Public Pension Millionaires

[lektrode]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Blame lies with hordes of disinterested citizens who don't read about local down budget votes. Leadership would be restrained if people would take an interest in what is happening politically at a local level instead of following things like http://www.examiner.com/article/brac...michigan-state

Good ole Bread and Circus has always kept the folks distracted from the important topics of the day.

EXACTLY!
its also precisely why NH's system STILL works the best - for The Public, aka We, The People who DONT feed at the .gov hogtrough - since there is NO BROADBASED TAX REGIME (read: .gov slushfund to keep the cronies/.gov unions/welfare class all voting a certain way...) - well.. until the ole 'state property tax' system got jammed down their throats - mostly by the newcomers, who after fleeing their former state(s) suddenly discovered that the rural areas dont have all the fancy schools/programs/funding (dont forget SALARIES) like they had back where they came from and set about re-creating the same as they just left behind - and if THAT WAS ALL SO FINE N DANDY -

why did they leave?

i'll tell you why - its because the political class sees a whole new field they can plow (under) and 'create jobs' with expansion of the buracracy - since, well... that sort of featherbedding has been shown to create voters who can be counted on to vote a certain way - thats why.

again - NH's 'town meeting' form of government, along with NO SALES TAX AND NO INCOME TAXES - means that most of the towns/counties get their 'funding' from PROPERTY TAXES - so when 'certain elements' start getting all 'activisted' and agitating for new schools/teachers/firetrucks/copshops and all the expense/overhead/benefits etc???

well - they have to come to town meeting AND RAISE THEIR HANDS TO RAISE THEIR OWN TAXES TO PAY FOR IT!

it also denies the political class their primary resource with which to BUY VOTES with - since they DONT have that blackhole of accountabilty known as a 'general fund' (that "doensnt tax thee, but the man behind the tree" = biggest BS story ever told and its mostly told by and TO those who vote a certain way)

the oligarchs are happy to see the plebes fight over the crumbs, while they take the cake.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...-union-workers
By now you've heard the cookie joke. You know: a CEO, a tea party member, and a union worker are all sitting at a table when a plate with a dozen cookies arrives. Before anyone else can make a move, the CEO reaches out to rake in eleven of the cookies. When the other two look at him in surprise, the CEO locks eyes with the tea party member. "You better watch him," the executive says with a nod toward the union worker. "He wants a piece of your cookie."

uh huh - and the dailykos is pure PARTISAN PROPAGANDA

the problem is .gov unions should have never been allowed (and it was who that did that?) - THEY HAD CIVIL SERVICE RULES AND PROTECTIONS - why did they need unions?

their existence is purely a conflict of interest for the political class - one side of the aisle in particular - who panders to them at every opportunity and rolls over every time 'negotiations' lead to the taxpayers getting hosed!

they fail to rein-in their demands, fail to budget honestly, which leads to OVERSPENDING and BORROWING from the future, to pay for the BUYING OF THE VOTES TODAY to maintain the status quo - along with their fat perks/salaries/pensions for life

and its all cover for THEIR MASTERS IN LOWER MANHATTAN - which i still say are (mostly) part of the same bunch.

who - beginning in the mid 1990s - when a stain on a certain little blue dress caused the biggest disruption of the .gov since watergate - distractions that allowed a series of events to transpire that led to the GIVING AWAY THE KEYS TO THE TREASURY - my guess, is that its exactly why wild bill moved - NOT back to ole arkansas - but to newyork?

and hey - its real simple from my POV -
since if it was the big bad oil co's (all run by a bunch of "GD Texas Republicans" - with apologies to texans and oil guys)
that had run the economy over the cliff - NOT ONCE BUT TWICE IN 10 YEARS ??

WE WOULD NEVER HEAR THE END OF IT from the (mostly) lib-dem-run lamestream media op/ed depts - who continue to
NOT CONNECT THE DOTS - IGNORE THE BIGGEST ORGANIZED CRIME IN ALL OF US HISTORY - while they focus on 'the most critical social issue of the day' -

and then try to blame it all on the previous occupant and rightwing partisan politix ?

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
it would be almost funny if this was all just a(nother) series of mere co-incidence - but the evidence is starting to suggest otherwise

[Raz]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

lektrode has some points here. I consider myself middle class. Since the late 90's my nominal wages have increased
2%. (That's not per year). In the mean time my state and local taxes have increased mightily. My home state of Illinois is constantly floating ideas to tax
new classes of items soda, red light cameras, services, usage tax. Fortunately I live frugally and have been able to absorb these taxes. However I am saving
less so we will see what happens when my kids have to go to college, and how much retirement I have saved.

Others who are not as fortunate as I, are going to be taxed out of their houses, their cars etc.

So yes public workers do not deserve to have their pensions cut, but the tax base just cannot support it anymore.
The politicians and wall street have over promised. the pension promises cannot be kept. I actually think a 401k would be the best
for the public employee's. That way the politician's cannot promise the moon. What are pension plans anyway but a wrapper around
an asset bundle just like a 401k?
I do agree that 401ks have been abused by employers filling them with over fee'd options.
But how are the fee's in managing a pension fund? I honestly don't know. In a way this is one of the reasons the pension funds are in such trouble. Just like the private sector 401k, the portfolios have languished for over a decade. Return on the S&P is something like 3% and bonds are not doing well either with low coupon rates. Any big blow up in the stock or bond market is going to be the death knell for these funds.

A few years ago, my wife's pension fund had a banner year when the market was up just a bit, and I wondered how. I went to the web site and saw all kinds of opaque hedge fund / derivative brokerage products etc. I didn't see a lot of AT&T, MCD, Exon, 20YT bond etc. I think they are reaching to catch up to the baby book teachers retiring and are reaching. I am prepared for the day when we receive 50c on the dollar for my wife's pension. It unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

Hey if anyone know how to fix this I'm all ears. Like I said I am sorry about this. I do not have pension envy or class envy.
I'm willing to forgo the summer festival, road repairs, etc if the money were to be steered to the pension fund, but I fear it
would be a spit in the bucket.

+1.

[Andreuccio]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Reposted elsewhere.

[Andreuccio]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

The problem is on the high end of the scale and pension plans - there is no money nto pay these obligations. After twenty years all teachers in Fairfax County are making $74,000 - $84,000 for 185 day a year job, with a defined pension. Advance degrees can take a teacher to $100,000 - $110,000 - where will the money come to pay the future obligations of these defined pensions. http://www.fcps.edu/hr/salary/salaryscales.shtml

The challenge with paying teachers is that you need hordes of them to run a education system that was first designed in the 1880s.

The money to pay for the future obligations of these defined pensions comes from money set aside now by the teachers, the districts, and the states.

In California, the teachers contribute 8% of their salaries to the pension. The District contributes another 8.25%. The state contributes 2.541%, for a total of 18.791% of teachers' salaries annually going to fund teacher pensions. The state contributes another 2.5% for "payroll purchasing power protection", for a grand total of 21.291% of teachers' salaries going to fund their pensions.

From the CalSTRS website, "The CalSTRS Defined Benefit Program is not a “pay as you go” system, with current employees paying for the benefits of those retired. CalSTRS takes the contributions of a teacher’s career and invests this money to finance the benefits teachers receive during their retirement years."

The pension funds were in fairly good shape until the "too big to jail" banksters looted everything:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...funds-20130926

and this link from lektrode on another thread:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/untouchables/

[Andreuccio]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

surprise?

uh huh - a pal of mine's wife - MA teacher, 30yrs - topped out at 72k, collects 60k/yr - or more than she wouldve avg'd for her entire career?

why i cant seem to cough up much sympathy for the 'plight' of teachers - yeah, sure - they dont get paid much at the start, for their 9mo/yr job - but if they can manage to hold on for 20or30 = JACKPOT baybee...

and THEN, we have the 'double-dippers' and 'triple-dippers' and even mo'bettah, the High3 Spikers, never mind the '89day contractors'

just gotta lu`uv how the mostly blue states political class + their UNIONS work this deal, huh?

meanwhile, we're told how its 'the rich' that are exploiting The Rest of US?

BS, i still say ITS THE POLITICAL CLASS and their LIES, their benefactors in lwr manhattan along with the rest of the limousine liberals and their co-conspirators in the social-welfare-edu industrial complex that are rigging the game against and at the expense of the rest of the working class!!

I don't understand the objection to double-dipping. A properly managed pension is funded with money that has been set aside and invested during an employees career. When the employee retires, the income stream from that money is used to pay the pension.

Aside from having a state entity manage the money rather than the individual, how does this differ from anyone else who invests his money and then at some point decides to start using some of the income, while still working?

[Andreuccio]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

I love this article by Biggs. The misdirection starts with the title.

"How to Become a (Public Pension) Millionaire"

The paragraph where Biggs discusses what he means by "Public Pension Millionaire" reads as follows"

"Unions claim that no one works for government to get rich, but many public employees become "pension millionaires" along the way. In Nevada, an average full-career state worker can expect to receive $1.3 million in lifetime pension benefits. Alaska, California, Colorado and Oregon all pay lifetime benefits exceeding $1.2 million. A wealthy, high-cost-of-living state such as Connecticut offers more than $1 million in average lifetime benefits to full-career employees who retire today; so does a relatively low-cost state such as West Virginia."

Apparently, for Biggs, millionaire doesn't mean "a person whose assets are over a million dollars", which is the traditional definition. Instead, a millionaire is someone who, over a long period of time, will earn over a million dollars.

We might as well decry the In-N-Out burger flipping millionaires, who, if they work from ages 16-65 at $11/hour, could also manage to earn over $1,000,000 during their lifetimes.

[BK]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Come on comparing workers are In-N-Out burgers to teachers... The cash value of a defined Pension plan for a teacher is probably in the $500K-$700K range, but it is the option to receive their payout as a percentage of the pay that makes them millionaires in the making.

Here is a good article http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...t-s-bankruptcy

Are you a municipal employee or related to one???

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

I love this article by Biggs. The misdirection starts with the title.

"How to Become a (Public Pension) Millionaire"

The paragraph where Biggs discusses what he means by "Public Pension Millionaire" reads as follows"

"Unions claim that no one works for government to get rich, but many public employees become "pension millionaires" along the way. In Nevada, an average full-career state worker can expect to receive $1.3 million in lifetime pension benefits. Alaska, California, Colorado and Oregon all pay lifetime benefits exceeding $1.2 million. A wealthy, high-cost-of-living state such as Connecticut offers more than $1 million in average lifetime benefits to full-career employees who retire today; so does a relatively low-cost state such as West Virginia."

Apparently, for Biggs, millionaire doesn't mean "a person whose assets are over a million dollars", which is the traditional definition. Instead, a millionaire is someone who, over a long period of time, will earn over a million dollars.

We might as well decry the In-N-Out burger flipping millionaires, who, if they work from ages 16-65 at $11/hour, could also manage to earn over $1,000,000 during their lifetimes.

I say now, wassdamadder with you son? Dontcha get it? Now son, if y'all keep on using so much common sense and even handedness, I say, you gonna spoil our little divide and conquer plan. Get with, I say, get with the program, son. Teachers, firemen other public employees are the enemy. If a teacher gets a secure retirement after 30 years of work, well dats practically communsim donchaknow. Now what kind, I say, what kind of American way of life is that, son?

[lektrode]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

The money to pay for the future obligations of these defined pensions comes from money set aside now by the teachers, the districts, and the states.

....The pension funds were in fairly good shape until the "too big to jail" banksters looted everything:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...funds-20130926

....

+1
agreed - and again, its NOT the teachers so much as the political class that is The Problem

and dont i just love it when eye see dem party apologists/aparatchiks efforts at discrediting anybody they have to and how they can manage to 'damn with faint praise' guys like matt who actually have the balls to call them ALL out -

and ya gotta lu`uv this guys handle (tm)

I’ll admit it. I love Rolling Stone columnist Matt Taibbi. He never fails to entertain and often makes some good points. But his hit job on Rhode Island’s pension reform – and state treasurer Gina Raimondo, its architect – was profoundly deceptive. In it Taibbi tries to discredit the need for pension reform by paint reformers as Wall Street puppets out to steal from poor workers by taking their pensions and handing them over to hedge fund magnates. But all he provides to back that up is innuendo, not evidence. (Full disclosure: I have done freelance writing for the Manhattan Institute, which Taibbi criticizes, though this response is purely my own). Omitting the Facts

First, who was responsible for Rhode Island’s 2011 pension reform? Taibbi spews forth a fountain of leftist shibboleths like venture capitalist, Goldman Sachs, Bain Capital, hedge funds, Enron, AIG, 501(c)4, the Koch brothers, “Republican-controlled state assembly” (of Ohio), etc. But one word never appears in the piece: Democrat.

GASP!!! - now dont tell me matt's a Republican?

Called the Rhode Island Retirement Security Act of 2011, her plan would later be hailed as the most comprehensive pension reform ever implemented. The rap was so convincing at first that the overwhelmed local burghers of her little petri-dish state didn't even know how to react. "She's Yale, Harvard, Oxford – she worked on Wall Street," says Paul Doughty, the current president of the Providence firefighters union. "Nobody wanted to be the first to raise his hand and admit he didn't know what the fuck she was talking about."


Soon she was being talked about as a probable candidate for Rhode Island's 2014 gubernatorial race. By 2013, Raimondo had raised more than $2 million, a staggering sum for a still-undeclared candidate in a thimble-size state. Donors from Wall Street firms like Goldman Sachs, Bain Capital and JPMorgan Chase showered her with money, with more than $247,000 coming from New York contributors alone. A shadowy organization called EngageRI, a public-advocacy group of the 501(c)4 type whose donors were shielded from public scrutiny by the infamous Citizens United decision, spent $740,000 promoting Raimondo's ideas. Within Rhode Island, there began to be whispers that Raimondo had her sights on the presidency.

Even former Obama right hand and Chicago mayor Rahm Emanuel pointed to Rhode Island as an example to be followed in curing pension woes.

What few people knew at the time was that Raimondo's "tool kit" wasn't just meant for local consumption. The dynamic young Rhodes scholar was allowing her state to be used as a test case for the rest of the country, at the behest of powerful out-of-state financiers with dreams of pushing pension reform down the throats of taxpayers and public workers from coast to coast. One of her key supporters was billionaire former Enron executive John Arnold – a dickishly ubiquitous young right-wing kingmaker with clear designs on becoming the next generation's Koch brothers, and who for years had been funding a nationwide campaign to slash benefits for public workers.

Nor did anyone know that part of Raimondo's strategy for saving money involved handing more than $1 billion – 14 percent of the state fund – to hedge funds, including a trio of well-known New York-based funds: Dan Loeb's Third Point Capital was given $66 million, Ken Garschina's Mason Capital got $64 million and $70 million went to Paul Singer's Elliott Management. The funds now stood collectively to be paid tens of millions in fees every single year by the already overburdened taxpayers of her ostensibly flat-broke state. Felicitously, Loeb, Garschina and Singer serve on the board of the Manhattan Institute, a prominent conservative think tank with a history of supporting benefit-slashing reforms. The institute named Raimondo its 2011 "Urban Innovator" of the year.

shes IN the game/declared now tho - with the usual and 'typical' soundbites

"core Democratic beliefs."

They included the following:


* Banning assault weapons, getting rid of high capacity magazines and letting cities and towns ban these weapons without asking the state's permission."
(read: to take the guns away - from The Citizenry vs the criminal class - we have to chip em away at every oppty)


* "Raising the minimum wage and indexing it with regular cost of living adjustments.
(read: create MORE unemployed as low margin biz goes to more automation/robotization - not that i disagree with the fact that 'federal' reserve created inflation has gutted the value of the min wage in the first place)

* Ensuring every four-year-old has access to pre-K"
(read: still yet MORE MORE MORE for the .edu-industrial complex)


* "Providing undocumented workers with drivers' licenses."
(read: give illegal immigrants the means to get on planes, take jobs away from citizens, vote in elections and TADA!!!! - create more dem voters)


Accused by her sharpest critics within organized labor of leading a major pension-cutting effort to enrich her "friends on Wall Street,'' the former venture capitalist added one more goal: "Holding Wall Street to the same ethical standards as everyone else in this country."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

yeah sure, whatevah her handlers and BIGGEST contributors tell her she needs to say to sound 'credible'

as pure lib-dem politix as it gets.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

...Are you a municipal employee or related to one???

Are you a HNWI or related to one???

[vinoveri]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

this has become one confusing thread

can we redirect somewhat and get the sparring going on the efficacy and appropriateness of "public service worker unions"?

I'll start: let's see, one works for the government as a public servant (OK, well at least to perform a "public service"). Seems to me that the public therefore should decide how it values that service and how to compensate and incentivize those workers - you get what you pay for - nevertheless, those who wish to go into public service should recognize that the public comes first; its seems to me somewhat of a ludicrous paradox that the public should subsidize a powerful lobby that may work against the public's interest (to the extent that lobby has the power to invoke "terror" amongst the population, e.g., no police, no fire, no teachers, no air traffic controllers ...)

make no mistake, I support the concept of guilds and skilled workers protecting each other by banding together, but being a "public servant" is somewhat different IMO (at least it used to be).

Many seem no longer concerned with "service" or doing good or responding to a calling, but more, what's in it for me, not singling out public service workers mind you as it is in our blood now in the USA. It is them against us it seems ("us" being our own special interest group whatever that may be and "them" being everyone else).

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

this has become one confusing thread

can we redirect somewhat and get the sparring going on the efficacy and appropriateness of "public service worker unions"...

What's got you confused, vino? I'm sure that you're entirely motivated by a desire to get to some truth and perhaps some consensus, rather than seeking affirmation of a predetermined conclusion. So instead of limiting the terms and frame of the discussion, why don't you let us first help you clear up your confusion?

What's got you flummoxed, friend?

[vinoveri]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Hey woods, I was getting distracted a bit by the implied ad hominems that were beginning to creep in ... and thought perhaps you and others could would have illuminating opinions on whether motivations for entering public service are or should be relevant to the discussion.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

See Vermont...

David Coates, a respected Vermont business person, recently shared an opinion piece expanding the concern he has expressed regarding the financial soundness of the state teachers’ retirement system and state employees’ retirement system to the Vermont Municipal Employees Retirement System (VMERS). There has been much in the press about the health of public pension systems across the country, and David’s concerns would be well-founded if targeted to them. I do have to draw the line when he asserts that there are problems with VMERS when he states, “Not only is the state in a crisis mode, but so are many of our cities and towns”.

VMERS is the defined-benefit retirement plan for 6,577 municipal and school employees working for 442 local governments. We currently have 2,146 retirees drawing benefits. It was created by the Legislature in 1974, and the Legislature continues to control the benefits provided and sets the employee contribution rates. A five-member board of trustees governs the operations of the system — the state treasurer, two representatives of municipalities and two representatives of local government employees. This board sets the employer contribution levels, among other duties. Currently, local governments (ultimately their taxpayers) contribute an average of 6.375 percent of payroll to VMERS while the employees contribute an average of 6.983 percent of payroll, depending on which of the four available plans they are in.

Mr. Coates accurately states that VMERS had a $5 million surplus in 2008, just as the Great Recession started. What Mr. Coates didn’t disclose was that in 1999, VMERS was funded at 125 percent of what was actuarially required to assure that all retirees would receive all the benefits that had been promised. That basically meant that taxpayers and employees had contributed almost $23 million more than what was required. That caused the VMERS board to lower the employer (read “taxpayer”) contributions by 8 percent and the employee contributions by almost 17 percent.

We also at that time implemented one of the solutions Mr. Coates now advocates — a defined contribution retirement plan for those who wished to choose that option and implemented a similar plan to set aside money for retirees’ health care costs. Municipal employees are not entitled to health care insurance, unlike the state employees’ and teachers’ plans. The defined contribution plan is an option for those municipalities that wish to offer it and for those employees who believe it is the better retirement option for them, but it remains an option not greatly used. We also purposefully reduced our contribution rates and deposited funds into health savings accounts that would benefit retirees without ballooning the liabilities of the taxpayers.

In 2008, we had just gotten down to a 100 percent funding status when our investments tanked along with the rest of the world’s portfolio. Mr. Coates compares that figure with the $82 million unfunded liability as of 2013 after the system had absorbed all losses from the market crash five years prior. (Retirement funds generally do not count gains and losses within a one-year period, but rather phase them in over five years to smooth the impacts of market volatility.) That still leaves VMERS funded at 84.4 percent of full funding.

In response, we have raised contribution rates for both employers and employees twice, with the second increase going into effect on July 1, 2014. The rates for the vast majority of employees in the system are still below those we were charging in 1999. Our actuarial report shows (on page 8 of the report) that our combined contribution rates now in effect are more than sufficient fully to meet all the financial needs of the system over time.

VMERS is a well-funded, responsibly structured public pension plan. Its benefits are competitive, certainly not excessive. The responsibility for assuring fiscal soundness is shared fairly equally between employers and employees. The problems seen in other pension plans come from politicians and employee groups agreeing to increase benefits while sidestepping the long-term funding responsibilities. Until the market downturn, VMERS had been operating at a surplus since its inception 35 years before. The VMERS board of trustees remains committed to returning to that status in the near future and remaining that way, assuring that municipal employees have a safe and secure retirement to look forward to.

http://rutlandherald.com/article/201...ON06/702239888

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Hey woods, I was getting distracted a bit by the implied ad hominems that were beginning to creep in ... and thought perhaps you and others could would have illuminating opinions on whether motivations for entering public service are or should be relevant to the discussion.

Ad whominem, boss? Oh, you must mean Foghorn? See, that's a joke, son. Dontchagetit?

Anyway, you have fun with your little motivation thingy.