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  • Oil to $60.....by January?

    This seems a bit of a stretch, but who knows for sure. SeeForbes.com article from 11/12/07 below.

    Oil at $100 a barrel? No way, says one defiant expert. Expect $60 crude--soon.
    War in Iraq, destabilization from Turkey, unquenchable thirst for energy in Asia, millions of fuel-slurping SUVs still cruising American highways. No wonder oil prices have jumped above $90 a barrel on the new York Mercantile Exchange, on their way to $100.
    Not so fast. According to some longtime observers, we will soon see $60 oil. Their argument is that the main driver of price spikes is something hardly mentioned these days: a miscalculation by the world's most important supplier, Saudi Arabia. And within the next two months that miscalculation will be corrected and oil prices will drop. "It's sure getting set up for a hard fall," says George Littell, partner at Groppe, Long & Littell, a Houston firm that has advised oil drillers and investors on the outlook for crude prices since 1955.
    Here's how Littell sees it. Last year Saudi petrocrats thought demand would slacken at the same time that oil production rose from sources outside the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Nations. They cut back Saudi production from 9.5 million barrels a day in March 2006 to 8.5 million a year later in order to keep supply and demand balanced and crude prices hovering around $60 per barrel.
    The Saudis got one part of the equation right. The International Energy (otcbb: IENI.OB - news - people ) Agency puts world demand at 85.9 million barrels a day, up only slightly from 2006. And among the 30 industrialized nations that make up the Organisation for Economic Co-operation & Development, demand has fallen by 100,000 barrels a day over that period.
    But the Saudis overestimated non-OPEC production. While companies of many oil-producing nations are pumping cash into the declining oilfields of the North Sea, the Gulf of Mexico and elsewhere, those projects haven't contributed as much crude as analysts expected. "If demand is less, what's got to be driving the price of oil is lower OPEC production," Littell concludes. "It's a miscalculation on their part."
    Check out the relationship between prices and production in the accompanying chart. The Saudis hold the key to long-term oil prices since they are one of the few exporters--Kuwait and Abu Dhabi are the others--with the ability to increase production significantly. Littell says the Saudis realized their mistake and began pumping more oil in May. At the most recent OPEC meeting on Sept. 11 members agreed to boost production by another 500,000 barrels a day starting Nov. 1. That increase included a bump in the Saudi quota to 8.9 million barrels a day.
    How long before we get some relief? It takes at least a week for the Saudis to complete the paperwork necessary to ship oil to new customers, including arranging letters of credit and other financial details. Then the oil rides in a ship across the Atlantic for 30 days. Add them together and Littell expects the impact of all that additional oil to hit U.S. markets in a couple of months or so. The Saudis "didn't plan on $80 oil," he says. "They wanted to keep it around $60 and did the wrong thing."
    Not everyone buys this argument. Certainly not the speculators who've been kicking up the price of oil on the NYMEX for more than a year. Leo Drollas, chief economist at the Centre for Global Energy (otcbb: GEYI.OB - news - people ) Studies in London, believes that oil prices will fall eventually, but not until the middle of next year. Refiners are still trying to refill inventories that dropped to the lowest levels since 2003 after an unexpected cold snap in North America at the beginning of this year. The increase in OPEC quotas, Drollas calls "too little, too late." Besides, he says, "We're facing a winter with low [inventories], and the market's woken up to this." The mess in Iraq, which ships 1.5 million barrels a day through the Persian Gulf, and brinksmanship by Iran may keep prices from falling quickly.

  • #2
    Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

    You may glean some more from this sub-thread at the oil drum

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

      I saw that yesterday Gordo - Groppe, Long & Littel are a very reputable firm. Henry Groppe is one of the most authoritative people around to make that call, maybe one out of a half dozen most seasoned analysts in petroleum. So now more than possible. Seems a $15 to $20 drop in price is now much more feasible.

      That's a very fortunate turn of events for you. I was frankly stunned by the size and concentration of put ypu made on oil. A $25,000 USD put on a single index is a "high roller's" gambit. In my book it's an appropriate sized bet for a seasoned investor with a net worth of 5 million or more.

      Anyway I'd be the first to congratulate you for a very satisfactory exit from the trade. But if your strike is around seventy you are still going to be pushing the envelope to turn it into big money, no?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

        Lukester,

        I have 29 put contracts. Each contract is 1000 barrels so I control 29,000 barrels (for which I paid 79 cents per barrel) i.e I have a right to sell 29,000 barrels at $70 per barrel at any time until May 15.

        If oil goes to $60 I would make $10 per barrel i.e. 29,000 X $10 = $290,000 profits. Of course, the 79 cents per barrel premium and the brokers commission of about $70 per contract (about $2,000 total commission) would have to be deducted.

        Still I would make about $265,000.

        Dream On.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

          Gordo - I appreciate your audacity and admire your nerve. Bears watching real closely when oil pulls back below $80.

          To tell you the truth, I'm a big supporter of those who win big by risking big. A lot of people begrudge them obscene profits when / if they win, but if you are willing to stick your neck on the chopping block and then you do win, I remain a firm defender of your merit.

          Equally if one loses, I maintain they should take their loss stoically, as they are playing a risky game.

          Let us know how you do Gordo - and if you score the big one let us know.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

            Originally posted by Lukester View Post
            Equally if one loses, I maintain they should take their loss stoically, as they are playing a risky game.

            Let us know how you do Gordo - and if you score the big one let us know.
            Thank you, Lukester. I know your support is sincere.

            As for losses, I still have about a 95% chance of losing the whole $25,000 invested or at least a large part of it.

            But, DREAMING FURTHER, please see the latest internet Daily FX report on oil below.

            With China discovering more oil every day, giant hedge funds are bailing out of their long oil positions and the potential might have a mild winter—$50 oil is a distinct possibility. This report shows you how to exploit what may be a tremendous opportunity—which indicators herald an oil price drop and which currencies win and lose from oil price fluctuations

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

              Gordo - I don't want to be encouraging your rsky play, as speaking for myself, it would give me a very bad case of nerves. But Henry Groppe is about as close to the "fountain of truth" in this sector as you can get. The problem is your strike price. It's risks being $5 - $10 too low?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

                Originally posted by Lukester View Post
                Gordo - I don't want to be encouraging your rsky play, as speaking for myself, it would give me a very bad case of nerves. But Henry Groppe is about as close to the "fountain of truth" in this sector as you can get. The problem is your strike price. It's risks being $5 - $10 too low?
                Lukester,

                I know you are not encouraging my "risky play" but you are just saying " I hope you win" even though you would not make the same play. That is what I mean by your "support" i.e. you just hope I win.

                As for oil, with the break below $90 on Friday, it may be the price is starting to move down and I have read that is when the shorts start "piling on" i.e. few will start a trend down but after it starts, lots of people join in.

                Therefore, it may be time to add to my position (June oil 70 puts are selling for 99 cents now, up from 79 cents when I bought them.) I'll see what happens tomorrow, Monday morning.

                Although nobody likes to lose, I can handle it financially if I get "scalded" so I am still DREAMING ON.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

                  Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
                  You may glean some more from this sub-thread at the oil drum
                  Thanks, Rajiv, for a very informative thread. Lots of experts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

                    Originally posted by Lukester View Post
                    I saw that yesterday Gordo - Groppe, Long & Littel are a very reputable firm. Henry Groppe is one of the most authoritative people around to make that call, maybe one out of a half dozen most seasoned analysts in petroleum. So now more than possible. Seems a $15 to $20 drop in price is now much more feasible.

                    That's a very fortunate turn of events for you. I was frankly stunned by the size and concentration of put ypu made on oil. A $25,000 USD put on a single index is a "high roller's" gambit. In my book it's an appropriate sized bet for a seasoned investor with a net worth of 5 million or more.

                    Anyway I'd be the first to congratulate you for a very satisfactory exit from the trade. But if your strike is around seventy you are still going to be pushing the envelope to turn it into big money, no?
                    There is almost always a seasonal high in crude in late Oct/early Nov. It's quite well known and a lot of the prop desks play it every year. The seeding of stories in the financial media is all part of the game. It rarely pays to bet agains Goldman Sachs.

                    Nothing fundamental has changed, and people that claim that OPEC or the Saudi's "made a mistake" are blowing smoke. And anyone that thinks that oil is going to $50 and stay there has no idea what it costs to run the Saudi economy. OECD inventories continue to decline slowly with the curve in backwardation. Maybe global warming will save the Northern Hemisphere from another harsh winter. Maybe Goldman and the shorts can engineer a spike down and make another pile of dough. But nothing short of a full blown global recession is going to create negative oil demand growth in the near future. At the margin oil supply is getting more difficult. The pink slips are being handed out in Alberta, as the government's royalty increases clobbered an industry that was already on the downslope. A story we are seeing repeated for a variety of reasons in many jurisdictions around the globe. Just the fear of a price decline reduces access to capital in a very capital intensive industry, and once projects are shelved it takes time to get them back on the budget. My guess is any supply overhang will be worked off rather quickly in this cycle.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

                      Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                      Just the fear of a price decline reduces access to capital in a very capital intensive industry, and once projects are shelved it takes time to get them back on the budget. My guess is any supply overhang will be worked off rather quickly in this cycle.
                      This is my view also GRG55. I'm glad to see it reiterated by someone within the industry. All the talk of collapsing global oil demand will be revealed to be bunk.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

                        Originally posted by Lukester View Post
                        This is my view also GRG55. I'm glad to see it reiterated by someone within the industry. All the talk of collapsing global oil demand will be revealed to be bunk.
                        While OPEC makes headlines, its the problems at the margin that intrigue me. I think the Alberta Govt has created a bit of a political problem for itself. Although the royalty changes are not the only reason for the severe stresses in the Canadian oil patch (high Cdn $, low nat gas prices, rising service sector costs all played a role) it is going to get most of the blame as it was the last to pile on.

                        An associate of mine was forced to sell his company last week to a larger firm at a steep discount to NAV because the capital markets and bankers have withdrawn support for all but the companies that don't need the money. Although the response will be delayed due to the momentum of existing project commitments, even in the oilsands there is a shift underway as the Govt seems to have forgotten that every oil sands player of any significance has assets and operations outside Alberta and Canada. At some point expect an announcement of the formation of a Govt owned petroleum company. That's what they did last time - Alberta with AEC (now Encana Corp) and the Feds with Petro-Canada. There is just no way that I can see how there won't be less oil and less natural gas produced in Canada than there would have been otherwise. And exports to the USA will be the first place that sees that outcome.

                        With the economy and tax collections in the UK about to take a turn down for the Govt, I wonder if Gordon Brown will pluck the North Sea tax goose yet one more time.

                        Jim Rogers recommendation to own the commodity itself may prove correct as the companies are having trouble improving margins at $90 oil; at $50 they'll be starving (and Saudi will be flirting with a fiscal deficit, which is why the Houston analyst that said they want $60 oil is wrong).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

                          Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                          While OPEC makes headlines, its the problems at the margin that intrigue me. I think the Alberta Govt has created a bit of a political problem for itself. Although the royalty changes are not the only reason for the severe stresses in the Canadian oil patch (high Cdn $, low nat gas prices, rising service sector costs all played a role) it is going to get most of the blame as it was the last to pile on.

                          An associate of mine was forced to sell his company last week to a larger firm at a steep discount to NAV because the capital markets and bankers have withdrawn support for all but the companies that don't need the money. Although the response will be delayed due to the momentum of existing project commitments, even in the oilsands there is a shift underway as the Govt seems to have forgotten that every oil sands player of any significance has assets and operations outside Alberta and Canada. At some point expect an announcement of the formation of a Govt owned petroleum company. That's what they did last time - Alberta with AEC (now Encana Corp) and the Feds with Petro-Canada. There is just no way that I can see how there won't be less oil and less natural gas produced in Canada than there would have been otherwise. And exports to the USA will be the first place that sees that outcome.

                          With the economy and tax collections in the UK about to take a turn down for the Govt, I wonder if Gordon Brown will pluck the North Sea tax goose yet one more time.

                          Jim Rogers recommendation to own the commodity itself may prove correct as the companies are having trouble improving margins at $90 oil; at $50 they'll be starving (and Saudi will be flirting with a fiscal deficit, which is why the Houston analyst that said they want $60 oil is wrong).
                          in one of ej's old comments back when the site was this ugly puke yellow before it "improved" to garish green he wrote that you can't get mining stocks right. crooked management. goofy hedge books and other nut-ball financial engineering. stupid buyouts. etc. buy the metal. did rogers say the same?

                          this George Littell is a big swinging dick in the business. is his rep less important to him than his giant short? that's all i can think of to justify his $60 call.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

                            I'm doing a hasty back-tracking on Groppe, Long & Littel's "astute market call", in the face of these comments.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Oil to $60.....by January?

                              Originally posted by metalman View Post
                              in one of ej's old comments back when the site was this ugly puke yellow before it "improved" to garish green he wrote that you can't get mining stocks right. crooked management. goofy hedge books and other nut-ball financial engineering. stupid buyouts. etc. buy the metal. did rogers say the same?

                              this George Littell is a big swinging dick in the business. is his rep less important to him than his giant short? that's all i can think of to justify his $60 call.
                              Rogers has recommended holding the commodities instead of the mining companies for much the same reasoning as EJ's comments you listed.

                              As for the price call, trying to forecast the oil price is a mugs game. He may be right, or he may be completely wrong; we won't know until after the fact. However, the longer prices stay high, the more the "system" in the producing countries adjusts. Higher taxes and royalties, bigger public budgets, more govt programs, direct govt investment or take-over of assets...all these things and more create a dependency and a desire for continued higher oil prices. And now we have the petro-dollar SWFs. Now why on earth would Saudi "want" $60 oil? What is so magical about that number? Nothing actually. And that's why its best not to take oil price forecasters too seriously.

                              Originally posted by Lukester View Post
                              I'm doing a hasty back-tracking on Groppe, Long & Littel's "astute market call", in the face of these comments.
                              No need to backtrack. They are a reputable firm. It's just that they have never proven themselves any better at forecasting oil prices than anyone else. And everyone else is pretty abysmal.

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