Public Pension Millionaires

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

From Charles Hugh Smith. Best explanation I've read of what's actually happening, stripped of standard R v D politics.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogsept10...fare09-10.html

Smith doesn't mention corporate taxes...

(from The Center for Investigative Reporting)

For many multinational corporations based in the United States, Clausing said, the top corporate income tax rate of 35 percent is a myth.

“I think our system’s stated intention and its actual practice have diverged to a point where it’s bordering on ridiculous,” she said. “If you look at the firms in question, they aren’t paying anywhere near that rate.”

In addition to disclosing how much money they hold overseas, companies are required to report to the SEC the amount of federal taxes they would owe if their earnings were transferred to the U.S., with credit for any foreign taxes already paid. Many companies, however, avoid disclosure by citing an exception that estimating their tax burden is impractical.

Of the 50 largest Bay Area tech companies, 17 estimated the U.S. taxes they owed on overseas earnings. If these companies were taxed on that money today, they would owe the U.S. Treasury $25.9 billion, according to their own estimates.

Two-thirds of the companies, however, did not provide an estimate of their potential tax liabilities. Similarly, an October study by the research and advocacy group Citizens for Tax Justice found that 285 companies on the Fortune 500 list reported having overseas earnings, but fewer than 50 provided an estimate of their U.S. tax liability.

[charliebrown]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Once again you give me intellectual food to each DC. (Maybe too much for my petite stomach). I want the people to get there pensions, but the social contract has been broken. Not too long ago, I paid 12K for a college education, < 20% total income as taxes, I had a stable job, I could pay to see my doctor out of pocket. But know that world is gone. I pay 20K a year for college, 30% of my income for taxes, Without insurance one faces bankruptcy for a mild hospital treatment. 20 years ago I was thinking If things get tough I could get a part time job at blockbuster and watch all kinds of movies and recommend
the to others and help customers. Ooops that doesn't work anymore ... If a plebe like me could effect things with my vote and letters I would argue to
skinny down this over bloated gvt, and redirect it to the needy, but My voice means nothing. The gvt responds to the ruling class and not to the citizens.
My voice, my vote, means nothing. There is a reason people pay 50K for a chicken dinner. So in this dog-eat-dog world they have created I fight for my scraps.

We've got a whole new class of opiates
To blunt the stench of discontent
In these corporation nation-states
Where the loudest live to trample on the least
They say it's just the predatory nature of the beast

But, the barons in the balcony are laughing
And pointing to the pit
They say, “Aw look, they've grown accustomed to the smell
Now, people love that sh*t
And we're workin' it.”
Workin' it

Don Henley, Working It.


I'm just tired DC. Everyone wants a piece of me. I am a giving person. I try to be nice to everyone. Now people take without asking. I mentally tired of fighting. I long for good neighbors, hard physical work, and peace of mind. I have read Strauss and Howe's fourth turning. I believe the seeds are being
sown for the forth turning. Any year now it will occur. I hope the younger generation who grab the reins of power have mercy on me and my children.

Time to end this rant. Thanks for listening. I offer no magic pill. Blood and sweat must be spilt to right this ship.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Once again you give me intellectual food to each DC. (Maybe too much for my petite stomach). I want the people to get there pensions, but the social contract has been broken. Not too long ago, I paid 12K for a college education, < 20% total income as taxes, I had a stable job, I could pay to see my doctor out of pocket. But know that world is gone. I pay 20K a year for college, 30% of my income for taxes, Without insurance one faces bankruptcy for a mild hospital treatment. 20 years ago I was thinking If things get tough I could get a part time job at blockbuster and watch all kinds of movies and recommend
the to others and help customers. Ooops that doesn't work anymore ... If a plebe like me could effect things with my vote and letters I would argue to
skinny down this over bloated gvt, and redirect it to the needy, but My voice means nothing. The gvt responds to the ruling class and not to the citizens.
My voice, my vote, means nothing. There is a reason people pay 50K for a chicken dinner. So in this dog-eat-dog world they have created I fight for my scraps.


Don Henley, Working It.


I'm just tired DC. Everyone wants a piece of me. I am a giving person. I try to be nice to everyone. Now people take without asking. I mentally tired of fighting. I long for good neighbors, hard physical work, and peace of mind. I have read Strauss and Howe's fourth turning. I believe the seeds are being
sown for the forth turning. Any year now it will occur. I hope the younger generation who grab the reins of power have mercy on me and my children.

Time to end this rant. Thanks for listening. I offer no magic pill. Blood and sweat must be spilt to right this ship.

Aye. Tired. I know the feeling. I'm sure those with years my senior know it better. Politics - governance - economics - it's like doing the dishes. A never-ending process. And as soon as you clear the crap away, there's more waiting for you. Easy to get discouraged by that. Best I can figure is to get everyone to sweat a little more now. We're not just bowling alone; we're trying to get by on our own too. Every bit of respite I've ever had came from wonderful and caring loved-ones, friends and neighbors. I can't even imagine putting a price on it. In the end diverging interests, jobs, lifestyles, responsibilities and incomes tear us apart. If there's anything to the fourth turning and there's one upside to the boomerang phenomenon it might be that more than half of the under 30 set lives within 9 miles of where they grew up, and many with their families. There's solace in community. The big problems we face now won't be solved from the top-down or from some silver bullet - just like diets don't work, this stuff won't cut the mustard either. Meeting in person, talking together, making our friends, neighbors, cities and towns a regular part of our lives, and figuring out how to lift each other up is probably the only way to do it. The headwinds are strong in the other direction. But still...Better to sweat now than bleed later.

[Raz]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Yes, and depending on the specific cultural attitude, this can be a good thing or a bad thing. "Don't tear down a fence unless you know why it was put up in the first place" someone once opined

Why have the cultural attitudes shifted so rapidly I wonder - IMO some people have been bullied, but most are relatively indifferent (b/c they are tolerant to begin with) and are go-with-flow gentle people who have no dog in the fight but had heard the bull-horn on these topics from every corner of society - higher education, media, cinema, and now gov for the past 15 years and acquiesce and are more comfortable going along with the current wave - in short most people are not contentious and will go along with the prevailing opinion eventually just to keep their lives uncomplicated. They have indeed been successfully "re-educated".
A small fraction of society has been relatively "liberated" over the past 20 years - good for them. In the meantime the middle and working classes have been decimated, the rule of law shredded and our government has become an out of control turn-key police state, where people are more dependent than ever on the government. Surveys of what college students' consider the most important issues reveal: Gay rights, abortion, climate change to top the list. Notwithstanding one pro/con feelings for the importance of these, I wonder if these are more of a distraction to the larger issue of economic justice.



Certainly a laudable goal and no doubt worth pursuing and especially so if one adopts a secular humanist world view wherein we are all stuck on this rock in a virtually infinte cold universe, alone, and we need to get along and not kill each other. The problem as I mentioned earlier is there is no "Opt Out" option according to current agenda (e.g., boot on neck if you don't go along), and the hypocrisy (or at best blatant inconsistency) of the current efforts to promote "tolerance" are glaringly obvious when it comes to those viewpoints which are at odds with current vogue, e.g., various religious world views. IMO "tolerance" in the current lingo means "support" or "embrace" - it does not mean "live and let live". The best we can hope for imo under such a program is to tolerate one another but not trust each other as society balkanizes and we live in our little worlds under the iron hand of state positive law.

From the same article wiki article:

Critics of multiculturalism often debate whether the multicultural ideal of benignly co-existing cultures that interrelate and influence one another, and yet remain distinct, is sustainable, paradoxical, or even desirable.^{[137][138][139]} It is argued that Nation states, who would previously have been synonymous with a distinctive cultural identity of their own, lose out to enforced multiculturalism and that this ultimately erodes the host nations' distinct culture.^[140]
Harvard professor of political science Robert D. Putnam conducted a nearly decade long study how multiculturalism affects social trust.^[141] He surveyed 26,200 people in 40 American communities, finding that when the data were adjusted for class, income and other factors, the more racially diverse a community is, the greater the loss of trust. People in diverse communities "don’t trust the local mayor, they don’t trust the local paper, they don’t trust other people and they don’t trust institutions," writes Putnam.^[142] In the presence of such ethnic diversity, Putnam maintains that

[W]e hunker down. We act like turtles. The effect of diversity is worse than had been imagined. And it’s not just that we don’t trust people who are not like us. In diverse communities, we don’t trust people who do look like us.^[141]

Ethologist Frank Salter writes:

Relatively homogeneous societies invest more in public goods, indicating a higher level of public altruism. For example, the degree of ethnic homogeneity correlates with the government's share of gross domestic product as well as the average wealth of citizens. Case studies of the United States, Africa and South-East Asia find that multi-ethnic societies are less charitable and less able to cooperate to develop public infrastructure. Moscow beggars receive more gifts from fellow ethnics than from other ethnies [sic]. A recent multi-city study of municipal spending on public goods in the United States found that ethnically or racially diverse cities spend a smaller portion of their budgets and less per capita on public services than do the more homogeneous cities.^[143]

Dick Lamm, former three-term Democratic governor of the US state of Colorado, wrote in his essay "I have a plan to destroy America":

"Diverse peoples worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent."^[144]

In New Zealand (Aotearoa), which is officially bi-cultural, multiculturalism has been seen as a threat to the Maori, and possibly an attempt by the New Zealand Government to undermine Maori demands for self determination.^[145]

+1.

[Raz]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

"Obama is at best a Reagan Republican"

?

[jk]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

i recently described obama to someone as a rockefeller republican, but otoh we know that obamacare is to the RIGHT of the plan proposed by richard nixon.

[flintlock]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

lektrode has some points here. I consider myself middle class. Since the late 90's my nominal wages have increased
2%. (That's not per year). In the mean time my state and local taxes have increased mightily. My home state of Illinois is constantly floating ideas to tax
new classes of items soda, red light cameras, services, usage tax. Fortunately I live frugally and have been able to absorb these taxes. However I am saving
less so we will see what happens when my kids have to go to college, and how much retirement I have saved.

Others who are not as fortunate as I, are going to be taxed out of their houses, their cars etc.

So yes public workers do not deserve to have their pensions cut, but the tax base just cannot support it anymore.
The politicians and wall street have over promised. the pension promises cannot be kept. I actually think a 401k would be the best
for the public employee's. That way the politician's cannot promise the moon. What are pension plans anyway but a wrapper around
an asset bundle just like a 401k. I do agree that 401ks have been abused by employers filling them with over fee'd options.
But how are the fee's in managing a pension fund? I honestly don't know. In a way this is one of the reasons the pension funds are in such trouble. Just like the private sector 401k, the portfolios have languished for over a decade. Return on the S&P is something like 3% and bonds are not doing well either with low coupon rates. Any big blow up in the stock or bond market is going to be the death knell for these funds.

A few years ago, my wife's pension fund had a banner year when the market was up just a bit, and I wondered how. I went to the web site and saw all kinds
of opaque hedge fund / derivative brokerage products etc. I didn't see a lot of AT&T, MCD, Exon, 20YT bond etc. I think they are reaching to catch up to
the baby book teachers retiring and are reaching. I am prepared for the day when we receive 50c on the dollar for my wife's pension. It unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

Hey if anyone know how to fix this I'm all ears. Like I said I am sorry about this. I do not have pension envy or class envy.
I'm willing to forgo the summer festival, road repairs, etc if the money were to be steered to the pension fund, but I fear it
would be a spit in the bucket.

Nice post

[flintlock]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

bk, you and i have both been members here since '06, and i clearly recollect you denouncing teachers and their benefits back then, and i think with regularity every year since. you also always mention that your parents are/were teachers. how are they doing?

Now be fair. Bringing up facts that may not be flattering to a cause is not the same as denouncing. That's why I brought up my wife being a teacher. If anything those who have benefited directly from generous teacher benefits normally would be seen as biased in favor of teachers. The fact bk openly discusses the way the system works is why I tune into this forum from time to time. To hear real information not processed through the usual political biases.

I will second his opinion on the parents influence on teaching.

The real issue here is that teachers( and other govt workers) were historically paid relatively low wages so no one gave it too much thought. That has changed to a degree in many areas( not all!), and people are right to at least pay some attention because the government realm is one where there is little to no "market forces" to keep things in check, unlike the private sector. But I am in agreement here that generally speaking, this is a non-issue for most locales. Most teachers don't get the kind of pensions mentioned in the article, and we should be looking at how to raise wages for all workers, not reduce teacher pay.

[charliebrown]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Thanks DC, this is the silver cloud I hope full a reuniting of the extended family. It sucks have my 4 siblings spread across 4 different states.

[flintlock]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Don't forget that teachers have longer vacations, and don't work summers. Maybe they work 185 days a year vs. 240 for the average American. Don't forget the very generous benefits vs. the average American. Teachers can retire earlier with full benefits, and have a greater job security.

All of the above except days worked applies to other public employee vs. private employees.

Shhhh! You are blowing the whole, "poor little teachers" theme developed by the teacher's union to garner public support.

Problem with most information today, it's all had the "spin" put on it by the respective political factions.

Luckily, teacher pay is public knowledge, so I recently went on the county website to find out exactly what they make instead of listening to commercials. This is not some big city system, but rather on the extreme fringes of the suburbs. Housing cost is low here, as is the cost of living in general vs most of the US. Starting pay was in the $43,000 range if I recall. Bachelor's degree/ teaching certificate is all that's required. County pays 75% of medical, plus low deductible and co-pays. Pretty much best medical in the State. Vision and Dental of course. Very generous retirement plan, but not the kind that pays like some mentioned in this thread. Teachers work about 25% less days than typical worker. Plus paid personal/sick days. Virtually no weekends( depends). Plenty of opportunities to make extra bucks by being a coach, or in my wife's case, working the after school program. Can probably retire with full benefits earlier than most in private sector. No fear of being "transferred" to another state or demoted. Reasonably good job security. I could go on and on. Fact is my wife does not feel under-compensated except on the days one of her kids decides to spread poop all over the bathroom( works with Special Ed kids). It allows people with kids to have a parent working roughly the same hours as the kids, so it vastly simplifies things like child care and other scheduling conflicts. In fact, our youngest daughter stayed in the after school program for almost free vs paying some daycare big bucks to stay there for a few hours a day like many working parents have to do. All in all, its a good gig, and we know it.

Now you can throw all that out in poor rural areas. But then that has a lot more to do with local economies and how public schools are funded.

[flintlock]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

I reckon when it comes to unsustainable pensions, I would hazard a guess that there's a fair few folks collecting them that would personally identify with the right side of the political spectrum.

For example, a couple million veterans of the US military….who are amongst the first to make financial sacrifices due to the recent focus on military pension reform with the reduction in the military budget.

I was going to bring this up, but thought better of it.

[BK]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Flintlock,
Thank you for chiming in here with your families experience. If I were doing it all over again my wife and I would have become teachers and we would have a lot less economic drama in our lives. My goal with any of my comments was not to demonize people who are teachers. The big wage increase correspond well to when people began to worship the increasing value of homes and real estate. Of course, none of us appreciated how our entire world was redesigning itself for a world of 30 years of falling interest rates.

The municipal financial crisis is overwhelmingly a result of salaries, wages , and defined pension benefits. The bulk of municipal employees are teachers. The bulk of the pensions that put Detroit underwater are teacher pensions and I'm sure there are some crazy high level administrator salaries in the bunch.

regards

[jpatter666]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Flintlock,
I'm sure there are some crazy high level administrator salaries in the bunch.

Bingo.

I've been hearing this as an underlying cause for some time -- not only in public schools, but in the higher education system as well. The mass of legal red tape doesn't help either as it feeds the need for more administrators and "support staff" to oversee the mess.

[santafe2]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

The real issue here is that teachers( and other govt workers) were historically paid relatively low wages so no one gave it too much thought. That has changed to a degree in many areas( not all!), and people are right to at least pay some attention because the government realm is one where there is little to no "market forces" to keep things in check, unlike the private sector. But I am in agreement here that generally speaking, this is a non-issue for most locales. Most teachers don't get the kind of pensions mentioned in the article, and we should be looking at how to raise wages for all workers, not reduce teacher pay.

We should be careful to separate "teacher's pay" from teacher's pensions. Our politicians prefer low pay and bigger pensions because it has less impact on current state budgets and pushes the cost of education into the future. As teachers and other government workers retire and collect the pensions promised, they come into the crosshairs and not the politicians, unions, etc., who design and support this pay structure.

[lektrode]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

We should be careful to separate "teacher's pay" from teacher's pensions. Our politicians prefer low pay and bigger pensions because it has less impact on current state budgets and pushes the cost of education into the future. As teachers and other government workers retire and collect the pensions promised, they come into the crosshairs and not the politicians, unions, etc., who design and support this pay structure.

BINGO!!!!!
the deal with the devil the political class was done decades ago and its now coming due