Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

[Woodsman]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

Like what, Woodsman, a narrative pieced together using possibly random, unrelated events? Edit: I've previously pointed out that half of the people on the list weren't bankers. Now I see that suicides and murders are being grouped together into one grand narrative.

Slim, I get it. You're of the opinion it is random and our monkey brains are seeing patterns where none exist. Point taken. And neither of us know anything for certain except these people are dirt napping.

I'd love to have a 9th Grade Civics view of the world and live in certainty that the state and its proxies abide by the same rules as me and thee, but that notion left me about 40 years ago and I've never been able to recover it. You know as much as any iTuliper about the blurred lines and revolving doors between the elite banks and the state. You know the impunity by which the state and the bankers act. You've seen the "systemically important" banks engage in one extralegal activity after another and time and again the state protects them. You've seen elite bankers/politicians commit acts that are criminal in fact and intent. And you know that if the state feels an action is necessary to maintain order as it understands it, it takes it.

It's a matter of disposition, I think. Some by their nature and experience are predisposed to deference to authority, others to suspicion of it. Ask a young, college educated and middle class woman if the state abides by its own laws and you are likely to find plenty who agree with the premise. Ask the same question of a young, college educated middle class black male and you're likely to get a far different response.

[don]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

that notion left me about 40 years ago and I've never been able to recover it.

the only salve for that epiphany is $$$ (as in self-aggrandisement)

otherwise you're stuck with your insights . . . .

[Slimprofits]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

We craft narratives and connect dots (instinctively) and (or maybe because) this creates the (comforting) illusion of understanding. But we really don't know what we don't know. Despite the fact that people (including bankers and government officials) do bad things, the illusion of understanding still applies to both of the viewpoints that you described. We then ignore disruptive facts in order to maintain the illusion. Employees of auto manufacturers and reinsurance companies magically become bankers. The nature of news and the reporting of these events (that is, not everything that happens everywhere is covered by google news) is ignored as is the probability of suicides as is numerous other possible factors that we may never be capable of imagining. Forget the 9th grade, I think it was my 5th grade science teacher that taught "never ASSUME", as it can make an ass out of you and me.

[Woodsman]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

We craft narratives and connect dots (instinctively) and (or maybe because) this creates the (comforting) illusion of understanding.

Slim, that's a very measured and reasonable view. We craft narratives and create an illusion of understanding as a defense against uncomfortable thoughts. Eminently reasonable and I find myself in near perfect agreement with you.

Since we're reminiscing about grade school, do remember your Orwell?

The first and simplest stage of discipline, which can be taught even to young children, is called in Newspeak, Crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.

George Orwell, 1984

Lines up nicely with your premise, this notion of "protective stupidity."

As you say, we really don't know what we know and in many cases we're left with only what we believe. And so it seems to me that this is one of the primary means of immobilizing people - holding them in a state of confusion in which anything can be believed but nothing can be known. Surely most are more than willing to be held in this state because to know the truth — as opposed to only believing the truth — is to face an awful terror. I speak here not of the terror springing from the knowledge that such nefarious things occur, although that is terrifying enough. There exists a terror infinitely greater. Because in moving from belief to knowledge, it becomes impossible to evade responsibility.

It might be that a majority of people believe there is something nefarious in the passing of these men, but as we agreed they don't know it. And they don't want to know it, because knowing it would mean actually having to do something about it. And that is the most terrifying thought of all. For to accept it even as a possibility, they must then confront the knowledge that a system which once they looked to for security and protection has turned against them. And the more adult a person, the more their identity and personality is formed, the more identified they are with that system, the more terrified they are of seeing what stands plainly before them. Surely those in power count on this and it is this mindset that permits them the freedom of action they enjoy.

We craft narratives to create an illusion of understanding as a defense against uncomfortable thoughts and ignore disruptive facts in order to maintain the illusion. I couldn't agree more.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

http://www.theawl.com/2014/03/whats-...anker-suicides

Statistically speaking, there should be 23.75 suicides a year in the finance industry in New York City alone. Six suicides in the first quarter of the year would be "right on track" (I know, gross, sorry) for 24 suicides in 2014. Except then when you read the story, two of these suicides were in London, one was in Singapore (that was Autumn Radtke), one was in Hong Kong, one was in Washington state, one was in Stamford, one was in Syosset, and then only one was in Manhattan.

Would anyone like to check the rigor of The Awl writer's use of probability and statistics? Frankly, it's not one of my strongpoints. There are 2,000,000 bank employees in the USA alone (source)... How about globally?

[vt]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

Number 14

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...-her-superiors

[Andreuccio]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

Statistically speaking, there should be 23.75 suicides a year in the finance industry in New York City alone.

Personally, I think there should be a lot more suicides per year in the financial industry. ;)

Regarding the actual statistics, (with the caveats that, first, I haven't been following this story too closely and, second, what I remember most clearly from my stats class was that through most of the quarter a future Miss USA sat on one side of me and another equally attractive coed sat on the other side), I can see at least one potential flaw in his argument.

He cites the number of total finance workers in New York. He doesn't specify, but I assume that includes everyone from the Lloyd Blankfein to the lowest bank teller. However, the banker suicides conspiracy story, as I understand it, has to do with upper level bankers. One would have to look at the number of bankers at that level and compare that to the overall suicide rate to determine if enough bankers were actually killing themselves.

Hope that helps.

[don]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

Pam Martens and Russ Martens of Wall Street On Parade,

It doesn’t get any more Orwellian than this: Wall Street mega banks crash the U.S. financial system in 2008. Hundreds of thousands of financial industry workers lose their jobs. Then, beginning late last year, a rash of suspicious deaths start to occur among current and former bank employees. Next we learn that four of the Wall Street mega banks likely hold over $680 billion face amount of life insurance on their workers, payable to the banks, not the families. We ask their Federal regulator for the details of this life insurance under a Freedom of Information Act request and we’re told the information constitutes “trade secrets.”

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the life expectancy of a 25 year old male with a Bachelor’s degree or higher as of 2006 was 81 years of age. But in the past five months, five highly educated JPMorgan male employees in their 30s and one former employee aged 28, have died under suspicious circumstances, including three of whom allegedly leaped off buildings – a statistical rarity even during the height of the financial crisis in 2008.

There is one other major obstacle to brushing away these deaths as random occurrences – they are not happening at JPMorgan’s closest peer bank – Citigroup. Both JPMorgan and Citigroup are global financial institutions with both commercial banking and investment banking operations. Their employee counts are similar – 260,000 employees for JPMorgan versus 251,000 for Citigroup.

Both JPMorgan and Citigroup also own massive amounts of bank-owned life insurance (BOLI), a controversial practice that pays the corporation when a current or former employee dies. (In the case of former employees, the banks conduct regular “death sweeps” of public records using former employees’ Social Security numbers to learn if a former employee has died and then submits a request for payment of the death benefit to the insurance company.)

Wall Street On Parade carefully researched public death announcements over the past 12 months which named the decedent as a current or former employee of Citigroup or its commercial banking unit, Citibank. We found no data suggesting Citigroup was experiencing the same rash of deaths of young men in their 30s as JPMorgan Chase. Nor did we discover any press reports of leaps from buildings among Citigroup’s workers.

Given the above set of facts, on March 21 of this year, we wrote to the regulator of national banks, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC), seeking the following information under the Freedom of Information Act (See OCC Response to Wall Street On Parade’s Request for Banker Death Information):

The number of deaths from 2008 through March 21, 2014 on which JPMorgan Chase collected death benefits; the total face amount of BOLI life insurance in force at JPMorgan; the total number of former and current employees of JPMorgan Chase who are insured under these policies; any peer studies showing the same data comparing JPMorgan Chase with Bank of America, Wells Fargo and Citigroup.

The OCC responded politely by letter dated April 18, after first calling a few days earlier to inform us that we would be getting nothing under the sunshine law request. (On Wall Street, sunshine routinely means dark curtain.) The OCC letter advised that documents relevant to our request were being withheld on the basis that they are “privileged or contains trade secrets, or commercial or financial information, furnished in confidence, that relates to the business, personal, or financial affairs of any person,” or relate to “a record contained in or related to an examination.”

The ironic reality is that the documents do not pertain to the personal financial affairs of individuals who have a privacy right. Individuals are not going to receive the proceeds of this life insurance for the most part. In many cases, they do not even know that multi-million dollar policies that pay upon their death have been taken out by their employer or former employer. Equally important, JPMorgan is a publicly traded company whose shareholders have a right under securities laws to understand the quality of its earnings – are those earnings coming from traditional banking and investment banking operations or is this ghoulish practice of profiting from the death of workers now a major contributor to profits on Wall Street?

As it turns out, one aspect of the information cavalierly denied to us by the OCC is publicly available to those willing to hunt for it. On March 24 of this year, we reported that JPMorgan Chase held $10.4 billion in BOLI assets at its insured depository bank as of December 31, 2013.

We reached out to BOLI expert, Michael D. Myers, to understand what JPMorgan’s $10.4 billion in BOLI assets at its commercial bank might represent in terms of face amount of life insurance on its workers. Myers said: “Without knowing the length of the investment or its rate of return, it is difficult to estimate the face amount of the insurance coverage. However, a cash value of $10.4 billion could easily translate into more than $100 billion in actual insurance coverage and possibly two or three times that amount” said Myers, a partner in the Houston, Texas law firm McClanahan Myers Espey, L.L.P.

Myers’ and his firm have represented the families of deceased employees for almost two decades in cases involving corporate-owned life insurance against employers such as Wal-Mart Stores, Inc., Fina Oil and Chemical Co., and American Greetings Corp. (Families may be entitled to the proceeds of these policies if employee consent was required under State law and was never given and/or if the corporation cannot show it had an “insurable interest” in the employee — a tough test to meet if it’s a non key employee or if the employee has left the firm.)

As it turns out, the $10.4 billion significantly understates the amount of money JPMorgan has tied up in seeking to profit from workers’ deaths. Since Wall Street banks are structured as holding companies, we decided to see what type of financial information might be available at the Federal Financial Institutions Examination Council (FFIEC), a federal interagency that promotes uniform reporting standards among banking regulators.

The FFIEC’s web site provided access to the consolidated financial statements of the bank holding companies of not just JPMorgan Chase but all of the largest Wall Street banks. We conducted our own peer review study with the information that was available.

Four of Wall Street’s largest banks hold a total of $68.1 billion in BOLI assets. Using Michael Myers’ approximate 10 to 1 ratio, that would mean that over time, just these four banks could potentially collect upwards of $681 billion in tax free income from life insurance proceeds on their current and former workers. (Death benefits are received tax free as is the buildup in cash value in the policies.) The breakdown in BOLI assets is as follows as of December 31, 2013:

Bank of America $22.7 billion
Wells Fargo 18.7 billion
JPMorgan Chase 17.9 billion
Citigroup 8.8 billion

In addition to specifics on the BOLI assets, the consolidated financial statements also showed what each bank was reporting as “Earnings on/increase in value of cash surrender value of life insurance” as of December 31, 2013. Those amounts are as follows:

Bank of America $625 million
Wells Fargo 566 million
JPMorgan Chase 686 million
Citigroup 0

Given the size of these numbers, there is another aspect to BOLI that should raise alarm bells among both regulators and shareholders. The Wall Street banks are using a process called “separate accounts” for large amounts of their BOLI assets with reports of some funds never actually leaving the bank and/or being invested in hedge funds, suggesting lessons from the past have not been learned.

On May 20, 2008, Bloomberg News reported that Wachovia Corp. (now owned by Wells Fargo) and Fifth Third Bancorp reported major losses on failed gambles with BOLI assets. “Wachovia reported a $315 million first-quarter loss in its bank-owned life insurance program, known as BOLI, because of investments in hedge funds managed by Citigroup Inc. Fifth Third said in a lawsuit filed last month that it had losses of $323 million from Citigroup’s Falcon funds, which slumped more than 50 percent in the past year as the subprime market collapsed.” Citigroup’s Falcon Strategies hedge fund had lost as much as 75 percent of its value by May 2008.

[don]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

catching, isn't it . . . .

Chairman Of China's Largest Copper Producer Commits Suicide By Jumping From Hotel




While news of high-ranking financial executive suicides in the west have become week to week news, the troubling trend has spread to Asia. A string of Chinese officials have killed themselves in recent months, with speculation linking many to a crackdown on graft. However, as SCMP reports, this weekend saw the head of China's largest copper producer 'fell to this death' from a hotel owned by his company with a state-run newspaper claiming the 52-year-old committed suicide (due to work pressures) following corruption allegations. The timing of Wei Jianghong, chairman of state-owned Tongling Nonferrous Metals Group, suicide appears catalyzed by the growing anxiety over the widespread implications of China's rehypothecation commodity-finance scandal. That leaves one question - what did he know that markets remain ignorant of for now?

[don]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

A bank executive from London shot his wife dead before turning the gun on himself.

Julian Knott, 45, an executive director for J P Morgan, shot 47-year-old Alita repeatedly, police said.

The father-of-three was found dead alongside her in their home in Jefferson Township, New Jersey, on Sunday. He had worked in the City for almost 20 years before moving to the US in December 2012.

In a tribute posted online soon after the bodies were found, their daughter Kayleigh said that the couple were: “now stress-free”.

[aaron]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

This is so sad. No wonder the banks insure their employees for so much money (naming themselves as beneficiaries). I would be very careful if I were working for one of these places.

[don]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

Thierry Leyne, Strauss-Kahn’s Hedge-Fund Partner, Dies at 49

By David Henry and Mathieu Rosemain

Thierry Leyne, the French-Israeli entrepreneur who last year started an investment firm with former International Monetary Fund Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn, has died. He was 49.

Leyne died yesterday in Tel Aviv, according to his assistant at the firm, who asked not to be identified. Le Figaro newspaper reported that he committed suicide.

Last year, Leyne joined Strauss-Kahn in establishing the Paris-traded firm Leyne, Strauss-Kahn & Partners after the former IMF head bought a 20 percent stake to help develop the investment-banking franchise of Leyne’s company, Luxembourg-based Anatevka SA. Leyne had taken Anatevka public in March 2013 before joining forces with Strauss-Kahn, commonly referred to in France as DSK.

The new partnership -- usually called LSK & Partners by using both men’s initials -- was part of Strauss-Kahn’s efforts to rebuild his post-IMF life after he was charged in 2011 of criminal sex, attempted rape, sexual abuse, unlawful imprisonment and the forcible touching of a chambermaid at the Sofitel hotel in Manhattan. Strauss-Kahn denied the charges, which were later dropped. He settled the maid’s lawsuit in 2012.

“There is a lot of demand from big groups to benefit from the advice of Mr. Strauss-Kahn,” Leyne told the New York Times last year. They started working together only a few months before agreeing to join forces, it reported.

Lyne was found dead Thursday after apparently taking his own life by jumping off the 23rd floor of one of the Yoo towers, a prestigious residential complex in Tel Aviv. This is the 16th financial services executive death this year.

1 - William Broeksmit, 58-year-old former senior executive at Deutsche Bank AG, was found dead in his home after an apparent suicide in South Kensington in central London, on January 26th.

2 - Karl Slym, 51 year old Tata Motors managing director Karl Slym, was found dead on the fourth floor of the Shangri-La hotel in Bangkok on January 27th.

3 - Gabriel Magee, a 39-year-old JP Morgan employee, died after falling from the roof of the JP Morgan European headquarters in London on January 27th.

4 - Mike Dueker, 50-year-old chief economist of a US investment bank was found dead close to the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in Washington State.

5 - Richard Talley, the 57 year old founder of American Title Services in Centennial, Colorado, was found dead earlier this month after apparently shooting himself with a nail gun.

6 - Tim Dickenson, a U.K.-based communications director at Swiss Re AG, also died last month, however the circumstances surrounding his death are still unknown.

7 - Ryan Henry Crane, a 37 year old executive at JP Morgan died in an alleged suicide just a few weeks ago. No details have been released about his death aside from this small obituary announcement at the Stamford Daily Voice.

8 - Li Junjie, 33-year-old banker in Hong Kong jumped from the JP Morgan HQ in Hong Kong this week.

9 - James Stuart Jr, Former National Bank of Commerce CEO, found dead in Scottsdale, Ariz., the morning of Feb. 19. A family spokesman did not say whatcaused the death

10 - Edmund (Eddie) Reilly, 47, a trader at Midtown’s Vertical Group, commited suicide by jumping in front of LIRR train

11 - Kenneth Bellando, 28, a trader at Levy Capital, formerly investment banking analyst at JPMorgan, jumped to his death from his 6th floor East Side apartment.

12 - Jan Peter Schmittmann, 57, the former CEO of Dutch bank ABN Amro found dead at home near Amsterdam with wife and daughter.

13 - Li Jianhua, 49, the director of China's Banking Regulatory Commission died of a sudden heart attack

14 - Lydia _____, 52 - jumped to her suicide from the 14th floor of Bred-Banque Populaire in Paris

15 - Julian Knott, 45 - killed wife and self with a shotgun in Jefferson Township, New Jersey

16 - Thierry Leyne, 48 - jumped from 23rd floor apartment in Tel Aviv.

[GRG55]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

Thierry Leyne, Strauss-Kahn’s Hedge-Fund Partner, Dies at 49

By David Henry and Mathieu Rosemain

Thierry Leyne, the French-Israeli entrepreneur who last year started an investment firm with former International Monetary Fund Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn, has died. He was 49.

Leyne died yesterday in Tel Aviv, according to his assistant at the firm, who asked not to be identified. Le Figaro newspaper reported that he committed suicide.

Last year, Leyne joined Strauss-Kahn in establishing the Paris-traded firm Leyne, Strauss-Kahn & Partners after the former IMF head bought a 20 percent stake to help develop the investment-banking franchise of Leyne’s company, Luxembourg-based Anatevka SA. Leyne had taken Anatevka public in March 2013 before joining forces with Strauss-Kahn, commonly referred to in France as DSK.

The new partnership -- usually called LSK & Partners by using both men’s initials -- was part of Strauss-Kahn’s efforts to rebuild his post-IMF life after he was charged in 2011 of criminal sex, attempted rape, sexual abuse, unlawful imprisonment and the forcible touching of a chambermaid at the Sofitel hotel in Manhattan. Strauss-Kahn denied the charges, which were later dropped. He settled the maid’s lawsuit in 2012.

“There is a lot of demand from big groups to benefit from the advice of Mr. Strauss-Kahn,” Leyne told the New York Times last year. They started working together only a few months before agreeing to join forces, it reported.

Lyne was found dead Thursday after apparently taking his own life by jumping off the 23rd floor of one of the Yoo towers, a prestigious residential complex in Tel Aviv. This is the 16th financial services executive death this year.

1 - William Broeksmit, 58-year-old former senior executive at Deutsche Bank AG, was found dead in his home after an apparent suicide in South Kensington in central London, on January 26th.

2 - Karl Slym, 51 year old Tata Motors managing director Karl Slym, was found dead on the fourth floor of the Shangri-La hotel in Bangkok on January 27th.

3 - Gabriel Magee, a 39-year-old JP Morgan employee, died after falling from the roof of the JP Morgan European headquarters in London on January 27th.

4 - Mike Dueker, 50-year-old chief economist of a US investment bank was found dead close to the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in Washington State.

5 - Richard Talley, the 57 year old founder of American Title Services in Centennial, Colorado, was found dead earlier this month after apparently shooting himself with a nail gun.

6 - Tim Dickenson, a U.K.-based communications director at Swiss Re AG, also died last month, however the circumstances surrounding his death are still unknown.

7 - Ryan Henry Crane, a 37 year old executive at JP Morgan died in an alleged suicide just a few weeks ago. No details have been released about his death aside from this small obituary announcement at the Stamford Daily Voice.

8 - Li Junjie, 33-year-old banker in Hong Kong jumped from the JP Morgan HQ in Hong Kong this week.

9 - James Stuart Jr, Former National Bank of Commerce CEO, found dead in Scottsdale, Ariz., the morning of Feb. 19. A family spokesman did not say whatcaused the death

10 - Edmund (Eddie) Reilly, 47, a trader at Midtown’s Vertical Group, commited suicide by jumping in front of LIRR train

11 - Kenneth Bellando, 28, a trader at Levy Capital, formerly investment banking analyst at JPMorgan, jumped to his death from his 6th floor East Side apartment.

12 - Jan Peter Schmittmann, 57, the former CEO of Dutch bank ABN Amro found dead at home near Amsterdam with wife and daughter.

13 - Li Jianhua, 49, the director of China's Banking Regulatory Commission died of a sudden heart attack

14 - Lydia _____, 52 - jumped to her suicide from the 14th floor of Bred-Banque Populaire in Paris

15 - Julian Knott, 45 - killed wife and self with a shotgun in Jefferson Township, New Jersey

16 - Thierry Leyne, 48 - jumped from 23rd floor apartment in Tel Aviv.

So does anybody know if this, as a percentage of the total population of "financial services executives" worldwide, is abnormal compared with the other cohorts such as the population at large?

[Fiat Currency]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

So does anybody know if this, as a percentage of the total population of "financial services executives" worldwide, is abnormal compared with the other cohorts such as the population at large?

Well, in 2011, globally - they already made #5 in this list of top 19 jobs by suicide rate.

2011 was not particularly stressful for FIRE executives.

I hope, once again, these sociopaths strive to be #1.

[don]

Re: Four banker suicides within a week - A sign, or mere coincidence?

Following a brief late summer spell in which there was little if any news of bankers taking their lives, as reported previously, the banker suicides returned with a bang when none other than the hedge fund partner of infamous former IMF head Dominique Strauss-Khan, Thierry Leyne, a French-Israeli entrepreneur, was found dead after jumping off the 23rd floor of one of the Yoo towers, a prestigious residential complex in Tel Aviv.

Just a few brief hours later the WSJ reported that yet another Deutsche Bank veteran has committed suicide, and not just anyone but the bank's associate general counsel, 41 year old Calogero "Charlie" Gambino.

Deutsche Bank Lawyer Found Dead in New York in Suicide

Calogero Gambino Had Been Closely Involved in Negotiating Legal Issues for Deutsche Bank

By DAVID ENRICH,
JENNY STRASBURG and
PERVAIZ SHALLWANI

A senior Deutsche Bank AG regulatory lawyer, Calogero Gambino, has died of a suicide in New York, according to New York City officials and others familiar with the circumstances of his death.

Mr. Gambino, 41 years old, was an associate general counsel, a managing director and an 11-year veteran of the German bank. He was found on the morning of Oct. 20 hanging by the neck from a stairway banister, the New York Police Department said. The man, who was found by his wife, was pronounced dead by medics, and the death is being...

WSJ

The WSJ also reported that Mr. Gambino had been "closely involved in negotiating legal issues for Deutsche Bank, including the prolonged probe into manipulation of the London interbank offered rate, or Libor, and ongoing investigations into manipulation of currencies markets, according to people familiar with his role at the bank."

As a reminder, the other Deutsche Bank-er who was found dead earlier in the year, William Broeksmit, was involved in the bank's risk function and advised the firm's senior leadership; he was "anxious about various authorities investigating areas of the bank where he worked," according to written evidence from his psychologist, given Tuesday at an inquest at London's Royal Courts of Justice. And now that an almost identical suicide by hanging has taken place at Europe's most systemically important bank, and by a person who worked in a nearly identical function - to shield the bank from regulators and prosecutors and cover up its allegedly illegal activities with settlements and fines - is surely bound to raise questions.