Rule of Law? Or the Rule of Men.

[Polish_Silver]

OECD are not banana republics

Does Mississippi and every country in Central America count?



The U.S. ranks at 26th in life expectancy out of 34 OECD countries
U.S. adults lag behind in literacy skills compared to other countries
US slips further down global ranking of world's competitive economies
US middle class sinks to 19th place, below Japan, Canada, Australia and much of Western Europe
US in 46th place out of 180 countries in survey of press freedom
DHS estimates immigrants (legal and illegal) comprise 20 % of inmates; foreign-born 15.4% of adult population



A Banana republic is a political science term for a politically unstable country, whose economy is largely dependent on exporting a limited-resource product [e.g. FIRE and war?]. It typically has stratified social classes, including a large, impoverished working class and a ruling plutocracy of business, political, and military elites. This politico-economic oligarchy controls the primary-sector productions to exploit the country's economy.

.

The OECD are not banana republics. If you are ranked among them, you are not a BR.

The US economy is not "largely dependent" on FIRE and war.

Those sectors are certainly too large, but the US is not comparable to a petro state or countries where most of the income derives from agricultural exports.

Labor unions in the manufacturing sector have been very supportive of large defense budgets, which brought defense contracts to their sector.

Our health care system is less efficient than Japan, but that does not make the US a BR.

I take a boiling pot of water from the stove. I take another one from the freezer. Tomorrow morning, both of them will be at room temperature. But at the moment I can scald my right hand in one and numb my left in the other.

A declining middle class and ineffectual federal government is not the same as being a banana republic. If you can't see the difference, visit Guatemala again. Try calling 911 there and see what happens.

[Woodsman]

Re: OECD are not banana republics

... If you can't see the difference, visit Guatemala again. Try calling 911 there and see what happens.

Okay, Polish. It seems pretty important to you so I am pleased to have it your way.

Everyone, Polish is right and I was wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. The US is not a banana republic.

All that stuff I said, all those stories I linked, all that data; fuggetaboutit. The US is not a banana republic. It's the land of the free and home of the brave, the land of milk and honey, the indispensable nation, the exceptional nation, the greatest nation in the history of the human race; it's the new world, the shining city on the hill, the New Jerusalem, the promise land.

It is not a banana republic and it's better than Guatemala. Way better. Okay, the west side of Greenville, SC might look a little like parts of Guatemala City but that doesn't make it a banana republic.

Now I hope you have a glorious Independence Day this July 4th, Polish. And may God bless the United States of (not Guatemala) America!

[lektrode]

Re: Rule of Law? Or the Rule of Men.

Great series of posts, Raz.

+2

[Polish_Silver]

Revisiting Guatemala

Woodsman,

Have you ever set foot in Guatemala?

The tiniest shopping center has a guard with a semi-auto shotgun. I go on a zip line ride and there is a soldier with sniper rifle and binoculars behind me looking for drug traffikers.

The worst neighborhood in Greenville is comparable to probably half of Guatemala city.

Most middle class people in Greenville do not live in gated communities.

In Guatemala, they do. And even with that they have concrete walls and razor wire around their houses.

The wealthy around here live on public streets, their front yards are not even fenced.

In the touristy Antigua Guatemala there are beggars everywhere.

Are Americans, even those from South Carolina, queuing at the Guatemalan embassy to get green cards to work in Guatemala?

Does Guatemala have a Boeing factory under construction?

Does Guatemala invent revolutionary auto tires?

[Woodsman]

Re: Revisiting Guatemala

Woodsman, Have you ever set foot in Guatemala? The tiniest shopping center has a guard with a semi-auto shotgun. I go on a zip line ride and there is a soldier with sniper rifle and binoculars behind me looking for drug traffikers. The worst neighborhood in Greenville is comparable to probably half of Guatemala city. Most middle class people in Greenville do not live in gated communities. In Guatemala, they do. And even with that they have concrete walls and razor wire around their houses. The wealthy around here live on public streets, their front yards are not even fenced. In the touristy Antigua Guatemala there are beggars everywhere. Are Americans, even those from South Carolina, queuing at the Guatemalan embassy to get green cards to work in Guatemala? Does Guatemala have a Boeing factory under construction? Does Guatemala invent revolutionary auto tires?

Context, friend. Everything happens within a given context. To understand the present, try to understand the past. The present in Guatemala started in 1954 when the Last, Best Hope for Mankind overthrew the democratically elected government and installed a brutal puppet regime. And all on behalf of United Fruit Corporation.

But of course, the Free and the Brave did it for the good of the people of Guatemala to protect them from communist oppression. That and the stock options of the Dulles brothers:

John Foster Dulles, who represented United Fruit while he was a law partner at Sullivan & Cromwell – he negotiated that crucial United Fruit deal with Guatemalan officials in the 1930's – was Secretary of State under Eisenhower; his brother Allen, who did legal work for the company and sat on its board of directors, was head of the CIA under Eisenhower; Henry Cabot Lodge, who was America's ambassador to the UN, was a large owner of United Fruit stock; Ed Whitman, the United Fruit PR man, was married to Ann Whitman, Dwight Eisenhower's personal secretary. You could not see these connections until you could – and then you could not stop seeing them.

In context, it might be that the sorrows of the Guatemalans have some teeny weeny itsy bitsy, oh so tenuous connection with the Indispensable Nation after all.

In 1966, Julio César Méndez Montenegro was elected president of Guatemala under the banner "Democratic Opening". Mendez Montenegro was the candidate of the Revolutionary Party, a center-left party which had its origins in the post-Ubico era. During this time rightist paramilitary organizations, such as the "White Hand" (Mano Blanca), and the Anticommunist Secret Army (Ejército Secreto Anticomunista) were formed. Those groups were the forerunners of the infamous "Death Squads". Military advisers from the United States Army Special Forces (Green Berets) were sent to Guatemala to train these troops and help transform its army into a modern counter-insurgency force, which eventually made it the most sophisticated in Central America.

I like how the wiki article uses sophisticated as a synonym for insanely violent war criminal.

In any case, the gun toting soldier/cop, the tiny and terrified middle class, and the concrete and concertina wire didn't just pop up out of the ground one day. Context makes all the difference, don't it? But I'm sure it will never happen here. That stuff is only for banana republics, which as I said we are most definitely not, even though unsophisticated people like me sometimes get confused about it. Even people in South Carolina get confused.

But hey why worry about it when the Palmetto State - a bastion of free thinking innovation if there ever was one - is inventing new tires. Go USA! And here I thought Michelin was French company. As for Boeing, it's just too bad for the folks in Washington that they don't have visionary leaders like Nikki Hailey to stick it to those unworthy middle class union workers. But really, it's the sheer cognitive power of South Carolinians that sealed the deal.

The hundreds of millions in tax giveaways was just an afterthought.

"What I'm saying is, if you come to South Carolina, the cost of doing business is going to be low here. We are go going to make sure that you have a loyal, willing workforce and we are going to be one of the lowest union-participation states in the country."

Hold on now; I just got an idea. What if Boeing moved south again, only this time to Guatemala? After all the Guatemalan elites have decades of experience in ensuring a loyal, willing workforce and they take their union busting really serious down there. It would be a disappointment for the loyal and willing workers in South Carolina, but that's the price of exceptionalism, no?

[Polish_Silver]

What are we discussing?

Context, friend. Everything happens within a given context. To understand the present, try to understand the past. The present in Guatemala started in 1954 when the Last, Best Hope for Mankind overthrew the democratically elected government and installed a brutal puppet regime. And all on behalf of United Fruit Corporation.



Hold on now; I just got an idea. What if Boeing moved south again, only this time to Guatemala? After all the Guatemalan elites have decades of experience in ensuring a loyal, willing workforce and they take their union busting really serious down there. It would be a disappointment for the loyal and willing workers in South Carolina, but that's the price of exceptionalism, no?

I thought we were discussing the relative status of workers in South Carolina vs Guatemala.
Have we changed to discussing US intervention in Guatemalan politics?

The Tweels were invented in Michelin's North American Headquarters, about 5 miles from where I live. This county has as many or more engineers per capita than Silicon Valley.

There were times when US corporations did build factories in Guatemala. Corporations do not seek out high wage locations unless there is some compensating factor. I'd say the future of the automotive industry is brighter here than in Michigan, which is blessed with strong labor unions and dysfunctional corporate management. I have talked to people who were members of those unions. The work rules were so restrictive that engineers could not use a screwdriver.

I don't know much about the labor legal environment down here. But I do think the availability of jobs counts for a lot.
A high paying job that doesn't exist doesn't help you much.

[Woodsman]

Re: What are we discussing?

I thought we were discussing the relative status of workers in South Carolina vs Guatemala.
Have we changed to discussing US intervention in Guatemalan politics?

The Tweels were invented in Michelin's North American Headquarters, about 5 miles from where I live. This county has as many or more engineers per capita than Silicon Valley.

There were times when US corporations did build factories in Guatemala. Corporations do not seek out high wage locations unless there is some compensating factor. I'd say the future of the automotive industry is brighter here than in Michigan, which is blessed with strong labor unions and dysfunctional corporate management. I have talked to people who were members of those unions. The work rules were so restrictive that engineers could not use a screwdriver.

I don't know much about the labor legal environment down here. But I do think the availability of jobs counts for a lot.
A high paying job that doesn't exist doesn't help you much.

Hey, what can I say? It's a freewheeling conversation and goes where it goes. I can slow down, if you'd like?

Interesting to learn about the per capita smarts in your county. Cambridge South notwithstanding, the Palmetto State doesn't exactly have a reputation for producing brilliant minds open to novelty and critical thought. It's a perennial "winner" in the dumb state competition in terms of HS graduation rates, college and advanced degrees held, number of hours of television watched, etc. Might that have something to do with the fact that it's highly stratified along class lines and has a large and impoverished lower class ruled by a minority of business and political elites. Nah, it couldn't be. Because that would make it sort of like a banana ... sorry.

Considering what the wizards of smart in Columbia gave away to become the latest Michelin plantation, I'm thinking folks aren't as sharp as you make them out to be. And I expect that most of the engineers in this corn pone Silicon Valley are carpetbaggers hailing from anywhere but South Carolina. You're born and bred, right?

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad it's worked out for you and your colleagues but it's hardly the windfall for the average South Carolina resident the politicians in Columbia claim it is. And I'm SHOCKED, shocked I tell you, to hear that people speak ill of unions in a South Carolina industrial plant.

But we're not going to change each other's mind, are we? So why don't we leave it at that before you open up a can of South Carolina whoop ass on me, Preston Brooks style.

[Polish_Silver]

Re: What are we discussing?

Hey, what can I say? It's a freewheeling conversation and goes where it goes. I can slow down, if you'd like?

Interesting to learn about the per capita smarts in your county. Cambridge South notwithstanding, the Palmetto State doesn't exactly have a reputation for producing brilliant minds open to novelty and critical thought. It's a perennial "winner" in the dumb state competition in terms of HS graduation rates, college and advanced degrees held, number of hours of television watched, etc. Might that have something to do with the fact that it's highly stratified along class lines and has a large and impoverished lower class ruled by a minority of business and political elites. Nah, it couldn't be. Because that would make it sort of like a banana ... sorry.

Considering what the wizards of smart in Columbia gave away to become the latest Michelin plantation, I'm thinking folks aren't as sharp as you make them out to be. And I expect that most of the engineers in this corn pone Silicon Valley are carpetbaggers hailing from anywhere but South Carolina. You're born and bred, right?

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad it's worked out for you and your colleagues but it's hardly the windfall for the average South Carolina resident the politicians in Columbia claim it is. And I'm SHOCKED, shocked I tell you, to hear that people speak ill of unions in a South Carolina industrial plant.

But we're not going to change each other's mind, are we? So why don't we leave it at that before you open up a can of South Carolina whoop ass on me, Preston Brooks style.

I am not against unions, only against the irrational and self destructive behavior they sometimes engage in. If you take out Michelin and BMW, the employment and tax base would collapse, and this area might be as poor as the corridor of shame. (We'd still have GE and Fluor, though) How is the county a Michelin plantation? By giving workers more choice, the effect of these corporations is to raise the over all wage level. What did Columbia give away to get the Michelin headquarters? Some tax breaks?

The state has significant income and sales tax.

The standard of living around here is higher than the much of the state--because the regional governments were able to create a business environment attractive to multinational corporations which brought tax revenue and jobs. This area suffered a big dislocation in the 1990's, when the textile production was off shored to China. This area was able to recover, much better than some others, in part due to the wise governance at the city and county levels.

Parts of the state do have real poverty and literacy problems. But I don't see how stronger labor unions or corporation bashing helps that. The worst poverty are rural areas not at all involved in our auto industry.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Rule of Law? Or the Rule of Men.

The Art of Contrary Thinking, by Humphrey B. Neill ~ first printing in 1954

As mentioned earlier, under a managed system of society, into which we are steadily becoming more deeply involved, propaganda becomes an ever-more-powerful tool of the "managers."

Our minds are bombarded continually with ideas and thoughts that are planted with the avowed purpose of influencing us. We have little conception of the amount of "news" that is actually manufactured.

Probably dismissed by the mainstream as a kook during his time?

[Raz]

Re: What are we discussing?

Hey, what can I say? It's a freewheeling conversation and goes where it goes. I can slow down, if you'd like?

Interesting to learn about the per capita smarts in your county. Cambridge South notwithstanding, the Palmetto State doesn't exactly have a reputation for producing brilliant minds open to novelty and critical thought. It's a perennial "winner" in the dumb state competition in terms of HS graduation rates, college and advanced degrees held, number of hours of television watched, etc. Might that have something to do with the fact that it's highly stratified along class lines and has a large and impoverished lower class ruled by a minority of business and political elites. Nah, it couldn't be. Because that would make it sort of like a banana ... sorry.

Considering what the wizards of smart in Columbia gave away to become the latest Michelin plantation, I'm thinking folks aren't as sharp as you make them out to be. And I expect that most of the engineers in this corn pone Silicon Valley are carpetbaggers hailing from anywhere but South Carolina. You're born and bred, right?

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad it's worked out for you and your colleagues but it's hardly the windfall for the average South Carolina resident the politicians in Columbia claim it is. And I'm SHOCKED, shocked I tell you, to hear that people speak ill of unions in a South Carolina industrial plant.

But we're not going to change each other's mind, are we? So why don't we leave it at that before you open up a can of South Carolina whoop ass on me, Preston Brooks style.

-10

Condescending disdain among smart people makes them look foolish, and resorting to insults means one has already lost an argument.

[astonas]

Re: What are we discussing?

Condescending disdain among smart people makes them look foolish, and resorting to insults means one has already lost an argument.

Just wanted to make it known that Raz isn't alone on this. I have to say that after reading the thread, Woodsman, your sarcasm does seem to be compromising, rather than strengthening, this particular line of reasoning. It takes some of the valid points you bring up, and makes it less palatable to accept them as such.

That being said, I've enjoyed the information you've both posted, and have just learned a lot from both of you on this subject. Please don't think I'm trying to encourage the end of the conversation. ;-)

I know that Polish_Silver is a skilled debater, and doesn't really need my defense; I'm mostly bringing it up because there are many quieter readers who might be more convinced with a softer tone.

[Woodsman]

Re: What are we discussing?

Oh please, the place is famously stupid. They revel in it.

Off the top of my head...

* First to fire in the Civil War.
* Last to honor the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
* Flies Confederate battle flag on state grounds
* Bob Jones University
* Woolly Mammoth "sixth day" amendment
* Maurice Bessinger's "Piggy Park" restaurant - free racist tracts with every meal
* Banned "Romeo & Juliet"

And then there's John C. Calhoun, Wade Hampton, Pitchfork Ben Tillman, Cotton Ed Smith, Strom Thurmond, John Jenrette, Lee Atwater, Joe Wilson, Mark Sanford, Jeff Duncan, Jim DeMint, Lindsey Graham, Alvin Greene, Earl Bullard, Nikki Haley, Andre Bauer, Roland Corning etc. etc. I could go until my fingers cramp.

As for condescending disdain for the retrograde elements that dominate South Carolina's culture and politics, I plead guilty; no remorse, regret or apologies. I'm pleased to take every opportunity available to slice and dice them with all the sarcasm, mockery, wit and irony in my possession; ideally until they are beet red with rage. But whatever my many, many faults, I am no Charles Sumner and you won't ever find me cowering under a desk.

I only wish I had said it first:

"South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum."
- James Louis Petigru, Attorney General and State Representative (South Carolina)

[astonas]

Re: What are we discussing?

Oh please, the place is famously stupid. They revel in it.

Off the top of my head...

* First to fire in the Civil War.
* Last to honor the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
* Flies Confederate battle flag on state grounds
* Bob Jones University
* Woolly Mammoth "sixth day" amendment
* Maurice Bessinger's "Piggy Park" restaurant - free racist tracts with every meal
* Banned "Romeo & Juliet"

And then there's John C. Calhoun, Wade Hampton, Pitchfork Ben Tillman, Cotton Ed Smith, Strom Thurmond, John Jenrette, Lee Atwater, Joe Wilson, Mark Sanford, Jeff Duncan, Jim DeMint, Lindsey Graham, Alvin Greene, Earl Bullard, Nikki Haley, Andre Bauer, Roland Corning etc. etc. I could go until my fingers cramp.

As for condescending disdain for the retrograde elements that dominate South Carolina's culture and politics, I plead guilty; no remorse, regret or apologies. I'm pleased to take every opportunity available to slice and dice them with all the sarcasm, mockery, wit and irony in my possession; ideally until they are beet red with rage. But whatever my many, many faults, I am no Charles Sumner and you won't ever find me cowering under a desk.

To be clear, I was neither endorsing nor disagreeing with the opinions on either side of the argument itself (which you are defending above) nor was I complaining about your passion. But the use of phrases like "I can slow down if you like." imply that it is your discussion partner personally, rather than abstract "retrograde elements" of South Carolina, that is specifically included as an object of your disdain. While there may have been occasional cases on iTulip where such disdain has been warranted, I didn't really see Polish_Silver as having done anything to deserve such personal scorn. If you disagree, I'd appreciate a citation.

You are entitled to your opinions, and to your defense of them. And a biting wit can of course be fully warranted by circumstance (though it may at times be counterproductive if one's goal is to be convincing). But no member should be entitled to break the generally civil discourse of the site by personally insulting the intelligence of another iTulip member merely for disagreeing with their position.

This site just works best when everyone is free to be passionate, but still civil. You are normally a great example of how to do this right, and in the past I've admired how you've managed to engage passionately but politely with many iTulipers you've disagreed with. I'm not sure why this particular topic seems to be nudging you, perhaps inadvertently, across the line. But at least in my reading of your words, this conversation no longer seems to be respectful of your discussion partner's intelligence.

[Woodsman]

Re: What are we discussing?

Geez louise, you guys take yourselves way too seriously. It's the Internet for crissakes.

Excuse me now while I go kick my dog and take a piss on my neighbor's lawn.

[shiny!]

Re: What are we discussing?

Geez louise, you guys take yourselves way too seriously. It's the Internet for crissakes.

OK, I'll bite.

On the Internet we can say things to others that we wouldn't say if we were talking face-to-face. Anonymity lets us be as rude as we like. This is the standard for places like Zerohedge where people talk at each other instead of to each other. On the Internet, that person I'm arguing with isn't a human being, it's just an object I can vent my frustration on.

iTulip is different. The standard here is to speak to each other with the same politeness and courtesy we'd use if we were talking in a coffee shop. This place is one of the last bastions of civilized discourse, especially on the Internet.