What If The Republicans Win?

[dcarrigg]

Re: What If The Republicans Win?

Cap and trade markets are real. Black markets are real too. Healthcare exchange markets are markets. None of those are free markets (though some black markets come close). Not all markets are free markets--that's pretty basic.

Your definitions are a bit odd, and completely at odds with The New Book. Maybe that's why the colonists rejected your notions of King George's claims.

No true free market?

[LorenS]

Re: What If The Republicans Win?

It's not.



All the while I just think you are probably drastically, by orders of magnitude, underestimating non-state actors' ability to do harm.

I guess I feel the same about your estimate of the ability of state actors do do harm. To be clear, I'm thinking about Germany's holocaust, Russia's gulags, China's cultural revolution as well as the two world wars. Even the "slave markets" only truly thrived while they were "legal". That's where I'm coming from.

I also understand the implications of anarchy which are horrific.

To me government is like salt. It is absolutely necessary (I'm not libertarian), it's just best if you don't overdo it.

[Ghent12]

Re: What If The Republicans Win?

No true free market?

No, not using a reasonable definition of the term. It means free of the initiation of force and/or free of coercion. No such conditions have existed in the course of humanity, at least to my knowledge. It's a purely theoretical model, like Newtonian gravity and a massless, frictionless pulley of zero radius--useful in some contexts.

[don]

Post-Election Quiz

If you really think it matters which political party controls the U.S. Senate, please answer these questions. Don’t worry, they’re not that difficult:

1. Will U.S. foreign policy in the Mideast change from being an incoherent pastiche of endless war and Imperial meddling? Please answer with a straight face. We all know the answer is that it doesn’t matter who controls the Senate, Presidency or House of Representatives, nothing will change.

2. Will basic civil liberties be returned to the citizenry? You know, like the cops are no longer allowed to steal your cash when they stop you for a broken tail light and claim the cash was going to be used for a drug deal.

Or some limits on domestic spying by Central State agencies. You know, basic civil liberties as defined by the Bill of Rights and the U.S. constitution.

Don’t make me laugh–you know darned well that it doesn’t matter who controls the Senate, Presidency or House of Representatives, nothing will change.

3. Will the predatory, parasitic policies of the Federal Reserve that virtually everyone from the Wall Street Journal to what little remains of the authentic Left understands has greatly increased income and wealth inequality be reined in? Please don’t claim either party has any will or interest in limiting the Fed’s rapacious financialization. There is absolutely no evidence to support such a claim–it is pure wishful thinking.

4. Will the steaming pile of profiteering, corruption, waste, fraud and ineptitude that is Sickcare in the U.S. be truly reformed so its costs drop by 50% to match what every other developed democracy spends per person on universal healthcare? It doesn’t matter if ObamaCare is repealed or not; that monstrosity was simply another layer of bureaucratic waste on an already hopelessly dysfunctional system.

If you answer “yes,” please run a body scan on yourself to detect the biochips that were implanted while you voted Demopublican.

5. Will the influence of Big Money be well and truly banned from politics? If you answer yes, please pick up your tin-foil hat at the door.

6. Will the incentives in the Status Quo be reset to punish rapacious financialization and gaming the system and reward productive investment and labor? Before you answer, check out who’s buttering the Senators’ bread. Hint: Wall Street does not qualify as productive unless we’re talking about the production of life-draining parasites. Virtually none of the vast armies of skimmers and scammers, from those pursuing bogus disability claims to lobbyist leeches, will suffer any consequence.

Moral hazard is the Status Quo’s Prime Directive.

7. Will anything be done to dismantle the Neofeudal Debt-Serfdom known as student loans? You are delusional if you think either party has any interest in limiting the predation of an academic Upper Caste that came to do good and stayed to do well.

8. Will any prudent assessment be made of unaffordable weapons systems like the F-35 Lightning–$1.5 trillion and counting for aircraft that will soon be matched by drones that cost a fraction of the F-35’s $200 million a piece price tag? No way–parts of those insanely costly jets are made in dozens of states, so the pork is well-distributed. Never mind the plane is lemon, built to fight the wars of the past. It’s jobs, Baby–that’s all that counts. Never mind the $1.5 trillion–we can always borrow another couple trillion–the Fed promised us.

Do you really think the Senate controlled by either party will ask why the F-35’s price tag dropped to $120 million from $200 million? That’s easy–the revised estimate left out the engine and avionics. They’ll be added back in after the Senate approves open-ended funding.

If none of these key dynamics will change, you got nothing. Please don’t claim anything changes if one party or the other is in the majority. Anyone clinging to that fantasy is delusional.

If you doubt this, please retake the test.

[dcarrigg]

Re: What If The Republicans Win?

No, not using a reasonable definition of the term. It means free of the initiation of force and/or free of coercion. No such conditions have existed in the course of humanity, at least to my knowledge. It's a purely theoretical model, like Newtonian gravity and a massless, frictionless pulley of zero radius--useful in some contexts.

Just for the sake of waxing philisophic for moment, could the opposite definition exist? Can I claim there is not in reality a state, because markets always interact with the state, and that makes the state unpure?

I'm just wondering if extremist definitions are allowed to run both ways here if we're going to define terms in imagination-land rather than base them in reality...

[lektrode]

Re: What If The Republicans Win?

.... just wondering if extremist definitions are allowed to run both ways here if we're going to define terms in imagination-land rather than base them in reality...

yeah we really do need to come to some sort of agreed-upon definitions of the terms used in these discussions
(altho my fave def of 'liberals' is still the ones in the political class who think 3500pgs of frank-in-dodd is somehow an 'improvement' on the 30whatevah pgs that it replaced or 'updated' - never mind how 'affordable' care act does anything but jack up the cost of med ins to those who were already paying for it)

but - this one surfaced again:

[don]

Re: What If The Republicans Win?

Like the Mr. Natural feel of this one, Lek.

There was another one - a red-white-and blue donkey and elephant, added together equaled a red-white-and blue sheep. Couldn't share it - it was on the forbidden list.

[Raz]

Re: Post-Election Quiz

if you really think it matters which political party controls the u.s. Senate, please answer these questions. Don’t worry, they’re not that difficult:

1. will u.s. Foreign policy in the mideast change from being an incoherent pastiche of endless war and imperial meddling? Please answer with a straight face. We all know the answer is that it doesn’t matter who controls the senate, presidency or house of representatives, nothing will change.

2. will basic civil liberties be returned to the citizenry? You know, like the cops are no longer allowed to steal your cash when they stop you for a broken tail light and claim the cash was going to be used for a drug deal.

or some limits on domestic spying by central state agencies. You know, basic civil liberties as defined by the bill of rights and the u.s. Constitution.

don’t make me laugh–you know darned well that it doesn’t matter who controls the senate, presidency or house of representatives, nothing will change.

3. will the predatory, parasitic policies of the federal reserve that virtually everyone from the wall street journal to what little remains of the authentic left understands has greatly increased income and wealth inequality be reined in? Please don’t claim either party has any will or interest in limiting the fed’s rapacious financialization. there is absolutely no evidence to support such a claim–it is pure wishful thinking.

4. Will the steaming pile of profiteering, corruption, waste, fraud and ineptitude that is sickcare in the u.s. Be truly reformed so its costs drop by 50% to match what every other developed democracy spends per person on universal healthcare? it doesn’t matter if obamacare is repealed or not; that monstrosity was simply another layer of bureaucratic waste on an already hopelessly dysfunctional system.

If you answer “yes,” please run a body scan on yourself to detect the biochips that were implanted while you voted demopublican.

5. will the influence of big money be well and truly banned from politics? if you answer yes, please pick up your tin-foil hat at the door.

6. will the incentives in the status quo be reset to punish rapacious financialization and gaming the system and reward productive investment and labor? before you answer, check out who’s buttering the senators’ bread. hint: Wall street does not qualify as productive unless we’re talking about the production of life-draining parasites. Virtually none of the vast armies of skimmers and scammers, from those pursuing bogus disability claims to lobbyist leeches, will suffer any consequence.

Moral hazard is the status quo’s prime directive.

7. Will anything be done to dismantle the neofeudal debt-serfdom known as student loans? You are delusional if you think either party has any interest in limiting the predation of an academic upper caste that came to do good and stayed to do well.

8. will any prudent assessment be made of unaffordable weapons systems like the f-35 lightning–$1.5 trillion and counting for aircraft that will soon be matched by drones that cost a fraction of the f-35’s $200 million a piece price tag? No way–parts of those insanely costly jets are made in dozens of states, so the pork is well-distributed. Never mind the plane is lemon, built to fight the wars of the past. It’s jobs, baby–that’s all that counts. Never mind the $1.5 trillion–we can always borrow another couple trillion–the fed promised us.

Do you really think the senate controlled by either party will ask why the f-35’s price tag dropped to $120 million from $200 million? That’s easy–the revised estimate left out the engine and avionics. They’ll be added back in after the senate approves open-ended funding.

If none of these key dynamics will change, you got nothing. please don’t claim anything changes if one party or the other is in the majority. anyone clinging to that fantasy is delusional.

if you doubt this, please retake the test.

+1. ;_y;_tu

[don]

Re: Post-Election Quiz

;_y;_tu


what does this mean, Raz?

(Thanks, I guess)

[dcarrigg]

Re: What If The Republicans Win?

Lek, there were a few steps of the talkin' pyramid in between Gramm–Leach–Bliley in 1999 and Dodd-Frank in 2010. I like Dodd Frank a whole lot better than what it replaced, which was a whole lotta nothin'.

But anyways, don't take anything I said as a dig on the Republicans. I don't know of any Republicans who go quite so far as to say there has never been a free market in the existence of the world and it's just some philosophical anarchist ideal we can never live up to in reality. One thing I'll give both the legs of the floating eye - to be positive instead of negative for a change - is that they tend to be a bit more pragmatic than that.

Anyways, this should be a time of celebration for Team Red. That was a big victory - above and beyond the average 6 point midterm loss for the Pres' party in a 2nd term. Dust hasn't cleared yet, and I haven't done the math to be sure, but I don't think there's been this many Republicans elected since Reconstruction. That oughta be enough to put the Party! back in GOP. Let's just hope we can get both chambers on the same page enough to actually pass budgets and get some work done now - at least the basic stuff old Article 1 says they're supposed to do, but they haven't been, since they've been like a couple toddlers in a mud fight these past 4 years.

[astonas]

Re: Post-Election Quiz

;_y;_tu


what does this mean, Raz?

(Thanks, I guess)

emoticons can get garbled into their raw text equivalents when they sit on the edge of a formatting field.

From the text, I'd guess it was yes,( ) thumbs up ( )? Is that more or less right, Raz?

Perhaps emoticons will also improve with the new site?

[Ghent12]

Re: What If The Republicans Win?

Just for the sake of waxing philisophic for moment, could the opposite definition exist? Can I claim there is not in reality a state, because markets always interact with the state, and that makes the state unpure?

I'm just wondering if extremist definitions are allowed to run both ways here if we're going to define terms in imagination-land rather than base them in reality...

That all depends upon how you define a state. No definition I know of utilizes the criteria you describe which would render the state as being impure. The mere presence of free, voluntary interaction within a society does not render the state a philosophical construct--rather, you can claim that there is no state in reality because of a different reason, described below. A "pure" market would be a free market and would be free from force from all sources, including the state. A "pure" state would be perfect communism, where every aspect of life is decided through political will.

If you want to go further into the philosophical fray, consider these two truisms: a "state" is merely a group of people (defined variously) exercising their will through force; a "market" is merely a group of people (defined variously) exercising their will through voluntary exchange of things. You could say that the state and the market are like math: we can never look at or touch them, but they do exist in reality and we can understand them better through what we observe happening empirically.

[Raz]

Re: Post-Election Quiz

emoticons can get garbled into their raw text equivalents when they sit on the edge of a formatting field.

From the text, I'd guess it was yes,( ) thumbs up ( )? Is that more or less right, Raz?

Perhaps emoticons will also improve with the new site?

That's right. I placed two emoticons after my +1 and they looked fine.

Now all I see is this weird text!

[dcarrigg]

Re: What If The Republicans Win?

Wow. Dude, I pretty much wrote that last comment flippantly - kind of, well, to show, you know, that it's probably juuuuuuust a little bit nutty to define real world political things involving fallible people in such ideal ways they can only exist in Heaven and Hell.

But you kind of went with it...and so...I'm not sure what to make of that.

I guess I just see reality as a lot more gray than you? Never so black and white. Of course the market is full of force. Of course the state is full of force too. Of course lots of state interaction is voluntary. Of lots of market interaction is voluntary too. It's all mixed up, man. You kind of need both. This black and white stuff only works in a philosopher's utopian sketchbook.

Or at least that's my real world experience anyways...

[flintlock]

Re: Post-Election Quiz

If you really think it matters which political party controls the U.S. Senate, please answer these questions. Don’t worry, they’re not that difficult:

1. Will U.S. foreign policy in the Mideast change from being an incoherent pastiche of endless war and Imperial meddling? Please answer with a straight face. We all know the answer is that it doesn’t matter who controls the Senate, Presidency or House of Representatives, nothing will change.

2. Will basic civil liberties be returned to the citizenry? You know, like the cops are no longer allowed to steal your cash when they stop you for a broken tail light and claim the cash was going to be used for a drug deal.

Or some limits on domestic spying by Central State agencies. You know, basic civil liberties as defined by the Bill of Rights and the U.S. constitution.

Don’t make me laugh–you know darned well that it doesn’t matter who controls the Senate, Presidency or House of Representatives, nothing will change.

3. Will the predatory, parasitic policies of the Federal Reserve that virtually everyone from the Wall Street Journal to what little remains of the authentic Left understands has greatly increased income and wealth inequality be reined in? Please don’t claim either party has any will or interest in limiting the Fed’s rapacious financialization. There is absolutely no evidence to support such a claim–it is pure wishful thinking.

4. Will the steaming pile of profiteering, corruption, waste, fraud and ineptitude that is Sickcare in the U.S. be truly reformed so its costs drop by 50% to match what every other developed democracy spends per person on universal healthcare? It doesn’t matter if ObamaCare is repealed or not; that monstrosity was simply another layer of bureaucratic waste on an already hopelessly dysfunctional system.

If you answer “yes,” please run a body scan on yourself to detect the biochips that were implanted while you voted Demopublican.

5. Will the influence of Big Money be well and truly banned from politics? If you answer yes, please pick up your tin-foil hat at the door.

6. Will the incentives in the Status Quo be reset to punish rapacious financialization and gaming the system and reward productive investment and labor? Before you answer, check out who’s buttering the Senators’ bread. Hint: Wall Street does not qualify as productive unless we’re talking about the production of life-draining parasites. Virtually none of the vast armies of skimmers and scammers, from those pursuing bogus disability claims to lobbyist leeches, will suffer any consequence.

Moral hazard is the Status Quo’s Prime Directive.

7. Will anything be done to dismantle the Neofeudal Debt-Serfdom known as student loans? You are delusional if you think either party has any interest in limiting the predation of an academic Upper Caste that came to do good and stayed to do well.

8. Will any prudent assessment be made of unaffordable weapons systems like the F-35 Lightning–$1.5 trillion and counting for aircraft that will soon be matched by drones that cost a fraction of the F-35’s $200 million a piece price tag? No way–parts of those insanely costly jets are made in dozens of states, so the pork is well-distributed. Never mind the plane is lemon, built to fight the wars of the past. It’s jobs, Baby–that’s all that counts. Never mind the $1.5 trillion–we can always borrow another couple trillion–the Fed promised us.

Do you really think the Senate controlled by either party will ask why the F-35’s price tag dropped to $120 million from $200 million? That’s easy–the revised estimate left out the engine and avionics. They’ll be added back in after the Senate approves open-ended funding.

If none of these key dynamics will change, you got nothing. Please don’t claim anything changes if one party or the other is in the majority. Anyone clinging to that fantasy is delusional.

If you doubt this, please retake the test.

Thank you!