Public Pension Millionaires

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Thailandnotes, here's the real data; your figures are low

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...tate-by-state/

Here's the average for American citizens:

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

Teachers appear to be doing better on salary, plus their benefits are a lot better.

Good for them.

If there is a disconnect between private and public sector salaries, then the private sector should do better by its employees rather than demand the public sector hurt theirs.


In any event, this move is straight out of the Koch divide and conquer handbook and it is they who are funding much of this. Those call for this are either knowing or unwitting agents of FIRE. It astounds me that we are surrounded by bad actors and malfeasance sucking billions from the public treasury for their private gain, yet you folks want to come after my neighbors and my community.

Not a chance.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Here is Data:
Massachusetts - average salaries http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_r...rsalaries.aspx
Chatham NJ - Starting pay $55,000 http://www.chatham-nj.org/page/235
Wayland Mass contract link - starting pay is $42,000 http://www.wayland.k12.ma.us/UserFil...forpdf_002.pdf
Chicago Public School Salary data 2011 - lots of well paid teachers: http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/At-a-gl...r_08_01_11.pdf
DadeCounty Florida data: $32,000 - $70,000 http://www.dadeschools.net/spanish/e...df05/App_E.pdf
DadeCounty proposal - starting salaries to go to $40,0000 - http://www.dadeschools.net/employees..._successor.pdf
New York City teacher salary data $45K-$100K http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/...edule20083.pdf
Buffalo New York Teacher salaries http://www.buffaloschools.org/upload...0Table.xls.pdf
Burlington-VT $29,000-$55,000 http://bsdweb.bsdvt.org/Board/budget0304/d3.htm

Please let me know if I need more data to make my case.

Thank you

So what? I'm supposed to be impressed that a contract teacher in Waltham makes $42K a year as some threat to the survival of the nation? Puh-leeze.

You've made no case other than you think the fiscal problems of the nation should be fixed on the backs of what is left of the middle class. Pick on someone your own size and stop doing the bidding of the people who want to make serfs of us all.

[BK]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Mr Woodsman,
Thank you for your thoughtful commentary.
Best regards.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Mr Woodsman,
Thank you for your thoughtful commentary.
Best regards.

Right back at you, pal.

[Andreuccio]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Thailandnotes, here's the real data; your figures are low

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...tate-by-state/

Here's the average for American citizens:

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

Teachers appear to be doing better on salary, plus their benefits are a lot better.

I don't disagree that Thailandnotes' figures might be low for teachers' salaries. But it's misleading to compare teachers' salaries to salaries of the average American worker.

To be a teacher, at least in California, requires a bachelor's degree, (4 years of university level work), and a teaching credential (1 more year if done concurrently, 2 if done separately). To move up on the salary scale requires significantly more university level work.

How much higher education is required of the average American citizen who's salary is shown in the website you link to?

[vt]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Don't forget that teachers have longer vacations, and don't work summers. Maybe they work 185 days a year vs. 240 for the average American. Don't forget the very generous benefits vs. the average American. Teachers can retire earlier with full benefits, and have a greater job security.

All of the above except days worked applies to other public employee vs. private employees.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

I don't disagree that Thailandnotes' figures might be low for teachers' salaries. But it's misleading to compare teachers' salaries to salaries of the average American worker.

To be a teacher, at least in California, requires a bachelor's degree, (4 years of university level work), and a teaching credential (1 more year if done concurrently, 2 if done separately). To move up on the salary scale requires significantly more university level work.

How much higher education is required of the average American citizen who's salary is shown in the website you link to?

Arguing on the basis of the premises put forth by the Kocks/CATO is a fool's errand, Andre. They've been proven liars and prevaricators, time and again. If we are going to defeat these people, it is high time we stop playing by their rules. They care nothing about the interests of the largest cohort of Americans and are content to see our country and our people in penury, so long as they get to rule over the rubble.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Don't forget that teachers have longer vacations, and don't work summers. Maybe they work 185 days a year vs. 240 for the average American. Don't forget the very generous benefits vs. the average American. Teachers can retire earlier with full benefits, and have a greater job security.

All of the above except days worked applies to other public employee vs. private employees.

The pay structure and distribution of teachers on a nine month school calendar has been explained here on multiple occassions, yet you keep trotting out that red herring. Can't you smell how bad it stinks by now?

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Arguing on the basis of the premises put forth by the Kocks/CATO is a fool's errand, Andre. They've been proven liars and prevaricators, time and again. If we are going to defeat these people, it is high time we stop playing by their rules. They care nothing about the interests of the largest cohort of Americans and are content to see our country and our people in penury, so long as they get to rule over the rubble.

[vt]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Serfs?

One can easily make a case that some business people are overpaid by salary alone. However, this misses what it took to get there, such as Doctors who work for peanuts before finally starting practices at the upper 30's and are more and more seeing revenues contract. Or small business owners who risk their life savings and put in 60-80 hour weeks for possibly years with few benefits.

One has to be very careful with class warfare talk.

Here's a suggestion: "Punish excess, not success".

You have to be careful here too. If someone has made great contributions in an ethical way, provided employment for many, trade balance enhancers, large charitable contributions, and other benefits to society in addition to hefty contributions to the tax authorities; then you should not deny them of higher income and assets.

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Serfs?

One can easily make a case that some business people are overpaid by salary alone. However, this misses what it took to get there, such as Doctors who work for peanuts before finally starting practices at the upper 30's and are more and more seeing revenues contract. Or small business owners who risk their life savings and put in 60-80 hour weeks for possibly years with few benefits.

One has to be very careful with class warfare talk.

Here's a suggestion: "Punish excess, not success".

You have to be careful here too. If someone has made great contributions in an ethical way, provided employment for many, trade balance enhancers, large charitable contributions, and other benefits to society in addition to hefty contributions to the tax authorities; then you should not deny them of higher income and assets.

These fellows start the class war, use psychological and unconventional warfare to fight it and then when they come across someone who knows their game they wail "ooohh, class warfare."

Or maybe they think it is only HNWI and accredited investors who work hard and take risks?

Typical right wing claptrap. Suggest they take the balloon juice to Free Republic or Town Hall. It's getting precious little traction here.

[Andreuccio]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Arguing on the basis of the premises put forth by the Kocks/CATO is a fool's errand, Andre. They've been proven liars and prevaricators, time and again. If we are going to defeat these people, it is high time we stop playing by their rules. They care nothing about the interests of the largest cohort of Americans and are content to see our country and our people in penury, so long as they get to rule over the rubble.

What do you propose?

[Woodsman]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

What do you propose?

I propose to finish out the workday and head to the beach. From there, I'll play it by ear.

As for the macroeconomic mess we're in, raise wages and reduce unemployment through a massive program of domestic spending to revitalize the economy according to EJ's TECI proposal. Chris Cole's Capital Spillway is another fine proposal that I would be pleased to endorse, FWIW.

But all of this is academic when I really think about it. It is not going to happen. The avenues for meaningful opposition have been closed down. No form of organization will survive the panopticon surveillance and the coordinated efforts of the state security forces. If any such bottom up movement were to gain traction, their leaders would be either cooped or marginalized and if necessary, liquidated. And as we saw with the tea party, the remants would be redirected into meaningless areas of contention.

The door is closed. The deal is done. The right won a decisive victory. There is no meaningful opposition left that can lay a glove on them. For the vast majority of Americans, things will progressively get worse. In time, a Janszen Scenario may come to pass and it will be here where our oligarchs will make their best shot. I expect they will win and if not, there's always war. In fifty years time we may even abandon the pretense of democracy, republican government and the consent of the governed, if only so the obvious lie does not stick in the craw of J4P (six packs will be too expensive).

"Thanks for the last and greatest betrayal of the last and greatest of human dreams."

[Andreuccio]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

Hmm. Sorry l asked.

Looks like I caught you on a bad day. I'll try back another time.

[BadJuju]

Re: Public Pension Millionaires

That's how I feel, Woodsman. Any meaningful recourse has been exhausted by this point. It is just going to be one long slide into oblivion for humanity. The gulf in power between the common people and the elite is too great a divide to overcome. And they can so easily turn the common people against each other now.