Public Pension Millionaires

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

That's how I feel, Woodsman. Any meaningful recourse has been exhausted by this point. It is just going to be one long slide into oblivion for humanity. The gulf in power between the common people and the elite is too great a divide to overcome. And they can so easily turn the common people against each other now.

Hold on now. I say there is hope, only not for us.

Humanity has been around longer than any one you or I have ever or will ever meet and it will remain so long as this planet supports life. And the inconveniences and irritations we experience today would make our ancestors laugh at our faces and deny our kinship. I say, suck it up and make it happen for yourself in the best way you can, but you know that.

The arc of history is long and it bends towards justice. When the lies are no longer accepted, then perhaps Americans will once again have the courage to put their necks on the line for generations yet unborn.

I watched John Adams again last night and I have to believe - even if it is only a fairy tale - that men like that still exist and will once again recognize each other and stand together.

[vt]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Everyone here agrees to the excesses of the Banksters and Wall Street crowd. We need to change this pronto.

I only argue not to punish hard earned success. And the small to medium sized businesses are producing most of the jobs so the American worker can get back to high paid middle class work.



We should go after only those big businesses that abuse the process with outlandish pay packages while laying off thousands

But don't punish the engine of growth that can get us out of this mess:

http://www.entrepreneur.com/blog/220616#

It's a waste of time to yell "Koch brothers" and "right wing" at a time when we have the slowest recovery in history after some of the highest public spending. Loaded slogans are no match for reasonable facts from objective sources; such invective is a sign of a biased view.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Hmm. Sorry l asked.

Looks like I caught you on a bad day. I'll try back another time.

Naw, it's an awesome day. Spring is my favorite time of the year and I'm looking forward to getting the beach condo back in use, although it is probably too cold to swim.

Don't assume that my gloomy prognostications are a manifestation of my mood, Andre. Anyway, I'm sure we'll miracle our way out of it.

[BadJuju]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Perhaps, but I truly doubt it. Unless there is a very remarkable breakthrough in technology within the next few decades, I would wager against any chance of that occurring at all. The only reason mankind has reached the level of egalitarianism it has now is because of abundant energy. Without something to ensure greater supplies of energy, then I think it will crumble. People will squabble over smaller and smaller pieces of the pie.

Of course our ancestors would mock us; however, our ancestors were also extremely ignorant and lived with different ideals that made life much more livable in spite of its adversity. In a world as cynical and nihilistic as ours, I'd argue there isn't the same motive. Maybe your idea of people rallying together for a better future for their descendants could happen, but I just doubt it given the thrust of history and the burgeoning threat of energy scarcity and its impact upon equality and power. I would argue Nietzsche was correct.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Everyone here agrees to the excesses of the Banksters and Wall Street crowd. We need to change this pronto.

Yup. Still waiting.

It's a waste of time to yell "Koch brothers" and "right wing" ... Loaded slogans are no match for reasonable facts from objective sources; such invective is a sign of a biased view.

Why do you consider it invective and loaded slogans? These are descriptive terms in current use and describe precisely who and what the Kock's are. And the reality of their influence is undeniable, as is the damage they have wrought. Except of course for the Koch's themselves and their confederates. They never met a right winger.

I'm biased towards reality. I admit it. So thanks, but I'll continue to use words to describe the world as it is.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Perhaps, but I truly doubt it. Unless there is a very remarkable breakthrough in technology within the next few decades, I would wager against any chance of that occurring at all. The only reason mankind has reached the level of egalitarianism it has now is because of abundant energy. Without something to ensure greater supplies of energy, then I think it will crumble. People will squabble over smaller and smaller pieces of the pie.

Of course our ancestors would mock us; however, our ancestors were also extremely ignorant and lived with different ideals that made life much more livable in spite of its adversity. In a world as cynical and nihilistic as ours, I'd argue there isn't the same motive. Maybe your idea of people rallying together for a better future for their descendants could happen, but I just doubt it given the thrust of history and the burgeoning threat of energy scarcity and its impact upon equality and power. I would argue Nietzsche was correct.

I would argue Jesus, Gandhi and Martin King were correct, if a little early. I think together we can take Freidrich without a breaking a sweat.

[TBBNF]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Your teacher friend in New England must be in a rotten school district.
Yes - they start at $45 K - but, can easily get to $90,000 - and over $100K with extra duties, and then the defined pension benefit.
Here is Lexington Ma salaries https://www.google.com/search?q=pay+...-a&channel=sb#
Here is a listing of the AVERAGE salaries for Massachusetts - check out Sherborn $98,0000, or Acton $78,000 (average for all teachers), Dover $91,000, Harvard $86,000, Tisbury $80,000 average,
profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx

All of the salaries above have Defined Pension plans and health care for life to go with them. The above are completely unaffordable in today's world......of course no politician will touch them until there are some bankruptcies.

What is the average home price in those towns listed (Dover might be close the the richest town in MA or at least the top 5)? At those salaries can those teachers live in those towns? I bet the average income of those towns listed significantly exceeds the teacher salaries listed. The doctors, lawyers, Hedgies and PEs, Biotechies are likely ok with having the best teachers for their children and don't find those salaries out of line in those particular towns (Hedgies and PE's kids probably go to private school so they might be preaching austerity and privatization of schools for one of their education portfolio companies ).

[vt]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

One could just as easily trot out "Soros" and "left wing".

Since you don't answer facts with facts, the use of code words suggest a losing argument. And an argument that is not going to help the middle class, of which I am a part and wish to help.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

One could just as easily trot out "Soros" and "left wing".

Since you don't answer facts with facts, the use of code words suggest a losing argument. And an argument that is not going to help the middle class, of which I am a part and wish to help.

Yes, but in that case it would be largely bullshit. And if you want to help the middle class, the first step would be to get your head...straight and stop lining up with the folks who are working day and night to kill it.

But you won't, will you? Because it means you might actually have to (forgive me while I shudder) agree with people you consider leftists and L I B U R U LS!

Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!

[Andreuccio]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Anyway, I'm sure we'll miracle our way out of it.

That's the spirit!

[vinoveri]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

But you won't, will you? Because it means you might actually have to (forgive me while I shudder) agree with people you consider leftists and L I B U R U LS!

You mean like these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal

Or these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_liberalism

No, thank you.

I'd be on board brother if the left was more like - but it ain't brother, let's just face it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.


Communism got it right with the "brotherhood of man", but they forgot about "the fatherhood of God" and substituted the state for God, and it seems to me that modern liberals generally have made the same mistake (not saying the right ain't the bigger hypocrites on this point which they most certainly are), and therefore there solutions are piecemeal bandaids that are not sustainable b/c they don't understand true human freedom and are fueled by sentimentality.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

You know, it seems to me that something twisted has happened to mainstream discourse in the US over the past few years.

The whole left-right thing used to be about political goals. And the key questions were, "Are you in favor of hierarchy? Or are you in favor of equality?" Here, it's easy to see where the right and left are. And the tension happens in a context familiar to anyone who lives in a Republic. Should we go more small 'd' democratic? Or tighten up the small 'r' republican rule? It's a tension that has been at the heart of American politics for a very long time.

But now the whole damn thing has been re-cast. The key questions are becoming, "Are you in favor of state-intervention? Or are you against it?" It has cost billions to make people forget basic civics lessons and buy into this debate. And the debate is usually wholly unproductive. It's why we get nothing but gridlock. Old debates were more functional. The federal vs state government debate can be a rational one. But the 'drown it in the bathtub' debate is senseless. There has never been a working anarchy in the history of the world. Nor has there ever been a state that doesn't intervene.

And controlling this has always been the provenience of good government / rights-guard types like the ACLU. Which left the political sphere to work out more key questions, and the courts to do their jobs. And one could always go to a town hall meeting and vote down raises. But you had to look your neighbor in the face to do it. And it happened anyways. But it was not the end all and be all of politics.

And maybe where we talk past each other today is this. Some of us don't accept the defining questions of left-right to be interference or non-interference. We still view things in the old hierarchy vs equality dynamic.

Because once the debate is about state intervention or no state intervention, it turns every government on earth by definition into a corrupt, left-wing, socialist hell-hole. It makes the very existence of any government itself a socialist phenomenon, regardless of who owns what. Town meetings and community spirit become oppression by definition. You'd better just keep to yourself. And if one asks the questions, "Who benefits? Who has most of the property? Who has captured most of the wealth? Who's on top in this socialist world of ours?" one must get the answer 'government,' otherwise it shatters the illusion.

Liberty and freedom. Are they about making sure you are free and self-sufficient enough not to be dominated by others in any relationships public or private? Or are they merely about keeping government 'out?' When the debate gets shaped this way, the latter becomes the only way to frame it.

But look what reframing this debate gets us. Gone is a unified sense of civic duty or public service. Gone is a unified sense of justice in independence, especially in trade and commerce. Gone is any unified resistance to inherited success, aristocracy, and monarchy. Gone is any unified sense of duty or responsibility whatsoever to God or country. Gone is any unified sense of duty or responsibility to each other. Gone are citizens. In their place are consumers. By shifting our debate from hierarchy vs equality to intervention vs non-intervention, we lost sight of everything that matters. In exchange we received a fool's ticket for an infinitesimally small chance to win huge sums and fabulous prizes.

It was a bad exchange. A few families are taking it all the way to the bank. Most of the rest of us are losing. The teachers' pensions are going away with or without political furor. ZIRP was engineered to make sure of that way back under Greenspan. And Greenspan was a man who unabashedly believed in this new debate frame. So here we are. A middle-class consuming itself like ouroboros. Coffee-shop owners turning on teachers turning on software programmers turning on firemen. Instead of meeting each other and working to move our communities forward, we plot in the dark to rob what scraps are left from one another.

Meanwhile, the nobles are dropping 1,000 ducats each to buy seats on the Pregadi. And who should be surprised when they close the book on the Pregadi to all but their decedents and strip the Maggio Consiglio of its formal power? Is the end-game for men with voracious appetites for wealth and power ever to just get their share and leave yours alone?

A wealthy urban gangster once took a cobbler out to lunch. He held him by the arm and told him of all the good changes that would happen to the neighborhood now that he was moving in. He told him how everybody would benefit. The cobbler, somewhat skeptical, sat and listened. And by the end of the lunch he agreed. Not just the gangster's shoes, but all of his associate's shoes might soon mean good business and job security. But while he was eating that gangster had other plans. His buddies backed a truck up, filled it with shoes, then torched the place to make way for a new development. The lunch gave their boss an alibi. The cobbler, returning to his shop, fell to his knees and wept. The gangster, who had been walking down the street with him, put his hand on the cobbler's shoulder and said, "Boy, you're lucky we moved in when we did. You'll really need all the business you can get now! Listen, I'll lend you some money until you can get back on your feet. And I'll build a new, better building built in this spot. As soon as I do, I'll make sure nobody else rents that storefront. I told you us moving in was a good thing for you." The cobbler, still weeping, turned and shook the gangster's hand, thanking him profusely for his generosity and the free lunch. But the real tragedy of the story was that he cursed the butcher - his neighbor and friend of 20 years who owned the attached storefront - and blamed him for burning down the shop until his dying day...

[vinoveri]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Good insight DC; thank you.

Continuing with your anecdote, in my view, the federal government has become akin to a corrupt police force with some members on the take allowing the gangsters to run rampant, and others going undercover only to be absorbed by the gangsterland (think regulators and revolving door) and still a 3rd group bullying the locals because of their own ego-lust power and self-importance, but most just stuck in their jobs, supporting their familes. Whistleblowers are like Serpico.

[santafe2]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

You know, it seems to me that something twisted has happened to mainstream discourse in the US over the past few years.

Is it possible that the discourse is changing because political discourse in the US is irrelevant? At best, much less relevant. If Obama represents the left, to my mind, the argument on the left is completely irrelevant and capitulatory. How could it be relevant when there are too many people vying for too few scarce resources? The right gets that it's every person for themselves in a world with 7B+ humans. The left is still apparently trying to raise the living standard of the least among us while the right is busy crushing these same folks to dust if they can't prove utility. At this point the left in the US wants to be the 'nice' version of the right. That's why the right has no interest in discourse, the left has no ideas. I don't see this changing any time soon.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

That's why the right has no interest in discourse

I don't think this is true at all. I think there are two clearly different strands on the right. They both have an interest in discourse. Ideas still matter. To both sides of the isle. But the non-intervention vs. the traditionalist right is a competition of ideas I'm distinctly interested in.