Public Pension Millionaires

[jk]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

The middle class is an quickly dieing class. Right now we have very special groups within the middle class and they are called public employees.

yes. let's make sure they get kicked OUT OF the middle class too! that's obviously the solution to our problems!

[especially since there is apparently no interest in figuring out ways to raise more people INTO the middle class, instead. or perhaps just no hope, since the american oligarchy has captured our political system.]

[lektrode]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

yeah, but its the middle class in the private sector that is being milked to death to support an ever larger public sector burden, mostly due to the POLITICAL CLASS promising the moon out of one side of their face and telling us "we'll not tax thee, but the man behind the tree" out of the other...

and again, it NOT the teachers themselves, nor most of the rank n file in .gov workforce that is the issue - its the constant pressure for MORE, MORE MORE - meanwhile We, The People - meaning The Rest of US not on the .gov payrolls are starting to cough/hack/wheeze hauling the load...

...
the suggestion in this thread is, essentially, LET'S SCREW PUBLIC EMPLOYEES, ESPECIALLY TEACHERS, THE WAY PRIVATE EMPLOYEES HAVE ALREADY BEEN SCREWED. IT'S NOT FAIR THAT THEY DON'T GET SCREWED TOO!

[shhh! let's not look at who is benefiting from all these changes. please see my signature illustration below.]

well is it 'fair' that the burden on the middle/working class of carrying the over-bloated/out-of-control .gov buracracy thats been pumped up near continuously for the past 50-60years - of which 'public education' is certainly a major factor, esp at state/local levels - see whats happened in NH over the past 10-20years - with a 60% increase in spending - in the face of a 10% decline in enrollment ??? - with the .edu-industrial complex fighting any/EVERY attempt to rein-in or challenge the status quo (defined as: MORE MORE MORE!!!! every year, no matter what the circumstances)

meanwhile, RESULTS continue to 'stagnate' regardless of skyrocketing expenditure ? even tho some states low spending per pupil doesnt necessarily mean lower RESULTS:

Trying to unpick the spending data for results is frustrating. A comparison of standardized test scores between the top and bottom spenders – Washington, D.C. and Utah – results in an inverse of expectations. The National Assessment of Educational Progress (or, NAEP) is a continual assessment of American students. Uniform tests are administered, and results can be compared by state.

Utah, who spent the least in education spending in the 2009-2010 period, tended to score higher than the national averages, except in fourth and eighth grade writing. Washington, D.C. pupils had scores lower than the national averages. Utah has more schools and students, but fewer teachers than Washington. Even when federal revenues are added to the equation, Utah still spends less per pupil than Washington, DC.
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The spending paradox is visible internationally as well. The United States spends more on education per student than any other developed country in the world, according to a report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (or, OECD). The report pegs federal per student spending in the U.S. at about $15,171 per student. The OECD average was $9,313. Even with a hefty education price tag, students in the U.S. do not out-perform their international peers.

THEN we have the private schools - where the wealthy (and most of the political class in some states) send THEIR kids - mushrooming tuition is even becoming a problem FOR THEM??? (oh the problems they have to deal with....)

and its the same with higher-ed, medical services&insurance, housing etc, ad nauseum

EVERY PLACE THE .GOV THROWS BUCKETS OF MONEY AT: we see mushrooming costs/expenses/liabilties

so - what we end up with is A GOV THAT WE - in the working/middle classes - CAN NO LONGER AFFORD

sure, taxes DO need to be raised (on the top.. oh, i dunno - pick-a-percent - group) - BUT GOV SPENDING HAS TO BE REINED IN

and NOT just for the BIGGEST recipients of corporate welfare in history - but across the board, and some sort of reform of the .edu-industrial complex - which we NEVER hear out of one particular side of the aisle - has to be included, as well.

and had there been some ACTION ON PRIVATE SECTOR JOBS or at least some coherent PLAN to create some in the PRODUCTIVE economy - we might even have a real 'recovery' in earnings and revenues that could support .gov expenditures - but so far - all we've heard is MORE OF THE SAME chin music for the 'oppressed minorities' - and whats more important than that (when pandering for another 1% margin of 'victory')

again - those of us who WONT GET ANY KIND OF PENSION are starting to question/object why is it always MORE MORE MORE for the protected/crony/political classes and then when we do, "we're being played/manipulated by 'the rich'" ?

sorry - i dont buy it - but i'm open to reviewing/discussing the evidence...

[lektrode]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

.....

[especially since there is apparently no interest in figuring out ways to raise more people INTO the middle class, instead. or perhaps just no hope, since the american oligarchy has captured our political system.]

+1
but its more like the POLITICAL CLASS has sold-out to the oligarchy

and the only thing they are worried about is THEIR OWN RE-ELECTIONand maintaining the status quo at any/all costs - while they fight about the arrangements of the deck chairs

whats happened since 2008/09 proves it conclusively

[BK]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

JK,
Do you have a teacher or other municipal employee in your extended family?

My exaggeration was to make a point that the current pay and benefits aren't sustainable. But, in many communities they hold their property tax over ride votes on a weekday and make sure all municipal employees vote.

Instead, we should be at least struggling with slimming down the pay/benefits in order to allow the system to survive.

But, most communities are on their way to being Detroit and not one wants to give up a single dollar of future benefits to keep the system going.

regards.

[vt]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Meanwhile the the great majority of private workers, who make less than teachers and other government workers are soon to see their social security benefits cut in some manner. What about the higher income employees? Oh, they'll see their benefits "means" tested, which means they may not get any. Try that with a government pension.
What is most upsetting is that the high spending politicians (of our taxes) have been raiding the social security trust fund for "other" (read crony boondoggle projects) federal expenditures

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...changes-social

The pitchforks will be seen soon at the local county seats and city halls.

[sishya]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

I know Physicians working in county jobs, whose employers contribute more than 50K / year as pension contributions.
But it does not matter much to them, they are still leaving jobs even with that kind of benefits. They don't think long term
and are not attracted to that, because it is in the future.This year half the department left, wherein they had to give 10% salary hike
to remaining folks in Internal medicine.

[jk]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

the oligarchs are happy to see the plebes fight over the crumbs, while they take the cake.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...-union-workers
By now you've heard the cookie joke. You know: a CEO, a tea party member, and a union worker are all sitting at a table when a plate with a dozen cookies arrives. Before anyone else can make a move, the CEO reaches out to rake in eleven of the cookies. When the other two look at him in surprise, the CEO locks eyes with the tea party member. "You better watch him," the executive says with a nod toward the union worker. "He wants a piece of your cookie."

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

The US is a big, variable place. I’m familiar with two municipal budgets. Both city councils have been debating what to do with surpluses during the last three years, as are 15 states. Taxpayers in both cities are on the hook for less than 10 % of retirement and benefits paid out to former public employees. Sure there are big cities in line to become the next Detroits. And global financial Armageddon may be around the corner, but I find this hyperbole way off.

most communities are on their way to being Detroit

[charliebrown]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

lektrode has some points here. I consider myself middle class. Since the late 90's my nominal wages have increased
2%. (That's not per year). In the mean time my state and local taxes have increased mightily. My home state of Illinois is constantly floating ideas to tax
new classes of items soda, red light cameras, services, usage tax. Fortunately I live frugally and have been able to absorb these taxes. However I am saving
less so we will see what happens when my kids have to go to college, and how much retirement I have saved.

Others who are not as fortunate as I, are going to be taxed out of their houses, their cars etc.

So yes public workers do not deserve to have their pensions cut, but the tax base just cannot support it anymore.
The politicians and wall street have over promised. the pension promises cannot be kept. I actually think a 401k would be the best
for the public employee's. That way the politician's cannot promise the moon. What are pension plans anyway but a wrapper around
an asset bundle just like a 401k. I do agree that 401ks have been abused by employers filling them with over fee'd options.
But how are the fee's in managing a pension fund? I honestly don't know. In a way this is one of the reasons the pension funds are in such trouble. Just like the private sector 401k, the portfolios have languished for over a decade. Return on the S&P is something like 3% and bonds are not doing well either with low coupon rates. Any big blow up in the stock or bond market is going to be the death knell for these funds.

A few years ago, my wife's pension fund had a banner year when the market was up just a bit, and I wondered how. I went to the web site and saw all kinds
of opaque hedge fund / derivative brokerage products etc. I didn't see a lot of AT&T, MCD, Exon, 20YT bond etc. I think they are reaching to catch up to
the baby book teachers retiring and are reaching. I am prepared for the day when we receive 50c on the dollar for my wife's pension. It unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

Hey if anyone know how to fix this I'm all ears. Like I said I am sorry about this. I do not have pension envy or class envy.
I'm willing to forgo the summer festival, road repairs, etc if the money were to be steered to the pension fund, but I fear it
would be a spit in the bucket.

[jk]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

JK,
Do you have a teacher or other municipal employee in your extended family?

no

My exaggeration was to make a point that the current pay and benefits aren't sustainable. But, in many communities they hold their property tax over ride votes on a weekday and make sure all municipal employees vote.

Instead, we should be at least struggling with slimming down the pay/benefits in order to allow the system to survive.

But, most communities are on their way to being Detroit and not one wants to give up a single dollar of future benefits to keep the system going.

regards.

and my point is that you're missing the point: the system is rigged, the middle class is being destroyed, and you have become an agent of the oligarchs by directing your attention, and your animus, to other members of the middle class, instead of toward those who are truly exploiting our system.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

I was talking to an army vet today. Granted, he’s a little too much of a doomer for me, but he’s fun to have a beer with. I brought up pensions. He said…

‘The pentagon is considering 401K’s. They will opt first and then everyone else in the public sector will cower. The fire brigades will go back to being private. If you don’t pay your subscription, your house will burn to the ground. Public education will only be mandatory until 12. There will be armed guards at the doors of the emergency room doors, and the rest of the world will snicker.”

http://www.military1.com/military-ca...irement-system

[wayiwalk]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

The middle class is an quickly dieing class. Right now we have very special groups within the middle class and they are called public employees.

I don't know.

I used to be in the upper middle class and now am falling smack dab in the middle of the middle class. Their numbers are growing slightly.

[BK]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

I agree with you. The first step in righting the system would be to strip the politicians of their pensions. Then we can probably have an honest discussion.

I've had to listen to a friend who talks like every one in the town he teaches in is a wealthy hedge fund manager, and that teachers should never be working without a contract. I know numerous private sector employees who are working with out a contract and that means no pay.

I think you could agree their has been as much greed from the Public sector employees as the Oligarchs.

[flintlock]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

You can't blame public sector employees for taking the money, its leadership that bears responsibility.

[BK]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Blame lies with hordes of disinterested citizens who don't read about local down budget votes. Leadership would be restrained if people would take an interest in what is happening politically at a local level instead of following things like http://www.examiner.com/article/brac...michigan-state

Good ole Bread and Circus has always kept the folks distracted from the important topics of the day.