Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

[vt]

Venezuela has more oil than any other country and is falling apart. It has also taken press and other freedoms away from the people.

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/16/290516...lk-and-diapers

Some of the comments are priceless.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101496191

One should review the collapse of the Soviet Union:

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/sovietcollapse.htm

And of course Eastern Europe was a basket case economically:

https://history.state.gov/milestones...l-of-communism

I remember asking Bill McGowan, the monopoly fighting leader of MCI communications, what he thought of the reunification of Germany.

He said: "It's the worst leveraged buyout in history"

Everywhere socialism has taken hold it has failed. Europe has free markets but great safety nets, though their is a limit to what can be spent without growth incentives.

Yes, there are problems with Capitalism, but not with free and fair markets devoid of cronyism.
Even communist Russia and China has oligarchs. Friends and family got control of parts of the production process with the party leaders.

The difference between economic success between Capitalist and Socialist societies is that the latter produces much less production to raise living standards. Capitalist is a bit more messy; it's not controlled by central planners. But it does result in higher living standards.

Get rid of FIRE, cronyism be it capitalist or socialist, central planning except where necessary like national security.

In a truly free and fair market system led by TECI, we could see much higher living standards. This is the way you get rid of income inequality. Unfortunately academia does not have the intelligence to understand all this. And the current leadership is part of the problem.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

Get rid of...central planning except where necessary...

^^^ Wishful thinking and very similar to the refrain of "if only the right people were in charge." Borrowing (deficits) and income and estate taxes were created in the U.S. to pay for 'national defense'. The larger the territory (and more people) under the charge of ANY government, the higher the price of national defense. And modern defense with the computers, the planes, the aircraft carriers, the submarines and the bombs is so much more expensive than it was in the age of clubs and swords. Small is Beautiful. Get rid of any system that is so large that that mistakes/errors/crimes can risk the entire system. In other words, for the purposes of this discussion, get rid of nation-states.

[vt]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

Of course you need the Federal government to stand ready when FEMA is needed, but state governments do a good job with all but major disasters. Of course they did a poor job with Katrina; it took the military to come in to straighten it out.

But the department of education has done nothing to improve educational standards, the war on poverty has left the poor worse off, EPA is completely off into control, and HHS with the AFC is a calamity.

Where you need central input, it needs to be competent, not make things worse.

Some states work, some don't; but the ones that don't often have cumbersome bureaucracies.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

In my view, another false dichotomy.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

In my view, another false dichotomy.

For sure.

The air quality index for Paris hit 180 last week.

What's the solution? 100% tax on cars? Odd-even driving? 10 euros to enter the city? Free public transportation?

[vinoveri]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

ah, this thread had brought something to the surface for me and that is that socialism does not necessarily require centralized control, but the usual forms we see are in fact managed that way. To me the attractive principles of fairness and equity and use and exploitation of natural resources for the common good and common wealth - not simply to who is the most ambitious- are agreeable to me albeit "socialistic". Centralized control however is anathema because it centralizes power rather than distributing it (and doling out checks and favors to the masses or special classes is not distribution of power) and vests power in some dogmatic top down system - for instance in the US, we have secular "liberalism" that gives us the nanny state, which rather than empowering restricts freedom of the common man and communities.

[Woodsman]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

So much confusion in this thread.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

For sure.

The air quality index for Paris hit 180 last week.

What's the solution? 100% tax on cars? Odd-even driving? 10 euros to enter the city? Free public transportation?

Dare I say it?

Replace all Citroens and Peugeots with Teslas!

[vt]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

Correct Vinoveri. Socialism purports to support

"the attractive principles of fairness and equity and use and exploitation of natural resources for the common good and common wealth"

However the power elite in a socialist system is as crooked as the crony capitalist elite. At least the capitalist elite produces a lot more wealth. The socialists are ultimately inept and leave the middle and lower classes even worse off. Plus the socialists want control above all which means closing off freedoms.

Capitalist crooks only want to make the system work in their favor so they pay off the politicians. The Republicans have tended favor big business and Wall Street, while democrats have favored real estate development and labor unions. Now Democrats also use Wall Street. All the politicians are on the take.

Take a looked at the big Democrats: Pelosi, Reid, Feinstein. all of them have gotten rich off insider real estate deals. A few Republicans have also benefited by this method, but Democrats more so.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...deal/?page=all

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...in-o/?page=all

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...betsy-woodruff



Rent seekers are found everywhere in the world:

http://www.economist.com/news/intern...prosper-planet

The left thinks they are helping the poor; they are just feeding the leftist elite.


The only way to improve the lot of the poor and middle class is to:

Elect independent legislatures to replace all representatives currently in office- 60% of the American public want to replace the entire Congress.

All lobbying is illegal and forbidden

A limited tax payer supported budget is available for elections. No other money allowed for politicians. This will focus on the real issues, not character attacks and lies.

Corruption of any kind; be it government, business, union; is punished by jail sentences and fines equal to what was earned via the illegal act.

All government actions are public and transparent.



Communists and Fascists not only have many rent seekers. they also kill millions and destroy freedom.

[Woodsman]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

...Communists and Fascists not only have many rent seekers. they also kill millions and destroy freedom.

You gentlemen remind me of the old Imperial Japanese holdouts, still fighting decades after the war ended. Funny stuff.

[vinoveri]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

Yes, vt, we appear to agree that centralized power leads to corruption oppression and tyranny, & I agree in principle with a lot of your recommendations. can we also agree that the common good demands equity in the common wealth - individuals and corporations can grow super rich which is fine. - but never should be allowed to profit disproportionately by extracting common well resources. moreover, profits generated from common property and capital of the country must be distributed for free.

[vt]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

We already have this to some extent with the progressive tax system, though we could also improve it towards you're goal by lower tax rates and getting rid of most deductions.

Federal and state governments are bloated and inefficient; we need to downsize them and free up tax capital for public-private projects like EJ suggests to rebuild infrastructure.

As far a taking more from the rich, we are already seeing a growing number of the most elite pledging all or a huge percentage of wealth to foundations that really help rhe poor more than governments do.

You say "profits generated from common property and capital of the country must be distributed for free", which sound noble. However the poor and middle class are served far better by profits being reinvested to produce more jobs, technologies, and innovations.

[GRG55]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

For sure.

The air quality index for Paris hit 180 last week.

What's the solution? 100% tax on cars? Odd-even driving? 10 euros to enter the city? Free public transportation?

Fewer French cars???

Edit Added: I see I should have read the whole thread first...Milton got there first!!

[BadJuju]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

As far a taking more from the rich, we are already seeing a growing number of the most elite pledging all or a huge percentage of wealth to foundations that really help rhe poor more than governments do.

A pledge to give wealth is not giving wealth. It is merely a promise to do so. Furthermore, really how many are actually giving substantial sums of their wealth away? And how many of these so-called philanthropists acquired their vast fortunes from equally vast estates or from being the very people this site rallies against?

[vinoveri]

Re: Another Socialist Paridise Bites The Dust

You say "profits generated from common property and capital of the country must be distributed for free", which sound noble. However the poor and middle class are served far better by profits being reinvested to produce more jobs, technologies, and innovations.

well there's the rub it in, who decides where profits shouldbe invested and how? centralized control again? Alaska Pipeline -perhaps the redistribution message was not ideal but the concept is sound everyone benefits from common resources. In the end though goodness and human solidairyt rather and gross profit as the highest but not sole ideal
what do you say to asking the poor and middle class what they would like to be done with the Commonwealth?