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  • Electric car free charging station roll out

    In the suburbs of Tokyo, free charging stations are starting to spring up. Full charge in 30 minutes. Last I heard, the plan was to roll out 50,000 stations across Japan in a few years. Also, we are transitioning to smart meters and you can choose pricing plans so charging at home is 10 cents a kwh at night.

    Tesla has rolled out enough free charging stations that you could drive from Florida to New York to Los Angeles to Seattle for free already. What is surprising is that the number of charging stations then goes ballistic in 2014 and it is nearly complete in 2015.
    See the last four maps.
    http://www.treehugger.com/cars/tesla...s-usa-too.html

    However, almost all trips are local and under 100 miles, so I don't know if this is such an important point. After all, if you had an electric car with a 100 mile range, that would do for 99% of your trips, and if you really wanted to go from Tokyo to Hiroshima, you would rent a gasoline car, take the train, or fly. Gasoline is $6 plus a gallon in Japan, so filling up a 15 gallon tank would cost about $100, whereas charging at one of the stations would be free, or if the battery holds 25 kwh, even if you did it yourself at home, at night, it would $2.50 to drive 100 miles.

    My understanding is that GM used to make money in three ways: providing car loans, selling spare parts, and selling the car, in that order. The killer for their first electric car, the EV1, was that the spare part sales would be very low. Clearly someone was losing money or would lose money if the transition were made to electric cars, so sabotage.

    Once autonomous driving share electric cars roll out, that will be it for most cab drivers. (There are already gasoline car sharing companies here where you pay a flat fee of a couple of hundred dollars and can take a rental car several times a month.) Electric autonomous cars can also do deliveries. The local supermarket is starting a spend $30 and they will deliver anywhere within 5 miles with a driver. Imagine how much cheaper and easier that would be with an autonomous electric car.

    So, the end point for this, which I expect by 2020, is autonomous electric cars with superb anticollision features (I rode a Subaru, and the $2,000 autobraking is absolutely stunning... it is essentially impossible to crash the car into anything), much lower accident rate, much cheaper operation, much cheaper insurance, you can order one to come to your home at a specific time, it will take you to your destination, and then leave, so no time spent looking for parking and much less need for parking (parking lots can then be converted to buildings or something useful) you will pay a couple of hundred bucks per month for say 20 round trips, which will cover going to and from your house to the station or to wherever, walking distance to the station will be much less of an issue, so the premium for housing close to the station will go down (more deflation), and this could even make traveling to and from the suburbs practical again (not that suburbs are necessarily a good thing). This is a reason I think the estimates of public transportation use, such as for the train now being built in Honolulu, vastly underestimate the ridership. They had better make the stations really long for when they have to double the length of the train. Just ask the Japanese train engineers: retrofitting is a bitch and is unbelievably expensive.

    My cousin just bought two Nissan Leafs for $150 a month each, no interest on the loan, and he is happy he can charge them for free.

    One other thing about electric cars: they have a substantial amount of electricity that could be used to run a household, etc. If an electric car holds 25 kwh, it could run my apartment for several days. After the big quake in 2011, people with electric cars took them to hospitals and let the staff use the electricity. It was a way of moving electricity from where the grid still worked to where it didnt. Municipalities are now looking at electric buses not just from the point of view of cost, but also from the point of view of the buses being able to supply electricity in emergencies. This will be massively deflationary. It is already here.

    Hmm, from posts below, people dont seem to believe autonomous cars work. They already exist and work fine. There are just regulatory matters to work out, which will take years. There are autonomous planes that are already in trials for FedEx etc. If you have landed in the fog in Denver, the plane was completely landed by computer. Next come the autonomous trucks. Will there be accidents? Of course. But much fewer than with humans doing it.

    Where will the electricity come from? Japan already cut its electricity use 30% over the last 5 years, with no end in sight. LEDs use 90% less electricity, and all the incandescents are going. My office replaced computers, office equipment, and lighting, and cut electricity use by 80% with no change in standard of living. It was simple and didnt really cost anything since the computers were old and had to be replaced anyway, and the building is 35 years old and the lighting would have to be rewired soon anyway. They did all 10 floors, so that is like a drop of 2,000 kwh per day for the building, about what 200 standard houses would consume here. And the retrofitting is accelerating in Tokyo. All highly deflationary. Now the cool roofs (white titanium dioxide) are catching on. JR trains are all being replaced with regenerative braking trains that use half the electricity. Things keep getting better and better here, and no, it is not reflected in the GDP.
    Last edited by mooncliff; February 05, 2014, 06:21 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

    Geez mooncliff, I'll have some of what you're smoking. And your in Japan. Don't you guys have a bit of an electricity problem right now? Giving something away for free does wonders for conservation.

    And just a bit of math, 100 miles on a charge, and then you have to charge for 30 minutes (no wear on charging and battery components?). So now your leisurely drive From New York to Florida goes from 20 hours to 30. Your free electricity cost you a hotel and two more meals. Free charging stations sound like a nice idea, but increase the range by 3X and decrease the charge time to 1/3rd and it's something to consider.

    And a Nissan leaf for $150/month? That's a base $30K car. You're glossing over some very big details about that deal.

    As for the autonomous car, sounds all fine and dandy, except A) Autonomous cars are a long way away from mass production, and B) Somebody has to make a profit off of running the fleet, and C) 50 years after the words "too cheap to meter" were spoken and electricity is still anything but "too cheap to meter"

    But it sounds like a nice dream, enjoy it while it lasts.
    Last edited by Fox; February 05, 2014, 12:32 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

      Originally posted by Fox View Post
      Geez mooncliff, I'll have some of what you're smoking. And your in Japan. Don't you guys have a bit of an electricity problem right now? Giving something away for free does wonders for conservation.

      And just a bit of math, 100 miles on a charge, and then you have to charge for 30 minutes (no wear on charging and battery components?). So now your leisurely drive From New York to Florida goes from 20 hours to 30. Your free electricity cost you a hotel and two more meals. Free charging stations sound like a nice idea, but increase the range by 3X and decrease the charge time to 1/3rd and it's something to consider.

      And a Nissan leaf for $150/month? That's a base $30K car. You're glossing over some very big details about that deal.

      As for the autonomous car, sounds all fine and dandy, except A) Autonomous cars are a long way away from mass production, and B) Somebody has to make a profit off of running the fleet, and C) 50 years after the words "too cheap to meter" were spoken and electricity is still anything but "too cheap to meter"

      But it sounds like a nice dream, enjoy it while it lasts.
      It's not just Japan, Fox.

      Cali and Mass and RI and probably other states have installed free state charging stations too, I believe.

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      • #4
        Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

        Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
        It's not just Japan, Fox.

        Cali and Mass and RI and probably other states have installed free state charging stations too, I believe.
        Ah yes, the enduring allure of the myth of the "free" lunch. Somebody, somewhere is going to pick up the tab for all those "free" services. Count on it!

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        • #5
          Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

          Originally posted by mooncliff View Post

          My cousin just bought two Nissan Leafs for $150 a month each, no interest on the loan, and he is happy he can charge them for free.
          If they're available for $150/month, I'll take one. Would you mind posting or PMing details about how to get this deal?

          Thanks

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          • #6
            Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

            How long before there's meters on those "free" charging stations? Where's the tipping point?

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            • #7
              Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

              Originally posted by don View Post
              How long before there's meters on those "free" charging stations? Where's the tipping point?
              was going to post something about 'where's all them KWH's going to come from', but gotta go to an appointment to observe climate change

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              • #8
                Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

                Japan already cut its electricity use 30% in the last 5 years. Thats where its coming from. Oh, and by the way, climate change is real even if you dont like it.

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                • #9
                  Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

                  If you want to go cross country, fly. No one is going to do that on a daily basis.
                  Yep, he got two Nissan Leafs for 150 a month each. I think they wanted to make way for the new models. No, he is buying them at that price.
                  The cars here are already semiautonomous. Automatic collision avoidance, if you stray from the lane it warns you, etc.
                  The appliances here use 1/3rd or even 1/10th the electricity they do in the US.
                  Really, take a trip. You will be shocked. US engineers who come here are just in shock when they see the energy efficiency.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

                    I dont know. Even if they charged commercial rates, it would be like $20 dollars to go 400 miles with electricity versus $100 for gasoline. And most people here dont care because bus and train passes for everyone to go to work are paid for by the employer. Even someone who works at MacDonalds would get a pass to go to and from work paid for by the employer.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

                      personally I think electric cars are great for daily use and commutes. They make a lot of sense in the "two car" society around here were an ICE can be used as backup for road trips. And hell, at $150 a month, I'd take two as well. The two combined would still be less than my current car payment. But I don't think your cousin's deal is practical to discuss as far as the economics of electric cars go. Sounds like the dealer gave them away. A big questions in that case is "why?"

                      But I don't think all electrics will fill more than a niche. They may sound fine and dandy under today's parameters, but when extrapolated to the future and to widespread use the economics break down. Who's going to build the grid expansion as we head to bubble burst 3.0? Where is all the new lithium production going to come from? There's a reason why China is the only country in the world willing to touch the stuff. Anyone figure out the Fireball problem yet? etc, etc.

                      Solutions? Sure. but they're all "To Be Announced". And as we've seen many times before, "Too be Announced" often turns in to "Never too be Announced" because the practical implementation just doesn't work out.

                      All in all, we'll see how it goes.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

                        Do you think hybrids trump all-electric at this time?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

                          Originally posted by don View Post
                          Do you think hybrids trump all-electric at this time?
                          I'm a "Keep it simple" type of person. I think hybrids are the worst of all worlds.

                          Electrically and Mechanically complex. Lots of failure modes and weak points. Expensive to buy, expensive to repair. A fun gadget to play with, but not a serious vehicle IMHO.

                          I'm still a big fan of my diesel Passat. Perhaps a repair bill will come to bite me one day, but I love having a nice big comfy car to drive with the kids on long distances and still get 45mpgs.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

                            Originally posted by Fox View Post
                            I'm a "Keep it simple" type of person. I think hybrids are the worst of all worlds.

                            Electrically and Mechanically complex. Lots of failure modes and weak points. Expensive to buy, expensive to repair. A fun gadget to play with, but not a serious vehicle IMHO.

                            I'm still a big fan of my diesel Passat. Perhaps a repair bill will come to bite me one day, but I love having a nice big comfy car to drive with the kids on long distances and still get 45mpgs.
                            I can't argue much, Fox. The hybrid reliability issue is mitigated a bit by two things.
                            First, the electric drive motor is vastly more reliable than an internal combustion engine, so it is a penalty to weight but not really to reliability.
                            And the internal combustion engine can be little more reliable in a hybrid IF the system is set up so the engine is not connected to the road wheels, just purely turning a generator.
                            But that big battery is still a battery, hard to get any battery to live for ten years.

                            Your point about small diesels is spot-on.
                            For the near future they are a much better approach overall, getting almost as good fuel economy with none of the complexity of the hybrid drive train.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Electric car free charging station roll out

                              I will pass this on. My daughter was flirting with the idea of buying one.

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