes. Step 1: Promise weed. Step 2: Name scapegoat. Step 3: Rake in loyal followers.

This is why I've been really skeptical of Rand's moves vs Ron's lately. I'm telling you. If I had to give 2010s hippies a name, I'd name them, "libertarians."

Can you point to a longread on this subject? Thanks.

[jk]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

The consensus in the class was that inflation was caused by increasing prices. .

did anyone ask, if inflation is CAUSED by increasing prices, what IS inflation? this is like saying rain is CAUSED by drops of water falling from the sky.

this isn't information instead of knowledge, this is stupidly conflating definition with cause.

[vt]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

DC, I think only a minority of libertarians fit your description. This is no different than a minority of liberals being radical leftists.

The libertarian philosophy wants less government but is not anarchist. Smaller, more efficient government makes sense. Any move that brings on deflation would be counter productive as that would necessitate more government spending.

There can be efficient libertarian governance that promotes growth and reasonable services.

None of us want radical solutions to our nation's problems. We need to refocus with ideas like the less FIRE and more TECI, and other excellent proposals.

[DSpencer]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

The thing which confuses me about libertarians in their 20's is that a lot of them, unless they are rich, would be financially (and probably emotionally) devastated if the policies they advocate for actually came to pass. Many of these younger followers have a chip on their shoulder, but are no where near savvy enough to survive in a wild wild west libertarian utopia. Austrianism for these people is akin to slitting your own wrists, because the deflation alone would wipe them out before they ever saw the magical recovery phase. If you're rich though, its easy to be a libertarian...because as the dust settles, you can buy anything you want for pennies on the dollar...but a lot of these college-aged students can hardly rub two pennies together. Blows my mind.

In other words, the thing that confuses you about other people is that they have different beliefs than you. You have the correct beliefs and they have the incorrect beliefs and you can't understand why. Is that pretty much what you are trying to say?

[verdo]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

DC, I think only a minority of libertarians fit your description. This is no different than a minority of liberals being radical leftists.

The libertarian philosophy wants less government but is not anarchist. Smaller, more efficient government makes sense. Any move that brings on deflation would be counter productive as that would necessitate more government spending.

There can be efficient libertarian governance that promotes growth and reasonable services.

None of us want radical solutions to our nation's problems. We need to refocus with ideas like the less FIRE and more TECI, and other excellent proposals.

If only this was the common view amongst libertarians...I just might jump on their bandwagon. Unfortunately, I have yet to see more than a handful of libertarians propose anything that wasn't devastatingly deflationary. It's not just the deflation that I worry about, which on its own is bad enough. I worry about what tends to arise after deflationary destruction. An often used example of fiscal malfeasance within the gold/silver community is the hyperinflationary period during the Weimar Republic, which is stated to have given Hitler his pulpit. However, I find myself having to point to the fact that Hitlers most significant gains, and actual rise to power came not during the years of Germany's hyperinflationary period in the early 1920's, but immediately proceeding the oft not talked about deflationary depression created by Heinrich Brunings far right policies (which were based on ultra-monetarist beliefs, which would be known as austerity today) of the early 1930's.

In other words, the thing that confuses you about other people is that they have different beliefs than you. You have the correct beliefs and they have the incorrect beliefs and you can't understand why. Is that pretty much what you are trying to say?

Not really. People can believe what they want. I would only became concerned if this hyperdeflationary strain of libertarianism became mainstream, but based on Ron Paul's 2012 campaign results, I can rest easy. No, my shock, as I stated, comes from the fact that the libertarian college students that I do happen to see tend to be either struggling financially, or relying mostly on their parents to pay the bills. They aren't part of the demographic which could actually survive and thrive from the deflationary dream scenario that older, wealthier, more vocal libertarians hope for (hence, why I equated it to slitting ones own wrists)

[vt]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

Verdo I concur with the views on deflation to some extent. While I agree with smaller, more efficient government I realize central banks must step in to keep economies from falling into deflation.

What appeals more are libertarian views on social issues that are freedom favored.

The ideal political system would take the best ideas from reasonable conservative-moderate economic views and liberal views on some, but not all social issues; imho.

[verdo]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

Verdo I concur with the views on deflation to some extent. While I agree with smaller, more efficient government I realize central banks must step in to keep economies from falling into deflation.

What appeals more are libertarian views on social issues that are freedom favored.

The ideal political system would take the best ideas from reasonable conservative-moderate economic views and liberal views on some, but not all social issues; imho.

Given what I see going on in the U.S. today, i don't even think a well read liberal would disagree with you in terms on the size of government today. How small may be up for some debate, but I do think it should be cut down to a more realistic size. What attracted me to libertarianism some years ago (before I dug deeper into it) was really their anti-imperialism, anti-police state, pro personal liberty ideas. But i just came to find the whole thing to be a double edged sword, especially when they start talking about things like ending the fed. A better slogan in my view would be "fix the fed." The federal reserve is in control of one of the most liquid markets in the world, with a credit creating engine that is second to none. Why put an axe to it (and central banks in general) without trying to fix/amend it first? The problem with it (and most other central banks), in my view, is that its controlled almost solely by phD professors who come from a single school of thought and operate on textbook theories and equations that sometimes lack any real world basis. A more balanced board, would probably yield better results

But your picture of what an ideal political system would look like is precisely what my world-view has become today

[DSpencer]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

Not really. People can believe what they want. I would only became concerned if this hyperdeflationary strain of libertarianism became mainstream, but based on Ron Paul's 2012 campaign results, I can rest easy. No, my shock, as I stated, comes from the fact that the libertarian college students that I do happen to see tend to be either struggling financially, or relying mostly on their parents to pay the bills. They aren't part of the demographic which could actually survive and thrive from the deflationary dream scenario that older, wealthier, more vocal libertarians hope for (hence, why I equated it to slitting ones own wrists)

Right, but presumably these libertarians don't share your premise that their policies would create a hyperdeflationary depression that would be financially and emotionally devastating to them. More likely they believe that these policies would be beneficial to them and are therefore advocating in a completely rational, self interested way. Their actions are consistent with what they believe and the only thing "shocking" is that their belief is different than yours.

It's like a pro life person saying they are shocked that a pro choice person would have an abortion since abortion is murder and they will burn in hell for it. Well if the pro choice person doesn't share that belief, their actions aren't really shocking at all.

You're just begging the question by assuming your premise (that libertarian policies will be devastating for these libertarians) is true and then feigning shock that someone would act in a way inconsistent with your premise. It would only be shocking if they shared your belief and advocated those views anyway. I think you'd agree that's very unlikely to be the case.

[verdo]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

Right, but presumably these libertarians don't share your premise that their policies would create a hyperdeflationary depression that would be financially and emotionally devastating to them. More likely they believe that these policies would be beneficial to them and are therefore advocating in a completely rational, self interested way. Their actions are consistent with what they believe and the only thing "shocking" is that their belief is different than yours.

It's like a pro life person saying they are shocked that a pro choice person would have an abortion since abortion is murder and they will burn in hell for it. Well if the pro choice person doesn't share that belief, their actions aren't really shocking at all.

You're just begging the question by assuming your premise (that libertarian policies will be devastating for these libertarians) is true and then feigning shock that someone would act in a way inconsistent with your premise. It would only be shocking if they shared your belief and advocated those views anyway. I think you'd agree that's very unlikely to be the case.

if you say so

[aaron]

Re: Libertarians Plan To Take Over New Hampshire

Most people cannot distinguish a cause from an outcome.

Is this really true?