Tiger Mom is Back

[vt]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

Haft family from D.C.; $1 billion dollar family fortune erodes down to $50 million because of family feud:

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/29/us/in-feud-over-retail-empire-family-splits-in-public-view.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Sep2.html

[Woodsman]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

You're probably right that if you were given an attitude or told you were not welcome this has a lot to do with insecurity. This type of behavior is typical of a group or class of people that is insecure within their environment.

Certainly that's possible. Only these folks own a relatively successful and rather upscale place and the parking lot is filled with German luxury cars. Three quarters of a mile away is the country club community where they play a senior PGA game every year and the smallest homes start at $800K. Across the street there is a more modest community where many professional athletes like to call home and it's quite nice, if somewhat less stately than the CC. Closer to my home, there are similarly priced communities as the CC, only lacking the golf course. There are many, many Korean and Chinese people at each of them, and the community across the street from our high school is about 40% Asian as are the demographics of the school. Nearby there's a large shopping mall, entertainment and grocer complex that - save for the Latin American workmen - is fully staffed and frequented by Asian people and also numerous shops and restaurants with Hangul and Mandarin Chinese characters prominently displayed on the marquees.

While I don't dispute the truth of what you say, whatever insecurity these folks experience it is most definitely not based on economic deprivation or social isolation.

But my point is that you are misguided when you are attributing this group to only asians specifically chinese or koreans. No doubt asians make shitty neighbors and horrible drivers but to expect to feel the love at a low class drinking establishment that may be primarily dominated by a specific group of people or crew is ridiculous. Do you roll into every biker bar you see and expected to be given love just because you are riding?

JR, I'm not sure where it is you read where I attribute anything to an entire group exclusively or that the establishment I visited was "low class." Respectfully, I did not attribute anything exclusively to Asian people and I'll ask that you take a closer reading of my post so we're clear on that. The establishment itself was far from low class, as I mention above. If anything, they seemed to be trying a bit to hard to impress.

Now that's not to say I don't enjoy spending a few moments at places you'd probably consider low class, JR. I've stepped into a biker bar named "Teats" wearing a Brooks Brothers suit and felt no hostility as I drank my PBR and Jack chaser. I've sat down at a suburban diner next to soccer moms wearing leathers and engineer boots and felt no discomfort as I ate my burger. And in my go go days, I've had lunch at the Hay Adams and dinner at (the dearly departed) Windows on The World, too, but nowhere else did I experience the sort of treatment I did just a few moments drive from my home. That sort of stuff gets my attention and makes a lasting impression on me. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong and I certainly don't need to feel the love everywhere I go. But I can do without the hate and hostility.

Going back to the original point of the posts, the tiger mom thing is bullcrap - shock & awe is a marketing strategy.

As I said first off, so we agree.

But the reality is that immigrants with cultural backgrounds heavily focused on education do tend to become more successful - because it's a cultural thing! Funny enough at my business the guys that are working late and making bigger bonuses are almost always the guys from 1st or 2nd generation (I typically only hire younger people that fit our culture) immigrant families whether asian, mexican, or easter european. I contrast this to kids that work here that grew up in beach cities, coddled by their parents that might be insanely smart but almost always much lazier and really only looking to work that 8 hour shift and leave 5pm on the dot.

The kids that grew up in beach cities, coddled by loving parents are very likely the third or fourth generation of German, Italian, Irish, Norwegian, Central European Jews, Slavs and other nationalities that filled the immigrant quotas back when they were determined by national origin and race. No doubt they received their fair share of hate and discrimination and that natives looked at them with fear and suspicion, attributing every sort of negative quality to them. No doubt they worked harder than any native by necessity and that some employers like you saw fit to capitalize on that. Would you agree that the work ethic probably had as much to do with the swim or sink nature of society than any innate cultural advantage? Fear of hunger and homelessness does much to motivate people and remember that most of these folks came here to "make their fortune" so they were sort of primed for hard work.

And while I appreciate your need for obedient and productive workers, is it wise to expect a generation raised in affluence to exhibit the same degree of drive as did their grandparents fresh off the boat? Do immigrants rising from poverty and deprivation say to themselves, "when I have children they are going to have it worse than I did and work twice as hard;" or, is it just the opposite?

Up until just recently thanks to FIRE, each subsequent generation was better off than the previous, experienced less pain and discomfort than the last, and enjoyed more affluence. Therefore, each generation seems "softer" in comparison to the previous. Somehow this used to be considered a feature of the American system, only now it's a bug - another of the many clever bait and switch routines we must endure, I suppose.

I wonder how long it will take before the Asians and Eastern Europeans of the sort you like to hire will beget a generation of lazy Americans. Not long, I expect. In time even the Italians and Irish became "white" and it's only a matter of time before it happens to our latest cohort of immigrants. They will become cultural Americans despite their parent's best efforts.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

The only cultural issue at play here is the fact that asian people tend to have more family members involved in the business. Family members fighting due to greed has been occurring since the first caveman took the largest piece of meat from his father because he could. To blame chinese or korean culture for that is so plain ignorant.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/20/bu...mily-feud.html

I don't believe it is ignorant at all, perhaps your statement toward me but not that. The reality is some things do have correlation/causation and it is cultural/ethnic etc.

These stereotypes don't just appear out of thin air..... usually due to observation over many centuries/human timelines. Culture is handed down over generations that is a simple fact.

Of course it occurs in many cultures/families all I am saying is it seems to be more prevalent in Chinese culture as eating Century eggs in China is.

For something to be more prevalent in a culture doesnt mean that the majority have to participate in it just more people on average compared to another culture.

People have two minds, one that they chose to reveal to the world and people and the other they kept close to their vest and do not reveal only in selected company.

[jr429]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

Certainly that's possible. Only these folks own a relatively successful and rather upscale place and the parking lot is filled with German luxury cars. Three quarters of a mile away is the country club community where they play a senior PGA game every year and the smallest homes start at $800K. Across the street there is a more modest community where many professional athletes like to call home and it's quite nice, if somewhat less stately than the CC.

There's only a few places in the country that would fit your location description. And based on that description there certainly has to be misunderstanding. I cannot possibly conceive how you could have ran into "hatred so palpable I could cut off a slice and take home a piece" by simply stepping into an upscale establishment NOT run by a local crew or frequented by young 20 something kids that have nothing better to do then get into a scrap. Back in my younger and stupider days I've certainly been into those types of establishments, the ones where nights have ended with bottles and knives being thrown at each other, where guns get pulled and cars shot up - but that's not a race thing, it's certainly not an asian thing - it's just some places attract a bad crowd and bad $h!t happens. And that's why I don't go to those types of places anymore. Reminds me of Dennys where I used to live in the east bay - past 10pm on weekends there was guaranteed to be a fight there whether its asians, blacks, hispanics, etc. Can you offer some more insight as to why you felt so much hate and why you think catalyst is race / culture?

JR, I'm not sure where it is you read where I attribute anything to an entire group exclusively or that the establishment I visited was "low class." Respectfully, I did not attribute anything exclusively to Asian people and I'll ask that you take a closer reading of my post so we're clear on that. The establishment itself was far from low class, as I mention above. If anything, they seemed to be trying a bit to hard to impress.

Now that's not to say I don't enjoy spending a few moments at places you'd probably consider low class, JR. I've stepped into a biker bar named "Teats" wearing a Brooks Brothers suit and felt no hostility as I drank my PBR and Jack chaser. I've sat down at a suburban diner next to soccer moms wearing leathers and engineer boots and felt no discomfort as I ate my burger. And in my go go days, I've had lunch at the Hay Adams and dinner at (the dearly departed) Windows on The World, too, but nowhere else did I experience the sort of treatment I did just a few moments drive from my home. That sort of stuff gets my attention and makes a lasting impression on me. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong and I certainly don't need to feel the love everywhere I go. But I can do without the hate and hostility.

I guess I mis-spoke by saying "low class". I think anywhere you go with drunken young people there's always the potential for trouble to brew. That's why they have bouncers at clubs. And typically if you're talking Korean tavern I'm guessing there were a lot of young kids?

The kids that grew up in beach cities, coddled by loving parents are very likely the third or fourth generation of German, Italian, Irish, Norwegian, Central European Jews, Slavs and other nationalities that filled the immigrant quotas back when they were determined by national origin and race. No doubt they received their fair share of hate and discrimination and that natives looked at them with fear and suspicion, attributing every sort of negative quality to them. No doubt they worked harder than any native by necessity and that some employers like you saw fit to capitalize on that. Would you agree that the work ethic probably had as much to do with the swim or sink nature of society than any innate cultural advantage? Fear of hunger and homelessness does much to motivate people and remember that most of these folks came here to "make their fortune" so they were sort of primed for hard work.

And while I appreciate your need for obedient and productive workers, is it wise to expect a generation raised in affluence to exhibit the same degree of drive as did their grandparents fresh off the boat? Do immigrants rising from poverty and deprivation say to themselves, "when I have children they are going to have it worse than I did and work twice as hard;" or, is it just the opposite?

Up until just recently thanks to FIRE, each subsequent generation was better off than the previous, experienced less pain and discomfort than the last, and enjoyed more affluence. Therefore, each generation seems "softer" in comparison to the previous. Somehow this used to be considered a feature of the American system, only now it's a bug - another of the many clever bait and switch routines we must endure, I suppose.

I wonder how long it will take before the Asians and Eastern Europeans of the sort you like to hire will beget a generation of lazy Americans. Not long, I expect. In time even the Italians and Irish became "white" and it's only a matter of time before it happens to our latest cohort of immigrants. They will become cultural Americans despite their parent's best efforts.

I absolutely agree afterall we're talking about culture here not race. A lot of the immigrant in their 60/70's I know (typically friends parents etc) suffered tremendously in their youth basically third world stuff most cannot imagine. And that is one of the primary catalysts for hard-work. After 3 or 4 generations a lot have forgotten their roots as it's certainly easier to surf and smoke weed all day then it is to put in hard work. But this is where certain groups like the Jews excel. Their culture has been so persecuted over the centuries that they have adopted strategies to ensure retention of the culture - including educating and caring for their children. This is why a lot of jews are so successful.

[don]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

In time even the Italians and Irish became "white"

The Wizards of Imperial Rule, the Brits, coined "White" to differentiate the Irish, while they raped and pillaged the country. Helped to justify their colonizing actions as it was only against an "other".

It took until mid-century for the Italians to reach white-hood. A friend of mine, as a kid in Chicago, overheard two Polish (oops, almost said Polacks) guys talking the morning after Rocky Marciano won the title from Jersey Joe Walcott (keep in mind that Joe Louis was loved. Ezzard Charles and Walcott made 3 straight black heavyweight champions in a row. Things were starting to chaff a bit . . .) that "at least a white guy won." Answered by, "white? He's Italian."

Hey, I got great tickets to that fight. I Jewed the scalper down!

Wonder where that came from . . . .

[jr429]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

I don't believe it is ignorant at all, perhaps your statement toward me but not that. The reality is some things do have correlation/causation and it is cultural/ethnic etc.

These stereotypes don't just appear out of thin air..... usually due to observation over many centuries/human timelines. Culture is handed down over generations that is a simple fact.

Of course it occurs in many cultures/families all I am saying is it seems to be more prevalent in Chinese culture as eating Century eggs in China is.

For something to be more prevalent in a culture doesnt mean that the majority have to participate in it just more people on average compared to another culture.

People have two minds, one that they chose to reveal to the world and people and the other they kept close to their vest and do not reveal only in selected company.

You're drawing too much from your personal experience. I would imagine your personal experience doesn't draw from other EMERGING MARKET such as S. America, Eastern Europe, etc. where far crazier stuff happens all the time. You probably have a China / Asia bias due to your personal network including your girlfriend so you don't hear about the crazy stuff that happens anywhere else. A funny story my uncle purchased a few pallets from some italians of what he thought was good wine from Italy turned out to be wine bottles with rubbing alcohol.

[Woodsman]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

There's only a few places in the country that would fit your location description. And based on that description there certainly has to be misunderstanding. I cannot possibly conceive how you could have ran into "hatred so palpable ... Can you offer some more insight as to why you felt so much hate and why you think catalyst is race / culture?

I was the only white person there. The place went more or less silent when I entered. No one would acknowledge my presence until I basically had to corner the bartender to take my order. I've been to busy places and had to wait what seemed like an eternity for service, so waiting is not unusual. Only that night there were no more than a dozen folks around. The only young people were the ladies that seemed to work there, but it was hard to tell as they were mostly sitting around and talking. Mostly the patrons were older gentlemen of the 50+ variety.

I don't believe there was a misunderstanding. Heck, so few words were spoken I'm at a loss to know what might have been misunderstood. All I know is my drink was delivered with overt hostility and it was clear by the vibe that I wasn't welcome. No attempt at cordiality or conviviality was accepted, nevermind reciprocated. Finally, a younger thirty something type told me the score. He seemed slightly embarrassed about it but was not enough to go against his crew.

It's for these reasons that I believe there was some racial/cultural motivations, but I can never really know. It was a while ago and I haven't been back. Thinking back, it's been rumored that the place is what is known as a "room salon" so maybe they didn't wan't the cat to get out of the bag or share the goods with an outsider. Come to think of it, for all the dour looking old guys in the room, there were plenty of attractive looking young women there.

Doesn't matter, really. And talking about this stuff so easily ruffles feathers, so I'm regretting bringing up the experience now.

[jr429]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

I was the only white person there. The place went more or less silent when I entered. No one would acknowledge my presence until I basically had to corner the bartender to take my order. I've been to busy places and had to wait what seemed like an eternity for service, so waiting is not unusual. Only that night there were no more than a dozen folks around. The only young people were the ladies that seemed to work there, but it was hard to tell as they were mostly sitting around and talking. Mostly the patrons were older gentlemen of the 50+ variety.

I don't believe there was a misunderstanding. Heck, so few words were spoken I'm at a loss to know what might have been misunderstood. All I know is my drink was delivered with overt hostility and it was clear by the vibe that I wasn't welcome. No attempt at cordiality or conviviality was accepted, nevermind reciprocated. Finally, a younger thirty something type told me the score. He seemed slightly embarrassed about it but was not enough to go against his crew.

It's for these reasons that I believe there was some racial/cultural motivations, but I can never really know. It was a while ago and I haven't been back. Thinking back, it's been rumored that the place is what is known as a "room salon" so maybe they didn't wan't the cat to get out of the bag or share the goods with an outsider. Come to think of it, for all the dour looking old guys in the room, there were plenty of attractive looking young women there.

Doesn't matter, really. And talking about this stuff so easily ruffles feathers, so I'm regretting bringing up the experience now.

Haha there you go. I knew there was something there. Room salons here in the states, unlike in asia, are typically fronts for a variety of different illicit businesses and honestly there are very few korean ones here in the US. You usually don't go to these types of places without an invite. I know an italian guy that co-owns a few of these establishments and usually these types of places (depending on how it's managed) is exactly a hang out for a local crew, etc. This definitely wasn't about race - it was about who you know or don't know. Don't feel so bad

[lektrode]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

The Wizards of Imperial Rule, the Brits, coined "White" to differentiate the Irish, while they raped and pillaged the country. Helped to justify their colonizing actions as it was only against an "other".

It took until mid-century for the Italians to reach white-hood. A friend of mine, as a kid in Chicago, overheard two Polish (oops, almost said Polacks) guys talking the morning after Rocky Marciano won the title from Jersey Joe Walcott (keep in mind that Joe Louis was loved. Ezzard Charles and Walcott made 3 straight black heavyweight champions in a row. Things were starting to chaff a bit . . .) that "at least a white guy won." Answered by, "white? He's Italian."

Hey, I got great tickets to that fight. I Jewed the scalper down!

Wonder where that came from . . . .

heheheh...
the term is a badge of honor among those so endowed - as i've been... uhhh... enlightened by my so endowed other 1/2 -

she's awarded me the honorary title...

gotta love the historical/cultural discussions around this place, eh mr don?

over on the 'inequality' thread we've just learned the pope is a marxist (where santafe had the best one-liner of the year so far with his reply to thailandnotes that he "...thot he was catholic and oughta start watching the news..." ;)

and yer top line above is why i always get a kick out of the lectures on 'racism' from some (tho i'll hold back using the term WASP) - when it was the ancestors of our so-called bluebloods that profited by turning it into an industry and brought it with them to the new world, while The Rest of US are still paying the price of their guilt(trip)

but what do i know - i'm just a dumb haole anyway

[don]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

Thanks, Lek, from a fellow haole boy . . . .

[Woodsman]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

Haha there you go. I knew there was something there. Room salons here in the states, unlike in asia, are typically fronts for a variety of different illicit businesses and honestly there are very few korean ones here in the US. You usually don't go to these types of places without an invite. I know an italian guy that co-owns a few of these establishments and usually these types of places (depending on how it's managed) is exactly a hang out for a local crew, etc. This definitely wasn't about race - it was about who you know or don't know. Don't feel so bad

Sounds reasonable.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

You're drawing too much from your personal experience. I would imagine your personal experience doesn't draw from other EMERGING MARKET such as S. America, Eastern Europe, etc. where far crazier stuff happens all the time. You probably have a China / Asia bias due to your personal network including your girlfriend so you don't hear about the crazy stuff that happens anywhere else. A funny story my uncle purchased a few pallets from some italians of what he thought was good wine from Italy turned out to be wine bottles with rubbing alcohol.

(Sorry I do not want this to become too much of an emotional issue, it is not for me I can debate culture/ethnicity without getting emotional)

Of course the Italian stories (insert whatever group) happen all the time. Not trying to be biased, I actually have tons of experience in South America, speak Spanish and Portuguese, study abroad in Peru and traveled to Brasil 4 times.

I have few American friends, most being foreign from all over. I haven't dated an American woman since I was 16 and when I go out, I don't head to the nearest bar in the yuppy area but to the local Middle Eastern club where all my friends are immigrants from Lebanon/Iran/Morocco/Iraq/Saudi Arabia/Eastern Europe etc.

I would say I have more experience with other cultures/ethnicities than 99% of Americans. A citizen of the world not of simply the U.S.

None of what I say is out of malice or ignorance but self study/observation/reading for the better part of 16 years.

I was standing in Rio de Janeiro one time waiting for a bus outside of the mall when I heard a lady speaking in English behind me. Because I recognized her accent as she was not American but speaking English in Brasil, I turned around walked up to her and started speaking Farsi to introduce myself.

She was Persian, I knew simply from her accent that she was because all Persian women have almost identical accents when they grow up in Iran and move to the US to learn English. Now I am not saying that some do not learn to speak without an accent, many do.

Or for example when there is a crowd of 100 people I can pick out the single Ethiopian (sometimes Somali or Eritrean) in the entire room because they have such a unique looking phenotype.

Or how most of the time (not always of course) I can tell the difference between a Chinese, Korean and Japanese person by the subtle differences in their phenotypes which are created by thousands to hundreds of years of population/genetic mixing with the same people.

[wayiwalk]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

I recently learned from a mentor of mine at work of cultural differences amongst chinese that don’t fit in with the framework described in this discussion and were really an eye opener for me.

She’s from Tawain – came here with little to her name but through extreme focus – getting a Phd in a science discipline and maintaining her work to the highest standards, has managed much success. She notes that the chinese in the US from mainland China can exhibit a tendency to be dishonest and a race to earning the next dollar such that she clearly differentiates between her china and mainland china. Actually, she wasn’t quite that generous in her assessment – those are my words. I suggested that the cultural revolution went a long way to eliminating much of the centuries old value system that was a large part of the Chinese culture pre-Mao, and she agreed.

So that is just an anecdotal point to consider when using anecdotal stories from ethnic chinese in this discussion. I wonder what other’s thoughts are on this. Also - maybe in BUSINESS, it is very hard to accomplish success in business and sharing in business without the basic nature of humans (some) to corrupt things.

Regarding the point about immigrants working hard and their progeny slacking off, I think that is a well-established fact, but it is also just a general rule of thumb, there are plenty of stories of immigrants coming here just to find work and work hard at it, but otherwise pursuing nothing extraordinary. Things are so much better in this country that you can (could/can’t anymore?) just do the 9 to 5 and live a much much better life in this country than the one you came from. My mother in law immigrated here from Europe but she was well educated from a 1^st world country; she worked a gov’t job here and had a nice life/living, but she didn’t strive to achieve more…..and she definitely knew hardship growing up in Europe in the 40’s. Her path may have been driven by her gender and what was more common for women to achieve in their careers in those days.

For me, keeping my kids from slacking off without being a tiger-pr!ck is a full time job, but as a 3^rd/7^th generation (depending on which side of the family) American, I realize that it is critical to keep the fire burning in their hearts. But it also gets to the kind of adults I’d like them to be. My oldest son watched the tiger mom raised children in our high school and definitely knew he did not want to spend 4 years of college amongst people like that (high stressed, only study, limited socializing, and generally, dull, no fun to be around). Dull has several meanings and they apply well to many (not all) tiger cubs. He studies hard, but also socializes (okay, parties) and is active in intramural sports. Balance!

Another interesting point about immigrants, and this has been true for a long time in this country, is that plenty of people immigrate to this country, decide it is not for them, and go back to the old country. I had relatives who immigrated here in the early 1900’s but later returned to Belarus because they did not like it here.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

I recently learned from a mentor of mine at work of cultural differences amongst chinese that don’t fit in with the framework described in this discussion and were really an eye opener for me.

She’s from Tawain – came here with little to her name but through extreme focus – getting a Phd in a science discipline and maintaining her work to the highest standards, has managed much success. She notes that the chinese in the US from mainland China can exhibit a tendency to be dishonest and a race to earning the next dollar such that she clearly differentiates between her china and mainland china. Actually, she wasn’t quite that generous in her assessment – those are my words. I suggested that the cultural revolution went a long way to eliminating much of the centuries old value system that was a large part of the Chinese culture pre-Mao, and she agreed.

Yes, the Chinese that left China pre-Mao really distinguish their culture/character from the mainland Chinese. The Chinese in Singapore say "they are not like the mainland Chinese" for example. The same can be said of the Taiwanese.

Even within China, the coastal Chinese see themselves as better compared to the "inland Chinese." I have always been told that if you want to experience real racism go to Asia. There is a reason the translation of China is "central or center country" Zhōngguó. Although many "peoples" saw themselves as the center.

It is interesting the way the mainland Chinese think compared to the Chinese diaspora. I have a mainland Chinese friend who remarked "the Chinese food in Hong Kong is not good." Now most people would say the Chinese food in Hong Kong is the best in the world, but as that is coastal Chinese food and heavily influenced by both the West and Chinese diaspora people mainlanders don't consider it good.

In my experience most mainland Chinese food is not very good.

[lektrode]

Re: Tiger Mom is Back

heh - if one wants to 'experience real racism' - there's much closer destinations, where ya dont even need to change your money - tho there is a bit of a haircut on the way in, but at least the flagship airline still serves free meals - and there's LOTS of bars like the one woody mentions (we call em BMDB's or 'buy me drinky bars', ya can always tell em from the more common watering holes - from the brand-spankin new(typically leased) MB parked out back - tween them and the.. ummmm... lapdance joints - there's quite a few MB's parked outback