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Inside the Debt Machine

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  • Inside the Debt Machine

    One afternoon in October 2009, a former banking executive named Aaron Siegel waited impatiently in the master bedroom of a house in Buffalo that served as his office. As he stared at the room’s old fireplace and then out the window to the quiet street beyond, he tried not to think about his investors and the $14 million they had entrusted to him. Siegel was no stranger to money. He grew up in one of the city’s wealthiest and most prominent families. His father, Herb Siegel, was a legendary playboy and the majority owner of a hugely profitable personal-injury law firm. During his late teenage years, Aaron lived essentially unchaperoned in a sprawling, 100-year-old mansion. His sister, Shana, recalls the parties she hosted — lavish affairs with plenty of Champagne — and how their private-school classmates would often spend the night, as if the place were a clubhouse for the young and privileged.

    So how, Siegel wondered, had he gotten into his current predicament? His career started with such promise. He earned his M.B.A. from the highly regarded Simon Business School at the University of Rochester. He took a job at HSBC and completed the bank’s executive training course in London. By all indications, he was well on his way to a very respectable future in the financial world. Siegel was smart, hardworking and ambitious. All he had to do was keep moving up the corporate ladder.

    Instead, he decided to take a gamble. Siegel struck out on his own, investing in distressed consumer debt — basically buying up the right to collect unpaid credit-card bills. When debtors stop paying those bills, the banks regard the balances as assets for 180 days. After that, they are of questionable worth. So banks “charge off” the accounts, taking a loss, and other creditors act similarly. These huge, routine sell-offs have created a vast market for unpaid debts — not just credit-card debts but also auto loans, medical loans, gym fees, payday loans, overdue cellphone tabs, old utility bills, delinquent book-club accounts. The scale is breathtaking. From 2006 to 2009, for example, the nation’s top nine debt buyers purchased almost 90 million consumer accounts with more than $140 billion in “face value.” And they bought at a steep discount. On average, they paid just 4.5 cents on the dollar. These debt buyers collect what they can and then sell the remaining accounts to other buyers, and so on. Those who trade in such debt call it “paper.” That was Aaron Siegel’s business.

    It turned out to be a good one. Siegel quickly discovered that when he bought the right kind of paper, the profits were astronomical. He obtained one portfolio for $28,527, collected more than $90,000 on it in just six weeks and then sold the remaining uncollected accounts for $31,000. Siegel bought another portfolio of debt for $33,388, collected more than $147,000 on it in four months and sold the remaining accounts for $33,124. Even to a seasoned Wall Street man, the margins were jaw-dropping.

    Paper Boys: Inside the Dark, Labyrinthian, and Extremely Lucrative World of Consumer Debt Collection, New York Times, Aug. 15, 2014
    Last edited by FRED; August 18, 2014, 10:00 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Inside the Debt Machine

    This was really interesting. Seems to me that once a creditor has charged off bad debt, the debtor has no real reason to pay.

    At my job we were grossly overcharged by the phone company (yay Qwest!) due to an error on the phone company's part. I worked with the phone company for six months trying to clear up their error. We finally gave up and switched to Cox, with Qwest insisting that we owed them money. Got hounded for that bill for over three years. The "debt" must have been sold multiple times, because once or twice a year the collections calls and letters would start all over again.

    Submitting reams of documentation showing why we didn't owe the debt was a waste of time. Hanging up worked best.

    Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Inside the Debt Machine

      So who is the final arbiter of debt? Once its sold and resold and sold twice who owns the debt, who decides when it is paid off? How do I know that a debt is legitimate or someone trying to shake me down. I have had these guys call before with bogus information. If the collectors are buying stuff from second hand shady characters how do they know that the information on their sheets is correct?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Inside the Debt Machine

        Originally posted by charliebrown View Post
        So who is the final arbiter of debt? Once its sold and resold and sold twice who owns the debt, who decides when it is paid off? How do I know that a debt is legitimate or someone trying to shake me down. I have had these guys call before with bogus information. If the collectors are buying stuff from second hand shady characters how do they know that the information on their sheets is correct?
        All good questions. You could ask for proof in writing and compare it to your records, I guess.

        But since the money collected wouldn't go to the original creditor who long since wrote off the loss, what's the point of paying the collections company that bought the debt for pennies on the dollar?

        Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Inside the Debt Machine

          What to do when debt collectors call?

          Bad Paper: Outsmart the Debt Collectors
          by Felix Salmon @felixsalmon
          Posted 08/12/2014, 02:09PM
          Updated 08/15/2014, 11:03AM


          Are you being hounded by debt collectors? You’re not alone. Once you go into debt -- even if it’s something as benign as paying for something with a credit card, or borrowing to go to college -- then you owe someone else money, and sometimes you’re not able to pay back everything you borrowed. And when that happens, the debt starts to get traded: the initial lender will write off the debt, and sell it to a collector. For example, if you borrowed money from a bank, but now the bank has written the loan off, then you no longer owe the bank but a debt collection agency. And the people who work for collection agencies can be very aggressive.

          Jake Halpern’s great new book, Bad Paper, an adaptation of which is published in The New York Times Magazine, follows a number of these collectors -- many with multiple felony convictions to their name -- around Buffalo, New York, the center of debt collections in the US. According to the Urban Institute, roughly 77 million Americans, or 35% of adults with a credit file, have a report of debt in collections. In some places, that number is significantly higher: In Las Vegas, for instance, it’s 50%1. Of that 35%, most do the wrong thing when approached by debt collection agencies. Their first instinct is to hang up the phone, to run away, to try to ignore the problem, which almost never works. What does work: Taking action like writing a letter to the company in question, instructing its representatives not to contact you. This generally does the trick -- until the collection agency sells your debt to yet another collection agency.

          As Halpern’s book explains, the unluckiest of debtors end up being taken to court by one of these agencies, in which case they have to show up -- or risk a default judgment being taken out against them, and their creditors given the opportunity to seize their bank accounts, their salaries, and just about anything else they own. When a debtor shows up to court, there’s a wrong thing and a right thing to do. The wrong thing is for the debtor to settle the case; the right thing is for the debtor to contest it, and ask the creditors to prove that they have title to the debt in question. Almost nobody does this -- but if the debtor does it, he will walk out of that courthouse without owing a penny. The reason? When lenders pass debt onto a collection agency, they don’t formally transfer title to the debt. That would be too expensive, given how little they are selling the debt for. So instead they just pass over a simple spreadsheet, with a debtor’s name and the amount of money he owes. And that spreadsheet will never stand up in court.

          In general, it’s a good idea for people to pay their debts. But there’s an exception to that rule, and that’s when those debts have already been defaulted on. At that point, a person’s credit score is completely shot, the people who lent the money have already written it off, and even if the debtor pays the collectors back in full, the original lenders won’t see any of the cash. So if a debt collector armed with nothing more than a spreadsheet and a phone number starts pestering you for money, treat him the way you would any other cold-caller looking for your cash: Tell him not to contact you any more -- and then, in the unlikely event that you receive a summons, tell him he has no title to your debt and that you’re not going to pay him a penny.

          Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Inside the Debt Machine

            Thanks shiny, you are a real asset to this site. I'm squirreling this one away. So with the "titling" of the debt, where is the title held? Some state recorders office? And I suppose if you don't want to pay the bill when the debt collector calls you could try to buffalo them into thinking there was a clerical error of some sort with the original owner and the debt was paid in full? When I was called about bad debts in the past, there was a case of mistaken identity. I think the original debtor moves on, then the debt collection agency does an internet search and when your name matches the debtor they call you. I guess you could try that smoke screen too.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Inside the Debt Machine

              One big issue is that many of the cases which end up in court go uncontested by the defendant and are won by default because the people who are being sued are completely unaware of the court hearing.

              An old trick used was to send the notification of the court date to an old address you know the defendant no longer lives at. But the current conditions have even devolved a bit from there. In Matt Taibbi's book The Divide he mentioned gutter notification services, where third parties are hired to claim notifications were sent & those services collect a small fee (say a couple Dollars or maybe $4 per record) and then they don't even send notification to an old address - they send nothing at all. They never make any attempt whatsoever to contact the person in debt:
              over 90% of debtors fail to respond to collection agency lawsuits. Those that don't respond and don't appear in court are technically in contempt by disregarding a summons. That gives the bill collector grounds on which to swear out a warrant.

              Believe it or not, it gets worse. Bill collectors are notorious for "gutter service." Gutter service occurs when a collector fails to serve you a summons prior to a lawsuit or intentionally sends your summons to the wrong address. If you aren't aware of the pending collection suit against you, there is no possible way for you to show up in court – and no way for you to compile a defense. The collection agency simply waits until you miss the hearing before filing for a warrant and sending the sheriff to pick you up.
              ...
              Even if the arrest was due to your failure to appear in court after being sued that does not mean that the bill collector had the legal right to sue you in the first place.

              Under normal circumstances, you could have the collection judgment overturned merely by filing a Motion to Vacate and using the expired statute of limitations as a defense. If you have to pay a portion of the debt to be let out of jail, however, you essentially hand the collection agency the ammunition it needs to legitimize its lawsuit.
              So on one end people are buying spreadsheets full of names & data that may or may not be valid, and when they are shut down for bogus practices the typical eventual outcome for them is maybe a $10,000 fine. The multi-million Dollar fines are quite rare & what is a couple million as a punishment for a company which has 1,500+ people pounding the phones? The people in those spreadsheets might go to jail because the entity suing them is a criminal.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Inside the Debt Machine

                Originally posted by charliebrown View Post
                Thanks shiny, you are a real asset to this site. I'm squirreling this one away. So with the "titling" of the debt, where is the title held? Some state recorders office? And I suppose if you don't want to pay the bill when the debt collector calls you could try to buffalo them into thinking there was a clerical error of some sort with the original owner and the debt was paid in full? When I was called about bad debts in the past, there was a case of mistaken identity. I think the original debtor moves on, then the debt collection agency does an internet search and when your name matches the debtor they call you. I guess you could try that smoke screen too.
                In my experience with the numerous debt collectors who tried to collect the Qwest bill, they don't care what you tell them or what documentation you send them. They don't have qualified employees who review the legitimacy of the so-called debt. They have only one job: to collect the money from the names on the spreadsheet.

                They'd call, I'd explain. Then they'd mail us a debt collection notice. It contained a form to dispute the debt. I filled out that form explaining why we didn't owe the money and sent it back, along with six months worth of highlighted invoices to back up our claim. I did it every month in response to every collection notice they sent. I did it in response to every phone call they made. There were at least 3-4 debt collection companies, each of whom hounded us for about six months before passing us on to a new company. Every one of them ignored the evidence.

                I finally pressured one to them to tell me what happened to all the material I submitted. She said they don't review dispute evidence, no one even looks at it. Their only job is to collect money. After that I stopped responding to them. Eventually they stopped hounding us.

                Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Inside the Debt Machine

                  Originally posted by seobook View Post
                  One big issue is that many of the cases which end up in court go uncontested by the defendant and are won by default because the people who are being sued are completely unaware of the court hearing.

                  An old trick used was to send the notification of the court date to an old address you know the defendant no longer lives at. But the current conditions have even devolved a bit from there. In Matt Taibbi's book The Divide he mentioned gutter notification services, where third parties are hired to claim notifications were sent & those services collect a small fee (say a couple Dollars or maybe $4 per record) and then they don't even send notification to an old address - they send nothing at all. They never make any attempt whatsoever to contact the person in debt:


                  So on one end people are buying spreadsheets full of names & data that may or may not be valid, and when they are shut down for bogus practices the typical eventual outcome for them is maybe a $10,000 fine. The multi-million Dollar fines are quite rare & what is a couple million as a punishment for a company which has 1,500+ people pounding the phones? The people in those spreadsheets might go to jail because the entity suing them is a criminal.
                  This is terrible!

                  Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Inside the Debt Machine

                    Originally posted by charliebrown View Post
                    Thanks shiny, you are a real asset to this site.
                    +1

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Inside the Debt Machine

                      You guys are so sweet. Glad I could contribute something useful. Where would we be without Don finding all these wonderful articles?

                      Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Inside the Debt Machine

                        Originally posted by shiny! View Post
                        You guys are so sweet. Glad I could contribute something useful. Where would we be without Don finding all these wonderful articles?
                        and...as i've often remarked = my fave way to read the NYT.

                        ;)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Inside the Debt Machine

                          Very well written article. Good find, Don. My response would be, "A plague on all their houses." What a catalogue of despicable behaviour from front to back. It's kind of comical, though, an up and coming banker finding out that it's filthy down in the gutters.
                          A very simple start to a more just situation would be a law requiring full disclosure of the details regarding the sale and purchase of the debt to the debtor, and a requirement that any summons be backed up by ironclad proof of delivery of same to the debtor. Proof of disclosure would be satisfied by proof of delivery of disclosure or an authorized voice recording of the debtor being fully informed, including the price the collection agency paid for the debt, and who they bought it from. In other words, transparency and accountability. If those requirements drive the bottom feeders out of business, so much the better.

                          In ancient Israel, God's law commanded that all debts were to be discharged every seventh year, the Sabbath year, thus providing a measure of relief and protection from oppression to the poor. Look up the word oppression in a concordance and you can discover what God thought of it and those practicing it and what their punishment would be at the hands of God Himself.
                          "I love a dog, he does nothing for political reasons." --Will Rogers

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Inside the Debt Machine

                            A very simple start to a more just situation would be a law requiring full disclosure of the details regarding the sale and purchase of the debt to the debtor, and a requirement that any summons be backed up by ironclad proof of delivery of same to the debtor.
                            You may have just legitimized selfies, photon!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Inside the Debt Machine

                              In my past two experiences with debt collectors, I informed the company that I was not the person of their records and had no knowledge or relationship to the debtor. That worked. Now I have to say I have not been called since around 2000, maybe times were "kinder and gentler" then. Maybe you submitting evidence shows a relationship between you and qwest and hence gives them something to work with as far as squeezing you. You identified yourself as the person on their spread sheet. If you have not changed addresses since the debt was attributed to you, it may be harder to use this defense.

                              As far as notifying the debtor ... shouldn't the court be responsible for notifying the defendant??? I'm sure the case has the address of the defendant as part of the paperwork. Just like any other case the defendant would be served a summons by a peace officer or registered mail or something. So i trust the plaintiff that he has made every effort to notify the defendant? and that makes sense???? where's our ever vigilant, protector of the people AG?

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