Student Debt

[Forrest]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

My Daughter will be first year at Tufts in the fall - $ 63,000 a year...

While the Ivies are over rated it does help some having a degree from one but what I think makes the difference these days is a deeper commitment on the advanced degrees like attorney + Tax law - The +4 extra Ed. years put one in a more competitive postilion to service the .01% with the money.

One might even have the privilege of having met a few scions of the .01% in passing as well...which is probably the point. I think it always was, though good professors are a benefit.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

My Daughter will be first year at Tufts in the fall - $ 63,000 a year. I have it covered as well as graduate school so she will graduate with no debt, but all the same it is a big nut to cover.

Just my luck that my daughter is going to college at the peak of it all.

My brother in law paid for 3 Ivies as well as graduate school for the same and I figure he has spent over a million dollars putting his three boys through school.

The benefit is that the oldest is earning over a million dollars a years and you probably have seen him as a talking head if you can bring yourself to watch CNBC.

The second, a Tax attorney with 8 years of higher Ed as well as clerking for a judge for a year started his first job last year @ $@250 K

The third is just beginning Law school this year. so we shall see.

Personally I believe it's a scam but as an older parent I can not chance it with my daughter as I most likely will not be around to help out so she has to be able to do it on her own.

While the Ivies are over rated it does help some having a degree from one but what I think makes the difference these days is a deeper commitment on the advanced degrees like attorney + Tax law - The +4 extra Ed. years put one in a more competitive postilion to service the .01% with the money.

Wow!

Good on you and your brother-in-law.

I graduated form a state uni 20 years ago when it was cheap....and my employer at the time covered my time at an Ivy school evening program...no way was I going to pay for it out of pocket...and that was back THEN.

If there's one suggestion I could make for anyone attending an Ivy or top tier school is that my opinion on the academic difference between a top and mid tier school is often quite cynical. I believe the greatest value is in the networking opportunities that Ivy and top tier schools can offer.

If I was sending my kids to an Ivy or top tier US school I would be teaching them(or having them independently taught) how to effectively network.

[flintlock]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

Most dont end up paying full price, so the list prices can be deceiving. There are so many ways to whittle the "sticker price" down. The bad part is it is very difficult to get a real price so as to be able to comparison shop. Not unlike healthcare, which not surprisingly also has been hit with high inflation.

If you are a good high school student with good grades and scores a lot of schools offer scholarships of $5000 or so a year, right off the top. And you dont need a 34 on the ACT either. Ive seen them where as low as a 24 will qualify. Lots of financial aid available too. Work programs. Lots of athletic scholarships, especially for girls. And you dont have to be a superstar. Still it can end up a lot of debt for a kid right out college, especially if he cant find a job right away. But a lot of these people with the six figure debt are not always the wisest about how they went about aquiring it.

Some thought they could just buy an education and it would all work out. A relative has mentioned she might go back to school for a masters since her Drama degree hasn't exactly brought in the big offers. I think that will just compound her problems. If you are a high income parent with a slacker kid who just slid by in High School your kid may pay at or near full price. The same kids tend to switch majors, drop classes, and other stupid stuff that can turn a reasonable amount of debt into a mountain. There is always some school somewhere that will take your money. That doesnt mean you should go. Some might be better off working a while and maybe even find an employer who will pay. My friend's daughter is going to work for the Auburn fire dept and they will pay her full tuition. She should be able to graduate with little or no debt.

Its been a real learning experience for me, looking at schools for my twins. Ive been surprised at how many schools have average ACT scores shockingly low. Tells me maybe too many people are going to college. Depends on the course of study I suppose.

[jk]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

iirc there are only about 50-60 colleges and universities which are really selective. the rest essentially have open doors if you can pay the freight.

the other thing many people don't know is that the most selective schools are often the cheapest- they have the biggest endowments, need-blind admissions, and often policies that award big discounts without any loans required at all. of course, they are also the most difficult to get into.

[flintlock]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

iirc there are only about 50-60 colleges and universities which are really selective. the rest essentially have open doors if you can pay the freight.

the other thing many people don't know is that the most selective schools are often the cheapest- they have the biggest endowments, need-blind admissions, and often policies that award big discounts without any loans required at all. of course, they are also the most difficult to get into.

Exactly why my daughter is trying to get into one of those need-blind schools! If she can make the cut it will actually be cheaper than going to an in state public university. IF....

[lektrode]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

Exactly why my daughter is trying to get into one of those need-blind schools! If she can make the cut it will actually be cheaper than going to an in state public university. IF....

wishing/hoping for you/your kid the best of luck on this, flint.

and you know The Definition of Luck, eh?

"where preparation meets opportunity"

[tastymannatees]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

Exactly why my daughter is trying to get into one of those need-blind schools! If she can make the cut it will actually be cheaper than going to an in state public university. IF....

Diversity Rules


At the more competitive schools if you are an URM you have a definite advantage along with sports if you are white it can be more challenging these days for example Harvard below.

Harvard -2023 applicants for class of 2018

A recruited Ivy League athlete must have the academic credentials to survive the stringent and highly selective admissions process at each institution. Coaches have little sway in the admissions process, although they do provide a list of potential athletes to admissions officials. Across the league, about 13 percent of each university’s incoming class is composed of athletes chosen from coaches’ lists.

13 percent =262


Highlights of Harvard’s Class of 2017

The admitted students of the Class of 2017 were ethnically diverse – 19.9% Asian-American, 11.5% African-American, 11.5% Hispanic, 2.2% Native American and 0.5% Native Hawaiian.

20% of the admitted students represented 81 different countries and are considered international students, U.S. dual citizens, or U.S. permanent residents.

Harvard's legacy admissions rate hovers around 30%. Its overall rate was 5.8% this year.

athletic=13 percent =262
19.9% Asian-American=402.57
11.5% African-American=232
11.5% Hispanic=232
2.2% Native American= 44.5
20% International=404.6
legacy 5.8 =117.33

Total = 1695.004

2023-1695= 328 slots available for white non athletes

Male50%/Female50% split = 164


If your daughter is white & non athletic she will be competing for 164 openings at Harvard.

Asians are over represented - Hispanic under represented

White population in the US is about 72% according to wikipedia so minorities are over represented by 16% vs the USA white population & although not counted there would be some number from the 81 Countries international enrollment.

probably some overlap on the athletics/ racial numbers this is just a ball park.

Assume in this ball park that 72% of the applications were from USA were whites or 26,000 with half being female that would make 13,000 white women vying for just 164 openings.


In a population of 13,000 you will have a number compelling stories - Family wiped out in a car accident, homeless, cured cancer at age 16 etc. so you are competing also on that front.

an off the cuff guess at any ivy chances are a fraction of a %.

A competitive SAT score - 2200 + and Good GPA will open many doors and for the better schools, an outstanding essay will make a difference and now would be a good time to start.

Applying early admission may provide a slight edge.

[vinoveri]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

My daughter graduted HS this year: 2280 SAT (800 math); 3.9 GPA, 11 AP classes (all 4 or 5s)- ALL state muscician (piano and vocal) - white, non-athlete.

She was admitted to every in-state school she applied to (Florida, FSU, ..)

She also applied to some out of state higher tier schools including Harvard, Duke, Vanderbit, Virginia and was NOT accepted to any. I really didn't expect her to get into Harvard, but the other rejections were surprising. Sure seems a lot more competitive than when I went to school 30 yrs ago.

[tastymannatees]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

My daughter graduted HS this year: 2280 SAT (800 math); 3.9 GPA, 11 AP classes (all 4 or 5s)- ALL state muscician (piano and vocal) - white, non-athlete.

She was admitted to every in-state school she applied to (Florida, FSU, ..)

She also applied to some out of state higher tier schools including Harvard, Duke, Vanderbit, Virginia and was NOT accepted to any. I really didn't expect her to get into Harvard, but the other rejections were surprising. Sure seems a lot more competitive than when I went to school 30 yrs ago.

I'll bet she got money from the in state schools

My daughter 2280 also- URM's takes a big chunk of the available slots these days, in my daughters graduating class one mixed Mexican American (1/2 caucasion) with SAT a couple hundred points less got into Harvard as well as one Asian/Indian (adopted w/ Caucasian parents)into Yale with 2000 SAT. Both live in million dollar houses. Both are pretty much culturally white.

The other side of the coin in the selection process is we put our daughter in private school as our local school rates near dead last in the state being 158 out of 164 comparable to the worst inner city schools. Harvard then took a Caucasian with a 2120 SAT from same school we elected to take our daughter out of, I believe just because the school was so bad that if somebody was able to make a halfway decent showing under such conditions they deserved to get in. Perhaps reasonably so, it's pretty much a hit or miss process.

My Nephew's experience with diversity at the Ivy's was very cliquey as most hung out with their particular ethnic group and the much vaunted networking advantage does not really exist anymore as the social circles have been reduced to about what they had in high school.

[Ghent12]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

Diversity Rules


At the more competitive schools if you are an URM you have a definite advantage along with sports if you are white it can be more challenging these days for example Harvard below.

Harvard -2023 applicants for class of 2018

A recruited Ivy League athlete must have the academic credentials to survive the stringent and highly selective admissions process at each institution. Coaches have little sway in the admissions process, although they do provide a list of potential athletes to admissions officials. Across the league, about 13 percent of each university’s incoming class is composed of athletes chosen from coaches’ lists.

13 percent =262


Highlights of Harvard’s Class of 2017

The admitted students of the Class of 2017 were ethnically diverse – 19.9% Asian-American, 11.5% African-American, 11.5% Hispanic, 2.2% Native American and 0.5% Native Hawaiian.

20% of the admitted students represented 81 different countries and are considered international students, U.S. dual citizens, or U.S. permanent residents.

Harvard's legacy admissions rate hovers around 30%. Its overall rate was 5.8% this year.

athletic=13 percent =262
19.9% Asian-American=402.57
11.5% African-American=232
11.5% Hispanic=232
2.2% Native American= 44.5
20% International=404.6
legacy 5.8 =117.33

Total = 1695.004

2023-1695= 328 slots available for white non athletes

Male50%/Female50% split = 164


If your daughter is white & non athletic she will be competing for 164 openings at Harvard.

Asians are over represented - Hispanic under represented

White population in the US is about 72% according to wikipedia so minorities are over represented by 16% vs the USA white population & although not counted there would be some number from the 81 Countries international enrollment.

probably some overlap on the athletics/ racial numbers this is just a ball park.

Assume in this ball park that 72% of the applications were from USA were whites or 26,000 with half being female that would make 13,000 white women vying for just 164 openings.


In a population of 13,000 you will have a number compelling stories - Family wiped out in a car accident, homeless, cured cancer at age 16 etc. so you are competing also on that front.

an off the cuff guess at any ivy chances are a fraction of a %.

A competitive SAT score - 2200 + and Good GPA will open many doors and for the better schools, an outstanding essay will make a difference and now would be a good time to start.

Applying early admission may provide a slight edge.

Hispanics may be underrepresented, but nothing like WASPs as you point out. Thank God and the Census Bureau that the only criteria for being legally Hispanic is you check the box on the census form. My children can actually claim to be Hispanic because my wife is Sorta Rican, even though they could easily be assumed to hail from Norway.

[BK]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

A couple of thoughts are students still competing with the echo bubble (80 million children) born of baby boomers.

Every one interested in this topic should read College (Un) Bound or see the authors blog (he works for the Chronicle of Higher Ed) http://www.jeffselingo.com/blog/

I think in the book, Jeff Selingo ,even makes the point that the elites now make connections for their children in elite high schools (as the chances of the Elite guaranteeing a spot at the elite prep schools is assured more than it can be at the Ivy level).

Colleges today are a figment created through massive debt levels for the institutions and most of the students who attend. There are still too many who think that going $100,0000s in debt for college will guarantee a secure future for their child.

I'm not discounting the value of a great education or the tremendous value getting into an elite school can have on the trajectory of your life, but those families and students who are taking on debt levels that they cannot handle. People are wired to be optimistic and this feeds the rational that it makes sense to borrow as much as possible to make Junior's dream school possible.

[BK]

Re: Student Debt - Jeff Sellingo talk - Future Financial drivers of College

Interesting video sums up the financial drivers for college:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEPoIYs5aUE

[tastymannatees]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

A couple of thoughts are students still competing with the echo bubble (80 million children) born of baby boomers.

Every one interested in this topic should read College (Un) Bound or see the authors blog (he works for the Chronicle of Higher Ed) http://www.jeffselingo.com/blog/

I think in the book, Jeff Selingo ,even makes the point that the elites now make connections for their children in elite high schools (as the chances of the Elite guaranteeing a spot at the elite prep schools is assured more than it can be at the Ivy level).

Colleges today are a figment created through massive debt levels for the institutions and most of the students who attend. There are still too many who think that going $100,0000s in debt for college will guarantee a secure future for their child.

I'm not discounting the value of a great education or the tremendous value getting into an elite school can have on the trajectory of your life, but those families and students who are taking on debt levels that they cannot handle. People are wired to be optimistic and this feeds the rational that it makes sense to borrow as much as possible to make Junior's dream school possible.

Intellectually I understand if you go 20 years down the road on the bell curve it's ability that's the final determinant and those with equal ability despite the school tend to have the same income and lifestyle. These days I believe most of the middle class is struggling and so looking to their kids they sense that being middle class in the future will be less and the struggle will be harder for them and so if they have the wherewithal or means they reach as high as they can.

With my daughter who has no siblings and will be totally on her own after I am gone what option do I have as a parent other than to do my utmost for her security? There is no option so I pay the vig.

In my office building I am the sole tenant left on the second floor, The steel engineering company is gone as are the accountants, disc jockey, attorney, internet sales company and IT support group. Downstairs main street retail shops are on their knees with many closed doors in the last 5 years, the only one that seems to be doing well is the barber that cuts my hair.

I believe it is more desperation than optimism driving people these days.

In any event unlike the 50.s 60's when my contemporaries got their Ivy degrees they had room and could take most of the brightest of the bright and big % of the elite. These days for the sake of diversity they accept a fraction of what they used to. This is a good thing I believe as it will push them(students) down market and dilute the Ivy aura, there are many great schools out there and companies will follow the talent as needed.

http://www.yale.edu/yalehistoricalre...013/Zhuang.pdf

[BK]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

I agree with you completely and I would/will do the same. I should have been so callous in my description of the choices parents face as parents have little choice but to go for broke. My child is an 'only child' as well and every day I try to do some that helps increase is understanding of how this world works. Someday I will have little choice but to make sure my child gets the best education that we can buy.

[shiny!]

Re: Student Debt - Debt engulfs institutions of higher learning

I agree with you completely and I would/will do the same. I should have been so callous in my description of the choices parents face as parents have little choice but to go for broke. My child is an 'only child' as well and every day I try to do some that helps increase is understanding of how this world works. Someday I will have little choice but to make sure my child gets the best education that we can buy.

Do keep in mind though that the "best education you can buy" needn't be the most expensive education. I haven't read every post in this thread so my apologies if this has been brought up before...

Skilled blue collar jobs can pay quite well. By going to community college and/or a good public vocational school, a young person can gain a viable skill for a lot less money than going the high academia route, where they'll need a least a Master's degree to even get an interview.

Working as a plumber or mechanic might not be their dream job, but there are advantages. While their peers are graduating college with massive debts only to find careers in the fast food industry, twenty-somethings with good blue collar skills can earn decent money without the burden of so much debt.

As an example, young HVAC repairpeople with associates degrees in refrigeration can earn $70,000 a year in Phoenix. Any twenty-something earning $70,000 a year who has the discipline to live frugally and save is capable of paying for more college themselves if they ever want a different career.

If you can instill in your children good social skills, a strong work ethic, a love for lifelong learning and the ability to be a self-starter, you can rest easy knowing that they will always be able to take care of themselves.