Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

[vt]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...e-least-16-ti/

[verdo]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

"By defending its nationals and boundaries?" Sounds exactly like what Hitler said before World War II.

Sorry, no right thinking individual who wants peace will support one country using military forces to forcefully take over sovereign territory. A pox on tyrants on the right and left.

My thoughts exactly. The last thing I or anyone wants is a new war to be started over this, which is exactly why I believe Russia is firmly in the wrong on this issue, as well as the west. The fact that you have Russian nationals living in ukraine shouldn't give Russia a free pass to roll in the heavy artillery. it's not their country, not anymore. Just as if there were Russian nationals living in Alaska, and they had problems with the U.S. government, Americans wouldn't appreciate Russia pulling out the history books and claiming rights to roll into Alaska because they owned it some time in the past, and under the pretext of helping their own in the same way hitler thought he was helping his own by invading Czechoslovakia. This is what I was referring to Woodsman, when I said you were drinking the Russia Today koolaid. It didn't have anything to do with your knowledge about Putin's history with the KGB. We all know about it, and i assumed you did too. My reference is to your current willingness to give Putin's choices in this current issue with Ukraine a free pass, as if Russia has every right to manipulate the internal affairs of an independent country. The only people who i see making the same kind of arguments to justify Russia's highly aggressive involvement in this situation would be Russia Today, hence when i mentioned them.

The way to true peace is not through the barrel of a gun

[Woodsman]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

My thoughts exactly. The last thing I or anyone wants is a new war to be started over this, which is exactly why I believe Russia is firmly in the wrong on this issue, as well as the west. The fact that you have Russian nationals living in ukraine shouldn't give Russia a free pass to roll in the heavy artillery.

You mean like the US did in the Mexican-American War, the various Argentine, Uruguayan, Panamanian, Nicaraguan, Columbian, Chinese, Formosan, Hawaiian, Egyptian, Korean, Haitian, Chilean, Brazilian, Philippine, Honduran and Dominican incursions? These were all launched on a pretext to protect US interests and nationals. And that's just the 19th Century. Tell you what, here's a list of all US military operations since 1775. It might be easier if we just highlight the ones that didn't use the protection of nationals and interests as their rationale.

it's not their country, not anymore. Just as if there were Russian nationals living in Alaska, and they had problems with the U.S. government, Americans wouldn't appreciate Russia pulling out the history books and claiming rights to roll into Alaska because they owned it some time in the past, and under the pretext of helping their own in the same way hitler thought he was helping his own by invading Czechoslovakia. This is what I was referring to Woodsman, when I said you were drinking the Russia Today koolaid.

c.f. above.

It didn't have anything to do with your knowledge about Putin's history with the KGB. We all know about it, and i assumed you did too. My reference is to your current unwillingness to see that Putin's choices in this current issue with Ukraine is wrong and unjust, just as the western powers were wrong to try and manipulate the political atmosphere in the way they did to create a favourable outcome for themselves. The only people who i see making the same kind of arguments to justify Russia's highly aggressive involvement in this situation would be Russia Today, hence when i mentioned them.

Verdo, it doesn't have anything to do with anything. We're the targets of an international information operation run by two of the biggest purveyors of the art. The more we talk about it, the more we dig in to our collective mental bunkers, the more we play into their expert hands. I said when this first started that we were doomed to argue about who's propaganda we prefer best. And it's a fool's errand to try and swim against the current when your country seems hell bent on war, this I know. The role of the citizen in wartime is to line up, shut up and sacrifice.

And as you and VT so exquisitely demonstrate, dissent is treason so I am accused of thoughtlessly mouthing Russian propaganda, making me either a dupe or a fifth-columnist. I doubt very much either of us will convince the other, but it would help if you could try to avoid calling me a Russian stooge or fellow traveler. As you know, all our conversations are monitored and stored in perpetuity by the authorities and it would oh so easy for some bored contractor years down the line to get the wrong idea. (Nobody here but us loyal, peace loving Americans, gents and ladies. Thanks for your service.)

If we are to persist with this line, the only way to move forward is to refer to those actualities we can confirm and at the very least cease and desist with the over the top Hitler references. Our only option for making this a productive conversation is to trust in our personal and collective ability to discern propaganda and sift out fact from personal opinion.

Me, I rely on the records of history and my personal experience to look for truth wherever I can find it. I note patterns of behavior and start from the understanding that the overt statements and policy pronouncements of all states are generally 180 degrees from their actual purpose and intent. What do you do?

Really, this thread is in mid shark jump and frankly the level of argument from you and VT on this subject insults my intelligence. And that's on top of the insult heaped upon my patriotism and loyalty to my country. But I understand that this is how things will be moving forward and I thank you for giving me a taste of what is to come. We might want to read up on the founding of the Creel Commission and the run up to the First World War with regard to public opinion in wartime. I have and you may trust that I will adapt myself to these realities.

The way to true peace is not through the barrel of a gun

It depends who's holding it on you and who drew first. But I'm no pacifist. I don't have enough guts, courage or faith to be.

[verdo]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

Woodsman, you consistently bring up how bad the americans have been in the past and present, as if I've claimed that Russia is the only country at fault here, or that America has been the standard of excellence in world affairs. Since you're becoming concerned about your intelligence being insulted, i wont quote myself on the times that i have stated that neither side has it right, which includes the USA. But you are more than free to quote me showing where exactly I made a comment that convinced you that the following is what I'm doing:

And it's a fool's errand to try and swim against the current when your country seems hell bent on war, this I know. The role of the citizen in wartime is to line up, shut up and sacrifice.

I'm actually curious, because I don't recall even saying one good thing about the American involvement in this conflict at all. I don't even have a strong motive to act this way, because I'm not even American. Its fine that you made this mistake about my nationality, as you wouldn't know unless i stated so, but calling out Putin doesn't equate to being pro-USA/NATO on issues concerning foreign policy. Hell, my whole involvement in this thread started with a pro-BRICS bank comment. But I look at things at a case by case basis, and judge accordingly

My simple argument has been that Russia is not in the right, just as the USA has not been in the right on this issue. I don't need to worry about picking "who's propaganda we prefer best," because I've already identified myself as not bowing my head to the justifications both sides have made to excuse their involvement in Ukraine. But what vt and myself are saying is that Putin making the justification to interfere in the politics of Ukraine based on historical claims to the land and a few of the people in it is pure garbage, and reminiscent of the justifications Hitler gave to his own involvement in countries that did not belong to Germany. And there is no need to pretend that anyone here said that Putin is just as evil a person as Hitler was. A comparison in one area of foreign policy can be made without making any further extrapolations about Putin's character. The actual take away point is that the last time actions like this were attempted on the world chessboard, it lead to WWII

One can study history until the next changing of the age. It doesn't alter the fact that Ukraine no longer belongs to Russia, and as an independent country, Ukraine has a right to its own self determination. That's just tough love for Putin. If a nuclear war ever did break out over this, God forbid, the USA would level that country to the ground just as badly, if not worse than what the Russians could do to the USA. So much so that any victory in such a conflict would taste just as bitter as defeat. So in this case, no...it doesn't matter which side is holding the gun, because provocation by one will induce the retaliation of the other. Any sort of military escalation of this conflict by any side is an irresponsible use of power, and it could lead to something that everyone would regret.

[Raz]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

The idea that I am willing to give Putin a pass or overlook his obvious criminality and the implications of his time as a KGB officer is utterly preposterous and a fairly cheap shot, if I might say. This is not a popularity contest and neither are we looking for saints. We take the world as it is and I have no illusions about politics in Russia or at home. Frankly, I consider it a red herring as nowhere did I characterize Putin as you assert.

Putin may well be a thug and the "grand thief of Moscow" as David Stockman put it - but that matters NOT ONE BIT to me or to the national or economic security of the United States. I attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday with two families from Ukraine: they don't like Russia, BUT they don't want a war with her and are willing to allow the Crimea to go back to Russia!

Khruschev "gave" the Crimea to the Ukrainian S.S.R. in the mid 1950s as he was trying to gain favor with the politbureau and solidify his hold on power over Bulganin after the death of Stalin in March 1953. Sebastopol is the ONLY year-round port Russia has, and thanks to the numb-nut foreign policy of Billy Boy Clinton and George W. Dumbass Putin doesn't want to entertain the possibility that when he travels there to inspect his fleet he could end up shaking hands with NATO sailors.

My concern is to avoid a third European war, particularly one between NATO and Russia. You see, I grew up in a time when that was a BAD, BAD THING and something we all worked really hard to avoid.

Russia is NOT the Soviet Union. She has fielded no offensive forces to threaten Western Europe or our vital interests there.
These Neocon Nitwits in charge of our "foreign policy" (actually the bankers' foreign policy) are juggling dynamite.

Still, it seems to me that we are rushing blindly towards a European war and completely discounting the existential nature of the threat as perceived by Russia. Howzat for strategic thinking? Our planning, if it could be called that, shows no concern as to the geopolitical and internal political realities that the Russian leadership face in their decision making. Our concern here is not because we think they're swell guys, although the Russians seem to approve of their leadership far more than we do of ours. It's just better that way if the goal is avoiding a hot war or proxy war between NATO and Russia as that would be a disaster, an incalculable error and potentially the final failure. It makes sense not to back the Russians into a corner, but hey that's just me and 50 years of Cold War strategery.

I TOTALLY agree.

I do not want another war. I do not want to see my loved ones and neighbors' children come back in body bags. We've had enough of them over the past ten years, thanks very much, and if this thing gets out of hand no one can know how it ends except in disaster. There is no national interest at stake in Ukraine and we are being lied to on a daily basis by our leadership. This will make the third (fourth?) time in 50+ years we have gone to war under false pretenses, and people are concerned about democracy and self-determination in Ukraine, of all the places? Really, the log in our eye is blinding us.

Ukraine has been part of Russia longer than California has been part of the United States. If Ukraine can even be called a national state it has a complex history and is very divided between the western portion which is Roman Catholic (made so by force and threats of force, eventuating in the Orthodox there becoming Uniates), and the eastern portion which is majority Russian and Eastern Orthodox. And we are being played for fools by even bigger fools - the Neoconservatives - and helped along propaganda wise by the extensive historical and foreign policy erudition of blowhard ignoramuses like Bill O'Reilly.

... I am aware of the tragic history of Russia and Ukraine and the Second World War. It was my privilege to study under men and women whose life experience and scholarly achievement in these very domains make the two of us seem like a pair of bar stool drunks. You are of course entitled to your opinion and I thank you for expressing it so clearly. But if it's pedantry we're engaging in then allow me: Putin is not Stalin. The Soviet Union no longer exists. The threat of the international communist conspiracy is no more. The people east of the Dnieper consider themselves Russian and look to Putin as their protector. You don't have to like that or think it's a great idea. I don't think it's a great idea, and frankly I bet Putin wishes there was some way he could offload them to someone else. But to deny that these people have been a part of Russia since the Kievan Rus and the late 800s is as O'Yeah!, People's Temple down with Jim Jones Kool-Aid as it gets, brother. And it's been running down your shirt since about two minutes after you heard the word "MH17".

I couldn't agree more about contemporary Russia and its history with Ukraine.

We are bumbling into war and it will be our country who loses the most in the end, even if some putative victory can be made to happen on the battlefield and this I doubt with all sincerity. Adventures such as this are the death of empires, republics and democracies across history starting with Athens. I take offense at your slander but disappointing as it is, it does not surprise me in the least. You'll know nothing about the time I spent in service to my country. I am a patriot and I do not want us to be a party to this madness. I'd say I cannot for the life of me fathom why otherwise right thinking people don't understand this, but that would be dumb. We all know why.

Woodsman and I usually disagree - but this time I'm in complete agreement with him.

I doubt that anyone on this forum is more Anti-communist than am I - but that has NOTHING to do with this present madness! Our foreign policy has been a DISASTER since Reagan left office. Reagan was NOT a Neocon!
He knew that we had no vital national interests in Eastern Europe and probably turned over in his grave when Madelyn Halfbright convinced the Neocon Republican fools in the Senate to expand NATO right up to Russia's borders!

Please read the attached interview (PDF) with the very man who developed the US strategy of containment against the aggressive threats of Stalin.
I understand and totally agree with the late Mr. Kennan. He knew what he was talking about and didn't jabber just to hear his head rattle - unlike the nitwits in the White House and State Department who are presently in charge.

Stalin started the Cold War, but Billy Clinton and "W" re-started it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_F._Kennan

[vt]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

+1

[don]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

Now go eat your freedom cabbage . . .

(note, in 1917 German-Americans were the 2nd largest ethnic group in the country)

[jpatter666]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

Woodsman and I usually disagree - but this time I'm in complete agreement with him.

+1 (looking outside for rain of frogs and seven days of darkness.....)

[jk]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

as should be clear from my prior posts, i'm with raz and woodsman in the analysis of the ukraine situation. otoh, i doubt very much that there will be a european war. [i know, i know, that's what everyone said prior to ww i]. i think the long history of mutual deterrence between the u.s. and russia's predecessor-state [the ussr], as well as the community of interest between russia and germany, will serve to prevent that particular catastrophe. otoh, i expect ever increasing proxy conflicts between the us and russia, and between the us and china.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

Unless one thinks NATO forces in armed conflict with Russia on its historical back door is a good idea that will end well for the West, shouldn't all people of goodwill everywhere who want peace stop deploying themselves as conduits for warmongering propaganda?

It seems to me that by such efforts we are working diligently to ensure that our children and grandchildren lie dead and wounded on yet another distant battlefield. And this time we will see our daughters come back maimed or in flag draped aluminum coffins.

The way to peace is truth and truth has no nationality and salutes no flag. We cannot afford another disastrous war. Please stop beating the war drums unless you yourself intend to take up arms and send your own sons and daughters.

I would posit that there is a war going on over Ukraine.

It's simply NOT the massive conventional combined arms war in the Fulda Gap that NATO and Warsaw Pact planners had prepared for at the cost of trillions of dollars(and very likely could have gone nuclear in days anyway).

Here's a really interesting take from someone with considerable and relevant Cold War experience over at Small Wars Journal:

here are the eight phases of the new Russian UW strategy doctrine and then ask yourself---there is no perceived threat to the US and or US global interests especially when the new Chinese military doctrine "Three Stages of Warfare" mirror a similar tone and theme.

Now look at the phases and ask yourself---how many and which ones have seen being implemented in the Ukraine and Crimea? Then ask which ones can be used in the Baltics, Moldavia and Georgia?

The phases of new-generation war can be schematized as (Tchekinov & Bogdanov,
2013, pp. 15-22):

First Phase: non-military asymmetric warfare (encompassing information, moral, psychological, ideological, diplomatic, and economic measures as part of a plan to establish a favorable political, economic, and military setup).

Second Phase: special operations to mislead political and military leaders by coordinated measures carried out by diplomatic channels, media, and top government and military agencies y leaking false data, orders, directives, and instructions.

Third Phase: intimidation, deceiving, and bribing government and military officers, with the objective of making them abandon their service duties.

Fourth Phase: destabilizing propaganda to increase discontent among the population, boosted by the arrival of Russian bands of militants, escalating subversion.

Fifth Phase: establishment of no-fly zones over the country to be attacked, imposition of blockades, and extensive use of private military companies in close cooperation with armed opposition units.

Sixth Phase: commencement of military action, immediately preceded by large-scale reconnaissance and subversive missions. All types, forms, methods, and forces, including special operations forces, space, radio, radio engineering, electronic, diplomatic, and secret service intelligence, and industrial espionage.

Seventh Phase: combination of targeted information operation, electronic warfare operation, aerospace operation, continuous airforce harassment, combined with the use of high precision weapons launched from various platforms (long-range artillery, and weapons based on new physical principles, including microwaves, radiation, non-lethal biological weapons).

Eighth Phase: roll over the remaining points of resistance and destroy surviving enemy units by special operations conducted by reconnaissance units to spot which enemy units have survived and transmit their coordinates to the attacker's missile and artillery units; fire barrages to annihilate the defender's resisting army units by effective advanced weapons; airdrop
operations to surround points of resistance; and territory mopping-up operations by
ground troops.

I reckon the Cold War simply isn't over and never really ended.

It was just on pause(on the Russian side until Russia could get off the mat after a near knockout blow) for a time.

Unconventional Warfare is currently being conducted and that's the part I was specifically talking about in terms of the unwritten history of Cold War Europe, mostly Eastern Europe and peripheries.

Instead of fax machines, photo copiers, etc being facilitated with the help of the Catholic Church into Poland in the 70's/80's to fracture the Warsaw Pact, today there's considerably enhanced capability to do the same type of things but now faster/cheaper/better thanks to the internet.

I really don't foresee a broad west/east conventional clash.......if even only due to the fact the horribly massive conventional force structures that peaked in the late 80's simply do not exist anymore...thankfully!

But the unconventional warfare space is receiving considerable investment by all sides.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

Putin is doing more and more to marginalize russia from the whole world, and its kinda sad to me because it really will poopoo even further on the legitimacy of the new BRICS bank which I had some high hopes for, even though the countries starting it aren't exactly friends of the west. But the world really needs more institutions like this to challenge IMF dominance. But thee world Russia pushes the Ukraine issue, the more BRICS will start to look like an rouge element in the world, and people will bite the bullet with IMF over a deal which may be a little more reasonable under a competing agency. Now i hear that Medvedev is banning imports from the EU, USA, Canada, Australia and Norway, as if doing that hurts those countries more than it hurts Russian citizens. When they do things like this, it only makes the west a much closer and more tightly knit bloc. When issues like the USA spying and using double agents within Germany should be bigger issues, they are swept under the rug because Russia presents itself as a unifying element that both the USA and EU can focus their anger/frustration on. Not to say that the Western role in ukraine is genuine and out of pure altruism either, but if i were Putin...I really wouldn't have let this thing escalate to the point where Russia would get kicked out of the G8. It will be interesting to see how things play out on this Ukraine issue in the months/years to come. I've been so preoccupied with the israeli-palestine conflict that I almost forgot this stuff in ukraine was even going on

pretty ******* smart. I'll be paying closer attention to your posts from now on.

[don]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

I've been so preoccupied with the israeli-palestine conflict that I almost forgot this stuff in ukraine was even going on

You're not following the script. The Ukraine is supposed to distract you from the Warsaw Ghetto replay in Gaza.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

You're not following the script. The Ukraine is supposed to distract you from the Warsaw Ghetto replay in Gaza.

For real?

I just don't see the Palestinian/Israel issue having anywhere near the tangible value to anywhere near the same number of people as the unconventional war over influence/control over Ukraine/Eastern Europe and th associated energy politics.

Does Gaza have any pipelines or legitimate claim to offshore megafield resources?

http://www.economist.com/news/middle...iterranean-too

However, Ukraine and other regional border states at risk of falling under increasing Russian influence again do host some very substantial pipelines for supplying Western Europe with a good chunk of it's energy.

No offense, but doesn't logic dictate that if one crisis was being used to mask another it would be the other way around from your post?

Personally, I see a resurgent(if more vaneer than sustainable substance) Russia and it's clash with the US(and to varying degrees with NATO partner states) to be a continuation of the Cold War after a 2 decade intermission.

If you include US, Russia, chunks of NATO and Eastern Europe you're looking at over half a billion mostly 1st world or close 2nd world folks.

Compared to the circa 10 million in Israel/Palestine without the same energy geopolitics does it stack up?

It's not an attack on you, but a legitimate question because your post has me scratching my head a bit.

[Raz]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

You're not following the script. The Ukraine is supposed to distract you from the Warsaw Ghetto replay in Gaza.

The analogy falls flat. The Jews herded into the Warsaw Ghetto weren't firing rockets onto German civilians. They were waiting to be taken to the gas chambers and had no where else to go because even if the Nazis would have allowed them to leave no other country would allow them to immigrate.

I'm not a Zionist by any means and I don't like the suffering inflicted upon the Palestinians, but for the most part they have no one to blame but themselves.

[vt]

Re: Putin's Pointless Move On Ukraine Leaves It A Vassal To China

+1