Will Corporations Write Off US Workers?

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Military and Trade

Divide and conquer. Slice and dice 'em any way you can, then run off with their wallets while they suspiciously eye each other. Boomers vs. Millenials. Public sector vs. private sector. Republican vs. Democrat. Cops vs. doughnut shop owners. Black vs. white. North vs. south. Urban vs. rural.

Keep them focused on anything but the fact that real GDP doubled in the last 40 years and precisely none of it went to the median household.

[santafe2]

Re: Will Corporations Write Off US Workers?

Well, to be fair, the broad brush paints both ways. You don't have to go far on the internet to see gen Y complain that boomers had better job prospects, position ladders / raises, pensions, and all sorts of benefits that gen Y will never know/get.

There's a lot of hate in gen Y for their parent's generation. And it looks like it goes both ways.

I think the stereotypes are like this:

Boomer stereotype about gen Y:
- selfish
- lazy
- entitled
- 'special snowflakes' who don't realize just how replaceable they are
- disloyal and manipulative, just in situations for themselves.
- job hop too quickly and recklessly

Gen y stereotype about boomers:
- selfish
- ignorant
- entitled
- grant themselves special benefits that neither their parents nor their children will ever receive
- destroyed the prosperity they inherited from the greatest generation and left gen Y with a mess
- stay in one job because of two-tier benefit structure where older workers are grandfathered into better benefits than younger ones.

It's funny how many of the stereotypes are the same in the end of the day.

Especially the selfish and entitled thing. I see those two slung from both sides all the time.

One says, "You should be happy to have a job, any job. I was always appreciative of my jobs." And the other responds, "You had good jobs with good benefits right out of high school and your generation sent them all overseas for a quick buck."

One says, "Why do you want to move back to grandpa's old crime-ridden neighborhood for that much money? It's just to hang out at those bars, isn't it? You waste too much money on that and eating out." And the other responds, "You built giant McMansions in boring culture-less suburbs with giant SUVs that suck up oil and giant lawns that suck up water for no reason."

One says, "I had student loans, and I paid them off just fine!" And the other responds, "Yeah, well the state covered tuition back then, but you wanted a tax break more than you wanted to keep that up!"

One says, "You've got to stay in your job for at least 5 years, work hard, and you'll be rewarded! Job hopping makes you look flakey on your resume." And the other responds, "It doesn't work that way anymore. There are no promotions except lateral moves. Benefits and pay only get cut with time. Companies show us no loyalty anyways. Why should we be loyal to them?"

One says, "Look how self-centered you are, with all this nonsense social media and pictures and blogs about yourself! Who wants to read all that?" And the other responds, "Self-centered? We're not the ones with the 72" television and a private swimming pool in our back yard because we look down at the Y!"

I think there's a bit of truth in all of these made-up remarks that each side makes to the other. And I think they all go overboard too.

There's definitely some generational tension brewing there, though.

There's a meme floating around the internet these days that shows a picture of a 20 year old kid from the 70s where the caption is "He's got it better than his parents AND his kids!"

I've also seen one that shows a bunch of millenials on their smartphones and it says, "I'm trying to get a job dad! I'm Networking! Spends 8 hours playing on facebook."

The truth is probably in between. Gen Y was dealt a crap hand. And odds are good they will be poorer than their parents.

But at some point they've got to step up and own it; quit whining, and do something about it.

It sounds like you have a narrative that works for you. That sort of hyperbole may work for CNN but I don't see any inter generational hate.

[santafe2]

Re: The Military and Trade

Divide and conquer. Slice and dice 'em any way you can, then run off with their wallets while they suspiciously eye each other. Boomers vs. Millenials. Public sector vs. private sector. Republican vs. Democrat. Cops vs. doughnut shop owners. Black vs. white. North vs. south. Urban vs. rural.

Keep them focused on anything but the fact that real GDP doubled in the last 40 years and precisely none of it went to the median household.

Who is slicing and dicing? Is it the media? The government? The Fed? The military? The energy business? Is it FIRE? Is it just the man? Are people in the US so dumb they'd just take it if it wasn't sort of working for them? Are the majority so stupid that they're just helpless and being duped? I certainly don't see a lot of protesting by that median family. Now that there's less racism, sexism, etc. artificially holding some people back, there's more competition for that median spot but it must be somewhat OK or people would do something about it unless that median person has some fatal flaw I'm missing.

One question though, I always thought the cops and doughnut shop owners had a thing for each other. They're fighting too? That's just not going to be pretty.

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Military and Trade

Who is slicing and dicing? Is it the media? The government? The Fed? The military? The energy business? Is it FIRE? Is it just the man? Are people in the US so dumb they'd just take it if it wasn't sort of working for them? Are the majority so stupid that they're just helpless and being duped? I certainly don't see a lot of protesting by that median family. Now that there's less racism, sexism, etc. artificially holding some people back, there's more competition for that median spot but it must be somewhat OK or people would do something about it unless that median person has some fatal flaw I'm missing.

One question though, I always thought the cops and doughnut shop owners had a thing for each other. They're fighting too? That's just not going to be pretty.

How often do you hear small business owners argue to cut pensions, pay and benefits for public workers like cops? Of course they are fighting. And that median spot is going down in real terms. There's more competition for less money. That's a surefire way to create a scramble. Get yours before the next guy gets his. Even if the next guy is youre bread and butter, it doesn't matter. The ship is going down unless you're in the top quintile. Has been for a long time. And nobody wants to go down with it. So they turn on each other.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Will Corporations Write Off US Workers?

It sounds like you have a narrative that works for you. That sort of hyperbole may work for CNN but I don't see any inter generational hate.

Of course it's hyperbole. And yet people repeat it. I think you're right to be skeptical of it though.

[santafe2]

Re: The Military and Trade

Thanks for the chart dc. Can you site the source? Are they adjusted for inflation?

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Military and Trade

Thanks for the chart dc. Can you site the source? Are they adjusted for inflation?

It's just showing % change over the 1993 level by year, so no inflation adjustment is required. That graph was from Sunday's New York Times. That's partly why it was on my mind...

[santafe2]

Re: The Military and Trade

It's just showing % change over the 1993 level by year, so no inflation adjustment is required. That graph was from Sunday's New York Times. That's partly why it was on my mind...

Linked is the source report. Turns out it's much more awesome to be Asian than Black in the US, no surprise. And while it might suck to be Black, it really sucks to be a kid with a single mother, 30% of them live in poverty. Surprising to see that no quintile has completely recovered from 2007, not even the top 5%.

Adjusted for inflation, here are the household income percentage changes over the last 40 years, 1974-2013:
Households at 10%: 0%
Households at 20%: 1%
Households at 40%: 5%
Households at 50%: 9%
Households at 60%: 15%
Households at 80%: 29%
Households at 90%: 41%
Households at 95%: 50%

According to the FRED database real GDP his tripled in that time. Google "FRED real GDP".

http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Ce...mo/p60-249.pdf

[astonas]

Re: The Military and Trade

America's top execs seem ready to give up on U.S. workers

"At what point does it become a rational business decision for American companies to write off most Americans?"

I am confused both by the use of the future tense in the title of this thread's OP, and the subjunctive mood in the article itself. It appears to me quite obvious that top execs already have given up, in a gradual process that began decades ago. Perhaps the aspect that is new is the capitulation to overt admission by the business press?


Regarding the difference in perspective between Gen Y and the baby boomers (disclosure: I myself don't belong to either generation.):


My take is that the abandonment of investment in the commons has had a dramatically smaller effect on baby boomers than on Gen Y, and so they will continue to perceive the world very differently. But when it comes to which perspective has a better understanding of reality, there is no contest.

Gen Y has correctly identified that corporations have no interest in helping them develop, and in the face of that, it is indeed stupid to spend a lot of time "paying dues" that can never see any return (since quarterly profits today take priority over staff development and retention to an extent not seen in generations). It is true that they want things upfront, but in my experience it is not because of a sense of entitlement, but because they are perfectly aware that what they see upfront is most likely all they will ever see. And Gen Y is not at all wrong in their belief that their employers are, in general, looking for ways to burn through, rather than retain, them. One may well criticize their responses during the hiring process as self-defeating given the perspective of potential hiring managers, but I think their assessment of the facts are in general far more accurate than those of older workers.

Similarly, baby boomers have correctly identified that most Gen Y have little interested in being "loyal" employees - since that is a fool's errand in today's environment, compared to the early careers of the boomers.

Consequently, to seek out young employees who "think like baby boomers" is to look for Gen Ys who are particularly ignorant of current business realities. This is not, in my opinion, a recipe for finding the best employee.

In other words, this isn't a difference resulting from a mere misunderstanding. Neither generation is wrong about the other. And since the lack of trust between generations is not unwarranted, it is also not resolvable simply through a better understanding of the other perspective.

The world has simply changed.

If there is a level of distinction that is based merely on misunderstanding, it is that Gen Y has no choice but to respond to the new, changed, world (since it dominates their livelihoods), while those already established in careers still have the option of remaining in denial a bit longer.

[Polish_Silver]

Boomers vs Gen Y

Actually, it's the "greatest generation" that got the best deal out of the entitlements and the economy. They left massive debts and liabilities in their wake.
The government and private sector pensions always assumed growth of populations and economies.

Population growth has slowed way down. Boomers will NOT be able to retire on their IRA's, 401k's.

(SEe Thornton "What if boomers can't retire". ) Meanwhile social security will be showing red ink in a few years, and medicare will need huge changes.

Housing will be in a long term bear also, due to the aging population.

Kotlikoff's "The coming intergenerational storm" discusses all this, but I haven't read it.

[Polish_Silver]

lack of loyalty

. . .

Similarly, baby boomers have correctly identified that most Gen Y have little interested in being "loyal" employees - since that is a fool's errand in today's environment, compared to the early careers of the boomers.

. . .

I agree that long term loyalty has vanished on both sides. But I don't think that's the only issue
at stake. A Gen Y was bragging that, during interviews, his cohorts ask if the company has a gymnasium.

Whether the relationship is long or short term, people of my age group would focus on what they could offer to the company. You were not supposed to discuss benefits until the company made an offer.

[flintlock]

Re: Will Corporations Write Off US Workers?

according to a recent atlantic monthly article, there are far too many fluff projects, and TOO MUCH homework.
If that article is correct, I would seriously consider telling your children not to do the fluff projects, and accept the lower grade, or raise hell at the school that students are wasting time and being graded on fluff. I am sure you are not the only parent noticing this.

Do taxpayers have any say in these things?

I can vouch there is too much homework as I have two seniors in HS. There seems to be the idea that loads of homework means you are a "tough" teacher. Lazy is more like it. My kids have missed out on a lot due to some of the ridiculous time demands doing silly homework projects. I almost feel guilty asking them to help out with chores around the house. Almost.

I've seen kids who dropped out of sports due to the heavy workload. Their social life is impacted. No time for family or church. Not sure the results justify the effort.

[Polish_Silver]

Time at stake

I can vouch there is too much homework as I have two seniors in HS. There seems to be the idea that loads of homework means you are a "tough" teacher. Lazy is more like it. My kids have missed out on a lot due to some of the ridiculous time demands doing silly homework projects. I almost feel guilty asking them to help out with chores around the house. Almost.

I've seen kids who dropped out of sports due to the heavy workload. Their social life is impacted. No time for family or church. Not sure the results justify the effort.

I think the time priorities of students (like everyone else) are a major question. Some of the sports are very time consuming. I was on the wrestling team one season, and the practice typically lasted from 3 to 6:30pm, plus another 3 hours on saturday morning. There is no way that does not interfere with study time. Sports are great for the students who excel in them, but they don't have much continuity to adult life. I think there is a danger of the school becoming "about sports" rather than about academics.

[DSpencer]

Re: Will Corporations Write Off US Workers?

I can vouch there is too much homework as I have two seniors in HS. There seems to be the idea that loads of homework means you are a "tough" teacher. Lazy is more like it. My kids have missed out on a lot due to some of the ridiculous time demands doing silly homework projects. I almost feel guilty asking them to help out with chores around the house. Almost.

I've seen kids who dropped out of sports due to the heavy workload. Their social life is impacted. No time for family or church. Not sure the results justify the effort.

I always had a major problem with homework as a student. To me the key issue is the distinction between "homework" and "studying". I define studying as the process of trying to actually learn the material. I define homework as the busywork assignments that students are forced to endure for credit in the class.

Many times homework is given a completion grade further emphasizing that just going through the motions is all they really want. The other side effect is that it's a way to equalize outcomes so that if 70% of your grade is based homework completion, class participation and attendance then it matters less what you score on actual tests of knowledge and ability.