Public Pension Millionaires

[vinoveri]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

IMvHO for any retirement system to be truly successful it ~must~ take into account human weakness.

Will

+1.
I might also suggest that the design and implementation of any long term sustainable political and economic system must also take into account human weakness (and human nature generally) including the temptations that power bring and the tendency to be corrupted. The knowledge for how to have a relatively just society exists; unfortunately we resist that path.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

+1. I might also suggest that the design and implementation of any long term sustainable political and economic system must also take into account human weakness (and human nature generally) including the temptations that power bring and the tendency to be corrupted. The knowledge for how to have a relatively just society exists; unfortunately we resist that path.

Human weaknesses, biases, instincts and stupidity, we mustn't forget stupidity. If a political system cannot survive having a dumb leader, than it's no good. Minimize the size to minimize the spread of risks and the costs of mistakes.

Voting began Sunday on a referendum on whether Venice and its surrounding region should secede from the rest of Italy, in an attempt to restore its 1,000-year history as a sovereign republic.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03...de-from-italy/ Sovereign city states making a comeback in our lifetimes?

[Penguin]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Very good point vinoveri. A key phrase in there is "long term".

We're past masters at developing systems and strategies that ignore human weakness in the interest of short term profit and/or convenience and/or political expediency. We've got to start thinking past the next quarter in this country.

Will

[shiny!]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

My wife is a teacher. No, the salaries are not unreasonable. Just keep in mind the benefits are often huge. 2 months paid vacation in the summer. Every possible holiday you can think of, all paid. Spring break, Christmas, etc. Never have to work a holiday or weekend. They have one of the best medical plans available. If I had to go back to buying it on my own a comparable plan today would probably be in excess of $15,000 year! My kids can go to any school in the district they wish. Free after school program. We even get a discount on our cell phone plan. $45k is not bad money and when you add in the benefits its more like $60,000+. Prorate it over the 9 months they actually work and its comparable to a $80,000 year round self-employed type income. Not bad for some 20 something right out of college. Teaching Elementary kids is tough but it ain't rocket science. Then it just goes up from there, with added bonuses for more education, time on the job etc. Great retirement $. All in all, not a bad career, though you will never get rich doing it. So what? Should you?

People have a tendency to consider "benefits" as something everyone gets, and not to be considered in terms of compensation. They are not standard for a lot of people by any means. Plenty of college grads working at Starbucks these days. Most of the teachers in my area feel very happy with their pay, happy in fact just to have a job.

Starting salary in Apache Junction Unified School District in the Phoenix Metro East Valley is $33,227 for a BA. Highest possible salary for 7+ years teaching with a Ph.D is a whopping $43,797.

Pay is for the year, every two weeks for 9-1/2 months, then a lump sum at the beginning of the summer break to carry over until the next term begins. The lump sum payment is taxed at a higher rate because it's considered a high rate of pay for a two-week pay period. Yay.

Teachers at AJUSD get 1/2 of their health plan paid by the district. Coverage for spouse and children is offered but not paid by the district. It gets deducted from the teacher's paycheck.

Working for nine months while being paid for twelve sounds like a great deal, but doesn't take into account all the extra unpaid hours worked after school and on weekends grading papers, doing lesson plans, filling out excessive documentation for administrators, supervising extracurricular activities such as school clubs and athletic events...

It doesn't take into account the money teachers pay for mandatory continuing education and accreditation renewals, either.

I don't know any teachers who love the teacher's unions or attend union meetings. They are union members because the unions provide them lawsuit protection.

[vinoveri]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Will, agreed.
I can't help but think that elements of modernism and secular humanism play a role, albeit smaller that our own natures, in short circuiting the long term planning (ironically b/c these world views are the ones which ought/may/does? in principle be seeking a longer term solution).

Belief in transcendent meaning, eternity, "divine" justice, whether heaven/hell, nirvana etc, and a happiness derived from doing the "right thing" by yourself, neighbors and progeny b/c one believes in some underlying "purpose" to existence can be a powerful driver in looking at actions and planning long term.

I suspect that the cultural shift toward secular humanism, notwithstanding its good points and there are many, will continue to seep into our consciousness and it will be very hard to keep individuals from more turning in on themselves and looking to themselves. It's one thing to recognize we are all part of the same "humanity". It is quite another to get people (at least imo) to sacrifice for the "greater good" and plan for the future when there is no sense of purpose/meaning for in the end we are all individuals and all mortal.

[lektrode]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

The “article” is a divide-and-conquer piece. Its title and the use of “typical” throughout the first half are disingenuous. One million $ divided by the average number of years lived after retiring at 65 = fifty thousand $ per year.

with ALL due respect, TN - the only ones that its dividing are THOSE BENEFITTING/getting FAT off taxpayer largesse and those who are 'on the outside looking in' at the public-sector's substantial perk$ that seem to only go UP, no matter what happens to The Rest of US.

and what happened in 2008-09, with a few givebacks, salary cuts, layoffs - in spite of 'the stimulous' which only temporarily bailed out the most profligate budget-busting spenders in mostly dem-controlled states/cities is EXHIBIT A

and i should once again say that I'M NOT PICKING ON THE TEACHERS - not the rank n file anyway - really, this stuff ISNT about the rank n file workers in the public sector.

its about the POLITICAL CLASS (on one side of the aisle in particular) catering/pandering to the public sector unions and them wielding the treasury - at all levels - as IF it was their own campaign slushfund with which to buy the votes of their base and to hell with everybody else -

and WHO PAYS FOR ALL THIS?

'the rich' have options, lawyers, accountants and private jets to get out of/around almost anything thats been attempted to stick them with the bill for all the promises that have been made by THE PANDERING PARTYof Special Interests to buy the votes of ever smaller slivers of the electorate

and we wont even get into that one particular sliver who got the goldmine, while main street/The Rest of US GOT THE SHAFT

You know even the california worker making 81k is not that much. It is expensive to live there. Here in the craddle of corruption Illinois, we have reports of people with enormous pensions 150K, 200K ... and up. They are few in number, but it really is distasteful, to see taxes go up every year and here some lard ass
(usually an administrator not a rank and file worker), Walk away with jumbo pension.

exactly what i'm talking about - and the lardasses primary qualifications?
mostly just being a loyal party aparatchik and simply lasting long enough in/thru 'the system' - by virtue of being a member of their union, with seniority (vs merit or performance) to get upto/into the upper ranks where they are rewarded for their politix, get bumped-up the ladder and into the 6figures for a couple of years and THEN RETIRE WITH A 6FIGURE PENSION??

after just putting in their time and 'paying their dues' TO THEIR UNIONS - with them leaning on the political class in any 'negotiations' on wages and work rules etc and using 'binding arbitration' - most 'typically' a one-way street - that SCREWS the general public, aka The Rest Of US

My parents were teachers. The kickers of teaching came in during the 1990s with increases of 1-3% every year, and those increased continued into the 2000s. Luckily most people have no clue about the power of compounding.....the teachers unions get it. The votes for over rides never require a quorum - just get the municipal employees who live in the town. The whole system seems completely unsustainable to me......

eye see same in my old hometown in NH - they stack the town meeting with their crew and contiuously scream for MORE MORE MORE - regardless of the ability of the taxpayers to shoulder the burden.

in the real world, if business has a good year, raises and more hiring might be in order - if its a bad year, or theres a sector decline, there's cutbacks/givebacks/layoffs (cept in the exec suite, but thats a diff issue)

why should things be any different in the public - read: POLITICAL sector? (since they no longer represent 'the public' at large, only the protected/crony/gov class

A lot of lifetime govt workers take those pensions for granted. That's why some complain about low teacher pay for example. It completely escapes some that most of us will never get a dime in pension. With people living longer, that can be a huge difference. Of course, we live in the era of instant gratification, so no surprise some ignore the long term benefits.

and theres the fact that lot of the public sector retirees will collect for far longer than they ever worked/paid-in - with the other shoe dropping here, which is the rate of compounding expected thats supposed to pay for all this - what, 8% ? - how is that going to happen with ZIRP and zilch for yields for all these years?

all we can expect from here is either MUCH HIGHER TAXES to support this new gov-retiree-class entitlement, or they will have to adjust to the new realities that The Rest of US are now facing: that for the first time EVER, the next gen will NOT have it better - so whos going to pay the price (for the FAILURE of the political class to deliver on all THEIR promises) ??

No, the salaries are not unreasonable. Just keep in mind the benefits are often huge. 2 months paid vacation in the summer. Every possible holiday you can think of, all paid. Spring break, Christmas, etc. Never have to work a holiday or weekend. They have one of the best medical plans available. If I had to go back to buying it on my own a comparable plan today would probably be in excess of $15,000 year! My kids can go to any school in the district they wish. Free after school program. We even get a discount on our cell phone plan. $45k is not bad money and when you add in the benefits its more like $60,000+. Prorate it over the 9 months they actually work and its comparable to a $80,000 year round self-employed type income.

exactly!!!
my med ins was over 6grand/year - and to PAY 6grand, one has to bill more like 10 to net the 6
just couldnt do it anymore - now i'm on a scam.. i mean 'plan'... with a 5000/ded that costs 'only' 3300 (and hoping i dont need to use it) until i can come up with something better...

again, dc - I'M NOT PICKING ON THE TEACHERS - its their unions+political class over-promising/OVER-SPENDING = THE PROBLEM)

[BK]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Sorry but you should be picking on teachers. Every city and town has huge pension obligations that are unsustainable and the bulk of the future receipients are teachers. Look at the budget of any small town and the bulk of the budget is labor costs/pension costs/ and healthcare costs. The vast majority of the people who receive these salaries and benefit are teachers. Compare number of policemen or DPW to the huge numbers of teachers required to run a school system. The vast numbers of bodies required to run these schools is precisely why teachers are over paid. The salaries getting paid out in many large cities were made up by bureaucrats, politicians, and union officials. If teachers are so hard to find why can't my friend with a degree in mathematics and a master degree get a math teachers jobs.
Fire all the teachers tomorrow and renegoitiate the contracts. I know a number of under employed college educated folks who would love a teaching job at $45K-$65K. Why can't we restaff all teaching positions with H1 visa personnel?

Imagine how much more money the average home owner would have if we could slash 25-30% off salaries and eliminate defined pension plans.

How much more disposable income would the average home owner have?

Let's start a Fire All the Public Teachers movement and restart the system.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Sorry but you should be picking on teachers. Every city and town has huge pension obligations that are unsustainable and the bulk of the future receipients are teachers. Look at the budget of any small town and the bulk of the budget is labor costs/pension costs/ and healthcare costs. The vast majority of the people who receive these salaries and benefit are teachers. Compare number of policemen or DPW to the huge numbers of teachers required to run a school system. The vast numbers of bodies required to run these schools is precisely why teachers are over paid. The salaries getting paid out in many large cities were made up by bureaucrats, politicians, and union officials. If teachers are so hard to find why can't my friend with a degree in mathematics and a master degree get a math teachers jobs.
Fire all the teachers tomorrow and renegoitiate the contracts. I know a number of under employed college educated folks who would love a teaching job at $45K-$65K. Why can't we restaff all teaching positions with H1 visa personnel?

Imagine how much more money the average home owner would have if we could slash 25-30% off salaries and eliminate defined pension plans.

How much more disposable income would the average home owner have?

Let's start a Fire All the Public Teachers movement and restart the system.

Why not just set the schools on fire, too? Maybe with the students in them. That way we really get a fresh start.

[BK]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Frankly the future solutions to all of our problems lie with those children. Parenthood has taught me we adults (including teachers) take way to much credit for the amazing things these creatures we call children are capable. The answers lie with their ability to see things differently why do they need to be burden with paying $60K- $90K pensions for teachers who could be replaced in the heart beat.
This TED presentation says it all about children's ability to learn: http://www.ted.com/speakers/sugata_mitra

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Frankly the future solutions to all of our problems lie with those children....

Yes, but this crop just doesn't seem to be cutting it. Test scores are down and we've even had to rejigger the SAT again. We can do better. Okay, maybe we IQ test the little tykes and keep the top 10%, Jack Welch style? As for the rest, consider it "survival of the fittest" in action. Children are our future, so better we cull the unproductive and low IQ runts now else we'll be dealing with the burden of feeding and housing all this surplus population in a few years. Really, it's the compassionate thing to do.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Let's start a Fire All the Public Teachers movement...

[jk]

!

401k's are failures FOR WORKERS because:
1. an underpaid worker is not going to choose to put current income aside
2. the average worker is not good at investing
3. investing ultimately means giving the banks their cut, over and over, as they churn the portfolis.

401k's are successes for CORPORATIONS because:
1. they severely limit future obligations
2. they divest responsibility for their workers' futures.

further, corporations through increased cost sharing, higher deductibles and higher copays, are ever increasing the load of healthcare costs on their employees, instead of exerting what could be their strong influence to control cost increases. why bother using their power as big purchasers to control health costs? that would take work and thought on their part, and cost them at least some money in managerial talent dedicated to that process. far easier to just offload more of the costs onto the workers, who have little or no bargaining power with either their employers or the health care companies.

the suggestion in this thread is, essentially, LET'S SCREW PUBLIC EMPLOYEES, ESPECIALLY TEACHERS, THE WAY PRIVATE EMPLOYEES HAVE ALREADY BEEN SCREWED. IT'S NOT FAIR THAT THEY DON'T GET SCREWED TOO!

[shhh! let's not look at who is benefiting from all these changes. please see my signature illustration below.]

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

The problem is on the high end of the scale and pension plans - there is no money nto pay these obligations. After twenty years all teachers in Fairfax County are making $74,000 - $84,000 for 185 day a year job, with a defined pension.

Pension math can be fun, but it's way too complicated for Itulip.

In the 14 states where teachers don’t contribute to or receive SS, those teachers contribute an average of 8% of their salaries towards their retirement. 60,000 salary = a contribution of about 5,000. Start from there, grab a “retirement calculator,” and see what happens as you plug in interest rates, ages, etc. States can easily cover their average 1.2 million in retirement payouts.

Now, factor in how many people leave before they retire. I was in that boat. I left after 5 years. I had contributed about 12,000. I got out 14,000, less than 1 % during a period where the average earnings on a 10-year treasury > 10%.

So, go down to the local school and ponder how many of these people are going to draw a pension?

50 % will leave before year 7.

It changes the whole debate in my opinion.

[BK]

Re: !

What do you tell the private sector sap in New Jersey who see their property taxes raise every year.

I agree - the 401K was designed to help corporations. Public pensions are killing the middle class - every property tax raise to me Public employee largesse is a dollar out of the local economy.

[BK]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

The middle class is an quickly dieing class. Right now we have very special groups within the middle class and they are called public employees.