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Secret information: The currency of power
By Lars Schall
The transcript of the following interview was exclusively arranged for Asia Times Online. An audio file of the interview is published at the German financial web site "Die Metallwoche" here.
Thomas Drake, born 1957, is a former senior executive at the US National Security Agency who blew the whistle on a multi-billion dollar program fraud and cover up as well as the NSA's secret unlawful surveillance program. The US Department of Justice prosecuted and indicted him under the World War I-era Espionage Act in April, 2010, under 10 felony counts including that he "mishandled documents". The case against him ultimately collapsed. He eventually pled to one misdemeanor count for exceeding authorized use of a computer. He is a former airborne crypto-linguist and electronic warfare mission crew supervisor. From 1991-1998 he worked at Booz Allen Hamilton as a management, strategy and technology consultant and software quality engineer. In 2011, Drake became the recipient of the Ridenhour Truth-Telling Prize and co-recipient of the Sam Adams Award. He holds a Bachelor's and two Master's degrees as well as numerous graduate certificates.
(a lengthy interview, the following are extracts)
The United States has invested, and when I say invested it's in quotes, but it has spent literally trillions of dollars, when you sum up the totals over the last 12 years, related to national defense, national security, intelligence, homeland security. It's just an extraordinary redistribution of US treasury and wealth to "deal with an existential threat". Because it spent so much money it becomes a significant flywheel. You're not going to be able to stop it very easily, and it continues to justify itself by saying we have to have America secure and we have to keep people feeling safe.
LS: I have a couple of questions regarding the use of legendary software PROMIS [Prosecutor's Management Information System], which was developed by my friend William A Hamilton, the founder of the US information technology company Inslaw Inc, and he was also a programer for NSA. Do you know anything about NSA's use of unauthorized copyright infringing copies of Inslaw's PROMIS software for at least 25 years as the software it sold to banks in support of its "follow the money" SIGINT mission?
TD: I don't have any specific knowledge of it. I am certainly aware of the program. I was not part of it. I have heard about it and am aware, had become aware of it over the years, and ... I've had people who've had the history of that program who have actually contacted me over the last couple of years. Unfortunately, it is an example - though I don't have, I can't validate or verify it - not any of the allegations or assertions, any of the history that's been revealed and disclosed regarding PROMIS, none of it surprises me and here's why. It's unfortunate but it is, and I had the direct experience at NSA that NSA would either abscond with or would cast aside really powerful technology and then use it for their own purposes.
I'll give you the example that I'm intimately familiar with, that was ThinThread, the extraordinary program in which I was the executive program manager during late 2001 and 2002 before it met a summary death at the hands of NSA leadership and placed in the Indiana Jones digital warehouse never to be seen again, in direct violation of congressional legislation signed into law to deploy ThinThread to the 18 most critical counter-terrorism sites.
Well, there's one part of ThinThread that was actually used by the secret surveillance program called Stellar Wind, the very program that I blew the whistle on - they abused that program to by-pass the Fourth Amendment and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. There were many crypto-mathematician brains behind the algorithms of ThinThread and this one particular sub-program. He's actually apologized to the nation for it because he never intended that it be used in like manner. They stripped all of the protections off of it.
This pattern is unfortunate. You also have a pattern where large companies will do everything they can to ... let's say they have a company working for them, a sub-contractor. It will actually take intellectual property and then will re-package it for their own use and sell it to the government or in partnership with the government, so none of this surprises me. I just can't speak directly to the specifics of PROMIS, but I'm certainly well aware of program and what NSA did with it.
LS: Understood, but I would like to ask you, nevertheless one more question related to this. This would be, once NSA controlled the software used by banks to process wire transfers or money and letters of credit it could in theory add, delete and/or modify the amounts of funds in accounts because the funds are just data like any other kind of data. Have you ever heard that NSA or other intelligence agency exploited the banks surveillance version of PROMIS towards such an end?
TD: I've certainly heard of it, I just don't have any proof nor can I verify or validate, but I will tell you one of the aspects that has not been fully disclosed although I blew the whistle on it early on when I, within the system, had gone to key people within the government particularly congressional intelligence committees regarding Stellar Wind. One of the things that Stellar Wind did was actually without, again, without warrants, was gain direct access to financial transaction information at the bank level, credit card level, and this is extraordinary - these secret agreements were put into place regarding the flow of money.
This is shrouded in all kinds of secrecy ... but I was well aware what would that mean if there were those within the system who chose to abuse it, you know far beyond the purpose of tracking money laundering and things of that nature because this is all hidden; ... the life blood of any economy is the money, the money flows, the money deposits, the investments. I can't speak specifically to the allegations or assertions that you mentioned, but I can tell you that I would not be surprised at all that it was used in that manner given my knowledge of other abuses of information and systems that people in secret would use or have access to.
The temptations are enormous. I come back to the fundamentals of the human condition, and temptations are enormous when you have that kind … You hear about all of these lower level stuff. We hear about contract fraud. A lot of that is all nickel and dime stuff. People just trying to rip-off the government by charging, you know $6 or something that only cost 50 cents to make.
Even beyond the contract agreements, you know this, the padding their expense accounts. Even on the part of government employees, you know there are clearly the case of people who will try to get away with things, but you're talking in a more systemic level - but I can't, again, I just want to be clear with you here and the audience, I don't have any specific knowledge regarding the use of the PROMIS software for those purposes in terms of manipulating accounts.
LS: But do you think that intelligence information is also used by big players for insider trading, respectively informed trading?
TD: Well, see, now you're asking what I think is actually the more sensitive question, the more relevant question. Okay, information is power; it's the currency of power far more now than ever. It's always really been that way, it's just the technology greatly facilitates this?
LS: Hasn't John Negroponte said that data is worth more than money?
TD: Yes, precisely because I can convert it. In fact data is actually much more - you know they talk about money being fungible because you can convert it into so many different things, but what's behind that? How do you manage and exercise the fungibility. How do you optimize its fungibility-ness to say it that way. It's fungibleness, okay to make up a word. That's the information, that's data, and if you have access in secret to this type of information this gives you enormous leverage in the marketplace, for example.
It's extraordinary. Just look at the manipulation from just what's been disclosed publicly in terms of Wall Street and over, all over the largest of them we have yet to see anybody actually go to prison at the highest levels. Enormous - you know, it's the whole argument about banks being too big to fail; you know we're seeing incredible amounts of money - the Fed alone with its QE [quantitative easing]. It's pumping massive amounts of money. It's not actually helping the economy as much as it's basically compensating for all the bank losses.
Look at the stock market, I mean this is institutional manipulation at the highest levels of government in collusion with the levers of financial power. It's an extraordinary power and it definitely becomes normalized and institutionalized, a lot of other things, and if you're at the top of the pile, guess what - the pay-offs are enormous.
LS: Yes, and if you have that insider information and, on the other side, you have all that cheap money, you can leverage your bet and it's a safe bet.
TD: Yes, it's a safe bet precisely. I mean, that was part of the joke when the insiders in terms of Wall Street is that, you know, the full faith in credit of the United States was there to prop them up if it all failed. I just find it, I mean, it's like "wow". And ultimately who pays the price? I mean ultimately, in the end, who pays the price? A lot of this was paid by money, but the thing is ultimately there have to be real assets behind it, and when the assets themselves are now being leveraged to the hilt what are you left with? I mean that's, now you don't even have a real economy. It all becomes kind of this virtual thing and the number of people - this has been the 1% as it were. What, to whom, does this benefit go? I always follow the money, who does it benefit?
LS: And towards what end is it used? You talked about power and money, so I think it has to express somehow even though we don't know how it does.
TD: Well, you see the large contours of it already. The effects do show up in the economy. The effects do show up in the impact on just the everyday financial flows. The enormous transactions that course within and between nations and around the globe. This has been the reality of human history - trade within and amongst people - and when you sit at the crossroads, the nexus of this, it's an enormous temptation not just to feed off of it but actually to profit from it and this power - I remember Kissinger said "Power was the ultimate aphrodisiac." I mean, that really kind of puts it in really stark relief …
LS: Yes, and then you have secret power. I mean, this is then the crack version of this aphrodisiac.
TD: Well, you say the crack version, but you get, people get, they mainline it. They get addicted to it because you know something someone doesn't [know], and that's why I call it the currency of power. I know something you don't, which means I have power over you by virtue of having that knowledge, and it allows me an enormous advantage, especially on the world stage or if I'm in agreements or if I'm surveilling you at the G-20 and I know what you're saying in your hotel room or with your staff. That gives me enormous leverage .. if I've got secret information. If I'm inside the banking systems, if I'm truly - I've insider information even though there are all kinds of rules against it, but if I can get away with it in secret and I have the protection of certain powers that be, both government as well as the corporate world, well, my gosh. I mean I'm not, I'm generally not going to limit myself and because it feeds on itself it's never enough.
I'll give you a small example of this and it's where I used to work when I was a manager at Booz Allen Hamilton. I remember being down at headquarters for Booz in northern Virginia and I'm hearing a conversation between two of the partners, the senior executives, and [one] had just gotten his gigantic bonus for the year and he was just contemplating in conversation with his colleague what am I going to spend the money on this year? Is it going to be a new Porsche or is it going to be that new, you know, summer place on the beach, the cottage on the beach. I mean that was the priority because he, I mean that was the priority. This is what happens.
The money is the root of a lot of things. I mean I give people their due in terms of making a profit and a living, but we're talking enormous amounts of money literally at the central levers of power, and when it's done in secret away from the - well away - from the public, away from reporters and journalists. There's a whole lot that I can do and it gives me enormous control over others and ultimately what this is about is its power and control over others.
LS: A lot of this money ends up off-shore. Therefore, do you take those recent off-shores leagues very seriously?
TD: Yes I do, but I think they're desperate to protect it because remember the off-shore accounts are off-shore on purpose because they're "outside" the reach of traditional US or even banking laws because it makes it much, much harder to go after them. Remember they set up these special off-shore mechanisms specifically for the purpose of hiding and shadowing it from other prying eyes so I'm not surprised at all. I mean, there have been whistleblowers with the banking system and yet in some cases the whistleblowers themselves ended up in prison, right? So the banks have an enormous amount to protect and hide.
I smile at all this because it's just, it's kind of the way things are, it's just - I continue to say - at what cost to society at large. Others will say, "Well, hey it's whatever you can get away with and if it's institutionalized and normalized then hey that's the way it is", and you know this kind of power it looks just, let's just be real here. This kind of power doesn't yield willingly; it's just not going to give itself up even when it's exposed.
LS: Does the NSA provide the other 15 US intelligence agencies that are working in other areas the possibilities of information gathering. The background of my question is, it may be true that the NSA does not engage in economic espionage directly. However, if the possibility of information gathering is provided to other agencies which then take care of the economic espionage field the statement of the NSA is true but the information is still ultimately wrong.
TD: Actually I agree. There's one thing. NSA is a technical collection agency. It has no problem collecting information, the real question is what is it using it for? What is it doing with that information and there are arrangements and agreements within the US government for information that comes from NSA's enormous reach and share it for so it can use it for other purpose even though that's not why NSA took it in the first place. On the other hand I will tell you there are secret requirements it would take, it happen to be this particular source of method and you happen to hear it run across this, hey, please tell us. I mean, it happens.
If that happens it's quite routine, so your question is a very loaded question in terms of yes, if you have the information and you're gather it and you acquire it in secret and you can use to your advantage economically or for industrial espionage where you can learn about competitors on the world stage or to leverage your ability to improve your chances on gaining contracts, okay, or simply understanding what others are doing on the world stage economically. Then you will do so because it does give you enormous leverage. The leverage itself wants to know and have that knowledge.
LS: I think you have to guess about this question, but how is NSA intelligence provided to integrated and/or coordinated with the banking operations that are managing government accounts and interventions in the currency, commodity and financial markets, such as the Exchange Stabilization Fund, which is part of the United States Treasury but actually it's hosted at the Federal Reserve of New York.
TD: Well, that's a very tightly coupled arrangement, and the Treasury Department has its own intelligence unit. There is a direct relationship; it's incredibly deep in the shadows. They obviously don't talk about it because we're talking about extraordinarily sensitive information. It's information that not only translates into enormous power but it translates into enormous leverage in terms of billions and trillions of dollars. I mean we're not talking just a few million or even hundreds of millions, we're talking hundreds of billions plus that are routinely affected by decisions that are made and when you have this kind of intelligence it's going to be used, alright.
So, but they don't talk about that, but those arrangements are there. And there are units that share information understand that the funnel point for this [is] within the intelligence apparatus, you know there's like 17 different intelligence agencies [and] one of them is inside the Treasury Department. Remember, you do have that relationship that extends to the Federal Reserve Bank, which by the way is a private entity, it is not, formally, part of the US government. If you actually look at it, it does not have a government frank when it sends out mail, it has its own, but that's a much larger story, though, the creation of the Federal Reserve Bank.
LS: Yes, it surely is, but as you know Warren Buffett once talked about weapons of financial mass destruction relating to collateralized mortgages. Do you think there are some equivalent weapons of financial mass destruction at the disposal of those forces we are talking about and are they employed?
TD: Yes, you will see like blockades, financial blockades or lots of restrictions placed on trade. Yes, having these instruments of power especially over the flows of financial transactions that course back and forth gives you the ability to effect certain outcomes, and if you decide you want to shape world history then yes, you can withhold, withdraw or invest in ways that have enormous power. I mean money is the life blood, money is such a critical life blood, for finance, it's such a critical life blood of economies, and if you restrict it or expand it depending, and if you marry that to political outcomes,you have, again, the phrase comes to mind, is enormous leverage over, in some cases, over elections or even the way in which certain activities will take place in other countries let alone your own.
Just look at the Wall Street Main Street dichotomy. I mean there is this Occupy Movement. They're just highlighting the fact that you have this incredible redistribution of wealth and what's been collateralized, what was collateralized was the future treasure. You basically collateralized all the assets of the country ... essentially mortgaging your own future,but you collateralized and leverage it on an enormous scale and [if] that's not sufficient then you create your own collateral and then play that game - okay - which is like a Ponzi scheme on steroids at the highest levels of government.
LS: Well, again, some kind of crack version. Is PRISM & Co. just the tip of the iceberg for example in comparison to the DARPA [Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency] project Total Information Awareness, respectively Trusted Information Environment?
TD: Well, let's be reasonable. The Total Information Awareness environment never disappeared. There was a lot of push back, but it was, it went deeper into the shadows, and unfortunately this is typically the way it happens. When a secret program is exposed, particularly that kind of a program, post-9/11 it just goes deeper, and so Prism is one aspect of total information awareness.
They're not going to call it that. They're not going to stick, you know, a pyramid with an all-seeing eye on it. That was kind of obvious wasn't it, so you make it less obviously and [in] this case you have secret agreements between major Internet service providers that grants NSA either near total access or direct access to just find anything in terms of subscriber information that's resident on the servers, the stored units and facilities of those Internet service providers. When you say "tip of the iceberg", I think there are many, many other arrangements especially the data provider, the data broker business.
These companies, by the way, are not doing this for nothing. They're not doing this because it's to benefit society. They're companies and I always look at this from the dark side. I have to because of my own experiences and what I endured and the ordeal that I went through.
They're not doing this just because it's for national security. That's partly the argument they already made with the senior executives of those companies which they brought in to provide cover for it, but the reality of it is that they're getting rewarded. They're getting paid.
The surveillance system, the surveillance state is a profit center for them.
So they get to leverage it and they get the leverage and data twice, okay so speaking of fungibility. They get to sell the subscribers their services for monthly fees or contracts and then they get to turn around and provide the same information okay to the government and get the government to pay for it as well and protect them. It's a protection, I mean it's a racket because they have immunity from any law suits that are brought their way, especially class action.
That was, in particular, when legislation was passed to give the telecoms immunity - it was so to avoid having to deal with the potential exposure, obviously real exposure, because subscribers didn't opt in that their data would simply be given over to the government wholesale in secret. So they had to have protection.
LS: What's your opinion about the drift that the United States have taken in general? I mean, I can imagine that it must be a very painful thing for you.
TD: The drift, oh boy. I'll say it this way. It's probably the starkest way for me to put it. I flew in RC-135s, an electronic warfare aircraft, during the latter years of the Cold War. I was trained as a crypto-linguist. Those voice intercepts as well as electronic intelligence intercepts - so communications and electronics as we would call the business - COMINT, but SIGINT equaled COMINT plus ELIT; communications intelligence plus electronic intelligence.
The target country in which I became an expert over a number of years was East Germany, and I listened in on state-level communications, military communications, you name it, and that was just simply from what we can pick up, alright in many cases using highly specialized equipment that was quite classified. I never imagined, to answer your question even more directly, I never imagined that the template of the Stasi, the secret police in East Germany having the motto to "to know everything", would be used as the playbook by the United States to create the largest surveillance apparatus that the world has ever seen.
I just never imagined it, and I never imagined that I would find myself criminalized by my own government simply because I supported and defended the Constitution and apparently had the naive belief that the idea of the Constitution for all its faults and failures and contradictions, right, that had endured though over 220 years, that somehow the sovereign rights, the inalienable rights of human beings didn't matter when it came to the State wanting to protect me. There is this moral rectitude that the surveillance secrecy regime wraps itself in as did the Stasi.
Remember they were the protectors of the State, that somehow the moral high ground superseded any rights, freedoms or liberties that an individual citizen had, and so when you say the drift, this drift is quite dramatic. This drift is citizens that have rights are now becoming subjects to and of the State in which the State simply regards them as wards of the State, and you get to have privileges that are determined by the State, and you have to continue to prove that as a subject of the State that you are innocent. It's a complete inverse of our Western system of justice.
I just never imagined that I would be having this conversation. Remember I was on the end of a very long stick in which that stick was the crowbar, the stake of national security that the government wanted to drive right through me, brought me out on the comments, the public comments, and say, "Look, this is what happens when you dare hold up a mirror. This is what happens when you dare speak truth to or of power. We will come down on you hard and hammer you good," because you know at one point during their investigation of me - and this is why it's deeply personal I lived this surveillance state. I've lived the physical electronic surveillance. I've lived with the distinct reality that I could have spent many, many decades in prison.
At one point during their investigation they actually, the Chief Prosecutor, this is in 2008, two full years before I was actually indicted. He said, "Mr Drake, how would you like to spend the rest of your life in prison unless you co-operate with our investigation." I mean what does that mean? I mean on a deeply individual level that means that I have no life? The State can just take it away because they determine I'm a threat to the State. A threat to the State, why? Because I held up a mirror? That's what happened, and drift means were going down a very slippery slope, and I don't want us to go off into the deep end. I mean, Frank Church, the head of, he was Senator Frank Church.
The Church Committee had an extraordinary series of hearings revealing and disclosing all the abuses of power by the Nixon administration and even before the Nixon administration by previous administrations. He, himself, warned the nation what would happen with the advances in technology if we had to find ourselves in the abyss of a surveillance state, would we be able to pull ourselves back out of it. [3] He left open the question as to whether or not we would.
I don't want to see the dark shadows, secrecy and surveillance becoming the norm. That's not how we want to live as human beings. It means we're going backwards in terms of our own progress in with respect of democracy and freedom and yes, too many, I mean too many, colleagues, too many people I know - remember I'm in a very unique position. Right now of all the prosecutions that have been brought forward by the Obama administration alone, unprecedented in US history, more than all other administration combined, people charged under Espionage Act, are non-spy activities. They are now considered more of a threat to the State than even the traditional spy.
They said that. They said that in my case. They said that I would have the blood of American soldiers on my hands. That what I did, threatened, endangered the lives of American soldiers. They even argued in the court room at my case and they even said this publicly that the whistleblower is a greater threat than traditional spies because traditional spies usually disclose their secrets in secret to another spy or another foreign intelligence operation or agency. When you leak it gets spread across all the newspapers for everybody to see, and that's a greater threat to national security.
So, what is national security has now become the State religion, and you do not question, and that the high priest of secrecy are the rules. I mean what have we come to? I don't want to live in that kind of society. I don't want to be Winston in 1984 cowering in the corner because that was the only place he had any ... where he couldn't be seen by the cameras which meant they knew where he was. I mean I got colleagues right now who are under physical, intimidating physical and electronic surveillance because why? Because the State considers them a threat, and they're trying to send a message.
It's an extraordinary development and there's people more than willing to engage in that conduct, and they're more than willing to worship national security over the sovereignty of individuals. I don't want to live that kind of a life, and that's why I've dedicated the rest of my life to defending life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness because it matters to who we are as human beings.
I can stand as a free man. What I meant to say earlier, why am I going on about this. Everybody else has been charged under the Espionage Act or the equivalent. Now, I was the first one. I was the first person, the second, only the second whistleblower - the first was Ellsberg - but I was the first person under the Obama administration charged with espionage. Many others have followed, and yet as I look back I'm right now, other ironically enough, other than Edward Snowden, who's "free in Russia" - how ironic is that, okay? All of the others that have been charged or indicted with espionage are either in jail, okay; or are facing jail, okay; or have been charged with espionage and are facing many, many years in prison.
It's an extraordinary development, and I mean it's not just those charged with espionage; it's all these other related areas ... of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, like Jeremy Hammond, where you flight political activism disclosures of illegal and criminal activity on the part of the government and secret corporations in league with the government and ends up being criminalized, you're being thrown into prison in his case and only pled out because the pressures are enormous.
I know, I was facing many, many decades in prison and part of the leverage that they had is like, "Well, if you plead out Mr Drake maybe you'll only spend 15 years in prison or maybe 12 years or maybe we'll be able to work it where it's only five years." I mean there's a whole history behind how far the government went to destroy me, but I'm here speaking to you as a free human being. Do you know what it means to be able to keep your freedom after the government's spent so many years trying to take that away from you. They mean more to me now than ever.
LS: Whose interests are ultimately served by secret intelligence agencies in the West?
TD: Well, it's become less and less the citizens and has become more and more a protectorate for the powers that be.
LS: Yes, but didn't they set up, for example, the CIA in the first place?
TD: See, I've said this and a lot of people look at me funny and even take exception to it. The real history is, you have to context this crucial to understanding all this. The CIA which, you know its predecessor was OSS, you know the Office of Strategic Services born during World War II.
LS: Which was placed, by the way, in the financial district of New York.
TD: That's correct, that should tell you something and, of course, those links go back even further. I mean the culpability of financial interests are at the center of so much in terms of even modern history. I think modern history, if you go back even into the 19th century, you know it's an extraordinary history to understand it but most people will give it short shift because so much of it is shrouded in mystery and secrecy. Yes, isn't it interesting that the OSS was centered in the financial district. That should tell you something; but that gave them enormous cover for the operations they want to engage in.
Well, out of World War II came the National Security Act in 1947, which created the CIA, it created the Department of Defense, it created the Air Force. Five years later it was followed by a secret directive, still secret to this day, signed by Truman creating the NSA, and so that whole apparatus so closely aligned with the heart and center of power within the United States but politically and financially and economically over time gives that enormous, enormous power and with great power comes great responsibility.
The problem is, when you enshroud it, wrap it in secrecy, then the opportunities for enormous irresponsibility are there to do. They are there to take place, and that's precisely what's happened, and it's serving private interests - it's clearly not serving public interest.
LS: Sometimes one of the frightening thoughts that I have is that America needs to take a look in the mirror and see that they have become pretty much Nazi-like and what they fought. They have fought, and they [have] become pretty similar to the enemy.
TD: Actually, unfortunately, there's a number of people who actually admire the Nazis. They admire that enormous power, and it's like, well because we're America - I mean, this is the thing that really, really concerns me, that somehow because we're America we have special protection. We are exceptional but that allows us the license, it gives, it grants us license to engage in the very practices the Nuremberg Trials put in stark relief.
I've spoken with one of the lead lawyers on the Nuremberg Trials. It was an extraordinary conversation over many hours. I just never imagined that here we are engaging in the equivalent. Somehow, you know, I'm just following orders. That's the very thing that I took exception to, was orders. Somehow the orders took priority over rule of law, and then rule of law got corrupted by passing and enabling that legislation, like article 48 [which allowed the president, under certain circumstances, to take emergency measures without the prior consent of the Reichstag] in the Weimar Republic.
The history here is really unnerving, and that somehow we're immune to that. We're not immune at all. We're not and you're already seeing a police state, a virtual. I've called, I've said a digital fence already surrounds us.
We saw the physical wall of East Germany to keep people in, right? Well, we already have a digital fence that tracks us. I'll just give you an example of this, Lars: When I go home I often go home from the beltway around Washington DC. I head north on Route 29 and the main intersection just north of the beltway. When I first started going that way I would just see all these, what would appear to be random flashes at the intersection. It dawned on me shortly thereafter that was no random flashes. Those are simply cameras taking pictures of license plates, 24/7 365, and there's many, many of those cameras set-up all around DC.
What does it mean to be tracked and monitored like this? I mean ultimately it's about control, about social control. It's about knowing where people are anytime you want to know about them. I don't want to live in that kind of a society because it has an extraordinary corrosive effect, yet the technology is benign.
It's always about what do you use it for, right? Those cameras aren't there to detect red-light violators, you know running red lights. It's simply to take pictures of license plates. I didn't opt in, but I guess the license plate is public because I can actually see it on the car. So if I'm not in public then its fair game, but what am I doing with that information? See it comes back to what do I do with the information, and if we don't stand up for, you know, people - a vacuum is created. If you don't stand up for your sovereign rights, there are those who will take them away from you and they love having power.
It's a pathological condition when you actually derive pleasure from having power over others. You will use power. You will turn, you will manipulate. You will turn them into subjects and objects of your attention. That's not life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That means you're now subject to and subject of somebody else and the last time I checked in human history it's a form of slavery or indentured servant or a serf.
LS: A lot of talk is going on in your country about socialism. I think this is a very phony discussion, because wouldn't you agree with me that it's time to smell the coffee and talk about fascism in the US?
TD: Actually, that's the word ... Anytime I used it, when I use the word "fascism" people cringe. They don't even want to go there. Even when the overwhelming evidence says that we actually have a virtual fascist government that has extraordinary ties to Wall Street, the financial banking sector and large major corporations on a truly extraordinary scale. It's a full argument, the "socialism" thing is faux. There are people I know in my extended networks that are progressives; unfortunately they're not stopping to smell the coffee because the face of fascism is - it's not a pleasant thing to look at because that means you're looking in the mirror.
LS: And you [the United States] have fought the fascists in World War II.
TD: Yes, we sure did. I mean, my own father fought in World War II, and I see one of the silver linings of my own case - I did plead out to a minor misdemeanor for exceeding authorized use for a computer. I had community service for 240 hours. I interviewed almost 50 veterans of World War II to the present day and the World War II veterans feared for the future of our republic. They do, and they said, "Geez, everything I fought against in World War II, was it in vain?" Some of them are actually asking that question that we're becoming the very thing that we fought against.
LS: Well, it was said that the next time fascism comes, it comes in the form of anti-fascism. [4]
TD: Usually it does and wrapped in the robes of moral rectitude and patriotism.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_...02-231213.html
By Lars Schall
The transcript of the following interview was exclusively arranged for Asia Times Online. An audio file of the interview is published at the German financial web site "Die Metallwoche" here.
Thomas Drake, born 1957, is a former senior executive at the US National Security Agency who blew the whistle on a multi-billion dollar program fraud and cover up as well as the NSA's secret unlawful surveillance program. The US Department of Justice prosecuted and indicted him under the World War I-era Espionage Act in April, 2010, under 10 felony counts including that he "mishandled documents". The case against him ultimately collapsed. He eventually pled to one misdemeanor count for exceeding authorized use of a computer. He is a former airborne crypto-linguist and electronic warfare mission crew supervisor. From 1991-1998 he worked at Booz Allen Hamilton as a management, strategy and technology consultant and software quality engineer. In 2011, Drake became the recipient of the Ridenhour Truth-Telling Prize and co-recipient of the Sam Adams Award. He holds a Bachelor's and two Master's degrees as well as numerous graduate certificates.
(a lengthy interview, the following are extracts)
The United States has invested, and when I say invested it's in quotes, but it has spent literally trillions of dollars, when you sum up the totals over the last 12 years, related to national defense, national security, intelligence, homeland security. It's just an extraordinary redistribution of US treasury and wealth to "deal with an existential threat". Because it spent so much money it becomes a significant flywheel. You're not going to be able to stop it very easily, and it continues to justify itself by saying we have to have America secure and we have to keep people feeling safe.
LS: I have a couple of questions regarding the use of legendary software PROMIS [Prosecutor's Management Information System], which was developed by my friend William A Hamilton, the founder of the US information technology company Inslaw Inc, and he was also a programer for NSA. Do you know anything about NSA's use of unauthorized copyright infringing copies of Inslaw's PROMIS software for at least 25 years as the software it sold to banks in support of its "follow the money" SIGINT mission?
TD: I don't have any specific knowledge of it. I am certainly aware of the program. I was not part of it. I have heard about it and am aware, had become aware of it over the years, and ... I've had people who've had the history of that program who have actually contacted me over the last couple of years. Unfortunately, it is an example - though I don't have, I can't validate or verify it - not any of the allegations or assertions, any of the history that's been revealed and disclosed regarding PROMIS, none of it surprises me and here's why. It's unfortunate but it is, and I had the direct experience at NSA that NSA would either abscond with or would cast aside really powerful technology and then use it for their own purposes.
I'll give you the example that I'm intimately familiar with, that was ThinThread, the extraordinary program in which I was the executive program manager during late 2001 and 2002 before it met a summary death at the hands of NSA leadership and placed in the Indiana Jones digital warehouse never to be seen again, in direct violation of congressional legislation signed into law to deploy ThinThread to the 18 most critical counter-terrorism sites.
Well, there's one part of ThinThread that was actually used by the secret surveillance program called Stellar Wind, the very program that I blew the whistle on - they abused that program to by-pass the Fourth Amendment and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. There were many crypto-mathematician brains behind the algorithms of ThinThread and this one particular sub-program. He's actually apologized to the nation for it because he never intended that it be used in like manner. They stripped all of the protections off of it.
This pattern is unfortunate. You also have a pattern where large companies will do everything they can to ... let's say they have a company working for them, a sub-contractor. It will actually take intellectual property and then will re-package it for their own use and sell it to the government or in partnership with the government, so none of this surprises me. I just can't speak directly to the specifics of PROMIS, but I'm certainly well aware of program and what NSA did with it.
LS: Understood, but I would like to ask you, nevertheless one more question related to this. This would be, once NSA controlled the software used by banks to process wire transfers or money and letters of credit it could in theory add, delete and/or modify the amounts of funds in accounts because the funds are just data like any other kind of data. Have you ever heard that NSA or other intelligence agency exploited the banks surveillance version of PROMIS towards such an end?
TD: I've certainly heard of it, I just don't have any proof nor can I verify or validate, but I will tell you one of the aspects that has not been fully disclosed although I blew the whistle on it early on when I, within the system, had gone to key people within the government particularly congressional intelligence committees regarding Stellar Wind. One of the things that Stellar Wind did was actually without, again, without warrants, was gain direct access to financial transaction information at the bank level, credit card level, and this is extraordinary - these secret agreements were put into place regarding the flow of money.
This is shrouded in all kinds of secrecy ... but I was well aware what would that mean if there were those within the system who chose to abuse it, you know far beyond the purpose of tracking money laundering and things of that nature because this is all hidden; ... the life blood of any economy is the money, the money flows, the money deposits, the investments. I can't speak specifically to the allegations or assertions that you mentioned, but I can tell you that I would not be surprised at all that it was used in that manner given my knowledge of other abuses of information and systems that people in secret would use or have access to.
The temptations are enormous. I come back to the fundamentals of the human condition, and temptations are enormous when you have that kind … You hear about all of these lower level stuff. We hear about contract fraud. A lot of that is all nickel and dime stuff. People just trying to rip-off the government by charging, you know $6 or something that only cost 50 cents to make.
Even beyond the contract agreements, you know this, the padding their expense accounts. Even on the part of government employees, you know there are clearly the case of people who will try to get away with things, but you're talking in a more systemic level - but I can't, again, I just want to be clear with you here and the audience, I don't have any specific knowledge regarding the use of the PROMIS software for those purposes in terms of manipulating accounts.
LS: But do you think that intelligence information is also used by big players for insider trading, respectively informed trading?
TD: Well, see, now you're asking what I think is actually the more sensitive question, the more relevant question. Okay, information is power; it's the currency of power far more now than ever. It's always really been that way, it's just the technology greatly facilitates this?
LS: Hasn't John Negroponte said that data is worth more than money?
TD: Yes, precisely because I can convert it. In fact data is actually much more - you know they talk about money being fungible because you can convert it into so many different things, but what's behind that? How do you manage and exercise the fungibility. How do you optimize its fungibility-ness to say it that way. It's fungibleness, okay to make up a word. That's the information, that's data, and if you have access in secret to this type of information this gives you enormous leverage in the marketplace, for example.
It's extraordinary. Just look at the manipulation from just what's been disclosed publicly in terms of Wall Street and over, all over the largest of them we have yet to see anybody actually go to prison at the highest levels. Enormous - you know, it's the whole argument about banks being too big to fail; you know we're seeing incredible amounts of money - the Fed alone with its QE [quantitative easing]. It's pumping massive amounts of money. It's not actually helping the economy as much as it's basically compensating for all the bank losses.
Look at the stock market, I mean this is institutional manipulation at the highest levels of government in collusion with the levers of financial power. It's an extraordinary power and it definitely becomes normalized and institutionalized, a lot of other things, and if you're at the top of the pile, guess what - the pay-offs are enormous.
LS: Yes, and if you have that insider information and, on the other side, you have all that cheap money, you can leverage your bet and it's a safe bet.
TD: Yes, it's a safe bet precisely. I mean, that was part of the joke when the insiders in terms of Wall Street is that, you know, the full faith in credit of the United States was there to prop them up if it all failed. I just find it, I mean, it's like "wow". And ultimately who pays the price? I mean ultimately, in the end, who pays the price? A lot of this was paid by money, but the thing is ultimately there have to be real assets behind it, and when the assets themselves are now being leveraged to the hilt what are you left with? I mean that's, now you don't even have a real economy. It all becomes kind of this virtual thing and the number of people - this has been the 1% as it were. What, to whom, does this benefit go? I always follow the money, who does it benefit?
LS: And towards what end is it used? You talked about power and money, so I think it has to express somehow even though we don't know how it does.
TD: Well, you see the large contours of it already. The effects do show up in the economy. The effects do show up in the impact on just the everyday financial flows. The enormous transactions that course within and between nations and around the globe. This has been the reality of human history - trade within and amongst people - and when you sit at the crossroads, the nexus of this, it's an enormous temptation not just to feed off of it but actually to profit from it and this power - I remember Kissinger said "Power was the ultimate aphrodisiac." I mean, that really kind of puts it in really stark relief …
LS: Yes, and then you have secret power. I mean, this is then the crack version of this aphrodisiac.
TD: Well, you say the crack version, but you get, people get, they mainline it. They get addicted to it because you know something someone doesn't [know], and that's why I call it the currency of power. I know something you don't, which means I have power over you by virtue of having that knowledge, and it allows me an enormous advantage, especially on the world stage or if I'm in agreements or if I'm surveilling you at the G-20 and I know what you're saying in your hotel room or with your staff. That gives me enormous leverage .. if I've got secret information. If I'm inside the banking systems, if I'm truly - I've insider information even though there are all kinds of rules against it, but if I can get away with it in secret and I have the protection of certain powers that be, both government as well as the corporate world, well, my gosh. I mean I'm not, I'm generally not going to limit myself and because it feeds on itself it's never enough.
I'll give you a small example of this and it's where I used to work when I was a manager at Booz Allen Hamilton. I remember being down at headquarters for Booz in northern Virginia and I'm hearing a conversation between two of the partners, the senior executives, and [one] had just gotten his gigantic bonus for the year and he was just contemplating in conversation with his colleague what am I going to spend the money on this year? Is it going to be a new Porsche or is it going to be that new, you know, summer place on the beach, the cottage on the beach. I mean that was the priority because he, I mean that was the priority. This is what happens.
The money is the root of a lot of things. I mean I give people their due in terms of making a profit and a living, but we're talking enormous amounts of money literally at the central levers of power, and when it's done in secret away from the - well away - from the public, away from reporters and journalists. There's a whole lot that I can do and it gives me enormous control over others and ultimately what this is about is its power and control over others.
LS: A lot of this money ends up off-shore. Therefore, do you take those recent off-shores leagues very seriously?
TD: Yes I do, but I think they're desperate to protect it because remember the off-shore accounts are off-shore on purpose because they're "outside" the reach of traditional US or even banking laws because it makes it much, much harder to go after them. Remember they set up these special off-shore mechanisms specifically for the purpose of hiding and shadowing it from other prying eyes so I'm not surprised at all. I mean, there have been whistleblowers with the banking system and yet in some cases the whistleblowers themselves ended up in prison, right? So the banks have an enormous amount to protect and hide.
I smile at all this because it's just, it's kind of the way things are, it's just - I continue to say - at what cost to society at large. Others will say, "Well, hey it's whatever you can get away with and if it's institutionalized and normalized then hey that's the way it is", and you know this kind of power it looks just, let's just be real here. This kind of power doesn't yield willingly; it's just not going to give itself up even when it's exposed.
LS: Does the NSA provide the other 15 US intelligence agencies that are working in other areas the possibilities of information gathering. The background of my question is, it may be true that the NSA does not engage in economic espionage directly. However, if the possibility of information gathering is provided to other agencies which then take care of the economic espionage field the statement of the NSA is true but the information is still ultimately wrong.
TD: Actually I agree. There's one thing. NSA is a technical collection agency. It has no problem collecting information, the real question is what is it using it for? What is it doing with that information and there are arrangements and agreements within the US government for information that comes from NSA's enormous reach and share it for so it can use it for other purpose even though that's not why NSA took it in the first place. On the other hand I will tell you there are secret requirements it would take, it happen to be this particular source of method and you happen to hear it run across this, hey, please tell us. I mean, it happens.
If that happens it's quite routine, so your question is a very loaded question in terms of yes, if you have the information and you're gather it and you acquire it in secret and you can use to your advantage economically or for industrial espionage where you can learn about competitors on the world stage or to leverage your ability to improve your chances on gaining contracts, okay, or simply understanding what others are doing on the world stage economically. Then you will do so because it does give you enormous leverage. The leverage itself wants to know and have that knowledge.
LS: I think you have to guess about this question, but how is NSA intelligence provided to integrated and/or coordinated with the banking operations that are managing government accounts and interventions in the currency, commodity and financial markets, such as the Exchange Stabilization Fund, which is part of the United States Treasury but actually it's hosted at the Federal Reserve of New York.
TD: Well, that's a very tightly coupled arrangement, and the Treasury Department has its own intelligence unit. There is a direct relationship; it's incredibly deep in the shadows. They obviously don't talk about it because we're talking about extraordinarily sensitive information. It's information that not only translates into enormous power but it translates into enormous leverage in terms of billions and trillions of dollars. I mean we're not talking just a few million or even hundreds of millions, we're talking hundreds of billions plus that are routinely affected by decisions that are made and when you have this kind of intelligence it's going to be used, alright.
So, but they don't talk about that, but those arrangements are there. And there are units that share information understand that the funnel point for this [is] within the intelligence apparatus, you know there's like 17 different intelligence agencies [and] one of them is inside the Treasury Department. Remember, you do have that relationship that extends to the Federal Reserve Bank, which by the way is a private entity, it is not, formally, part of the US government. If you actually look at it, it does not have a government frank when it sends out mail, it has its own, but that's a much larger story, though, the creation of the Federal Reserve Bank.
LS: Yes, it surely is, but as you know Warren Buffett once talked about weapons of financial mass destruction relating to collateralized mortgages. Do you think there are some equivalent weapons of financial mass destruction at the disposal of those forces we are talking about and are they employed?
TD: Yes, you will see like blockades, financial blockades or lots of restrictions placed on trade. Yes, having these instruments of power especially over the flows of financial transactions that course back and forth gives you the ability to effect certain outcomes, and if you decide you want to shape world history then yes, you can withhold, withdraw or invest in ways that have enormous power. I mean money is the life blood, money is such a critical life blood, for finance, it's such a critical life blood of economies, and if you restrict it or expand it depending, and if you marry that to political outcomes,you have, again, the phrase comes to mind, is enormous leverage over, in some cases, over elections or even the way in which certain activities will take place in other countries let alone your own.
Just look at the Wall Street Main Street dichotomy. I mean there is this Occupy Movement. They're just highlighting the fact that you have this incredible redistribution of wealth and what's been collateralized, what was collateralized was the future treasure. You basically collateralized all the assets of the country ... essentially mortgaging your own future,but you collateralized and leverage it on an enormous scale and [if] that's not sufficient then you create your own collateral and then play that game - okay - which is like a Ponzi scheme on steroids at the highest levels of government.
LS: Well, again, some kind of crack version. Is PRISM & Co. just the tip of the iceberg for example in comparison to the DARPA [Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency] project Total Information Awareness, respectively Trusted Information Environment?
TD: Well, let's be reasonable. The Total Information Awareness environment never disappeared. There was a lot of push back, but it was, it went deeper into the shadows, and unfortunately this is typically the way it happens. When a secret program is exposed, particularly that kind of a program, post-9/11 it just goes deeper, and so Prism is one aspect of total information awareness.
They're not going to call it that. They're not going to stick, you know, a pyramid with an all-seeing eye on it. That was kind of obvious wasn't it, so you make it less obviously and [in] this case you have secret agreements between major Internet service providers that grants NSA either near total access or direct access to just find anything in terms of subscriber information that's resident on the servers, the stored units and facilities of those Internet service providers. When you say "tip of the iceberg", I think there are many, many other arrangements especially the data provider, the data broker business.
These companies, by the way, are not doing this for nothing. They're not doing this because it's to benefit society. They're companies and I always look at this from the dark side. I have to because of my own experiences and what I endured and the ordeal that I went through.
They're not doing this just because it's for national security. That's partly the argument they already made with the senior executives of those companies which they brought in to provide cover for it, but the reality of it is that they're getting rewarded. They're getting paid.
The surveillance system, the surveillance state is a profit center for them.
So they get to leverage it and they get the leverage and data twice, okay so speaking of fungibility. They get to sell the subscribers their services for monthly fees or contracts and then they get to turn around and provide the same information okay to the government and get the government to pay for it as well and protect them. It's a protection, I mean it's a racket because they have immunity from any law suits that are brought their way, especially class action.
That was, in particular, when legislation was passed to give the telecoms immunity - it was so to avoid having to deal with the potential exposure, obviously real exposure, because subscribers didn't opt in that their data would simply be given over to the government wholesale in secret. So they had to have protection.
LS: What's your opinion about the drift that the United States have taken in general? I mean, I can imagine that it must be a very painful thing for you.
TD: The drift, oh boy. I'll say it this way. It's probably the starkest way for me to put it. I flew in RC-135s, an electronic warfare aircraft, during the latter years of the Cold War. I was trained as a crypto-linguist. Those voice intercepts as well as electronic intelligence intercepts - so communications and electronics as we would call the business - COMINT, but SIGINT equaled COMINT plus ELIT; communications intelligence plus electronic intelligence.
The target country in which I became an expert over a number of years was East Germany, and I listened in on state-level communications, military communications, you name it, and that was just simply from what we can pick up, alright in many cases using highly specialized equipment that was quite classified. I never imagined, to answer your question even more directly, I never imagined that the template of the Stasi, the secret police in East Germany having the motto to "to know everything", would be used as the playbook by the United States to create the largest surveillance apparatus that the world has ever seen.
I just never imagined it, and I never imagined that I would find myself criminalized by my own government simply because I supported and defended the Constitution and apparently had the naive belief that the idea of the Constitution for all its faults and failures and contradictions, right, that had endured though over 220 years, that somehow the sovereign rights, the inalienable rights of human beings didn't matter when it came to the State wanting to protect me. There is this moral rectitude that the surveillance secrecy regime wraps itself in as did the Stasi.
Remember they were the protectors of the State, that somehow the moral high ground superseded any rights, freedoms or liberties that an individual citizen had, and so when you say the drift, this drift is quite dramatic. This drift is citizens that have rights are now becoming subjects to and of the State in which the State simply regards them as wards of the State, and you get to have privileges that are determined by the State, and you have to continue to prove that as a subject of the State that you are innocent. It's a complete inverse of our Western system of justice.
I just never imagined that I would be having this conversation. Remember I was on the end of a very long stick in which that stick was the crowbar, the stake of national security that the government wanted to drive right through me, brought me out on the comments, the public comments, and say, "Look, this is what happens when you dare hold up a mirror. This is what happens when you dare speak truth to or of power. We will come down on you hard and hammer you good," because you know at one point during their investigation of me - and this is why it's deeply personal I lived this surveillance state. I've lived the physical electronic surveillance. I've lived with the distinct reality that I could have spent many, many decades in prison.
At one point during their investigation they actually, the Chief Prosecutor, this is in 2008, two full years before I was actually indicted. He said, "Mr Drake, how would you like to spend the rest of your life in prison unless you co-operate with our investigation." I mean what does that mean? I mean on a deeply individual level that means that I have no life? The State can just take it away because they determine I'm a threat to the State. A threat to the State, why? Because I held up a mirror? That's what happened, and drift means were going down a very slippery slope, and I don't want us to go off into the deep end. I mean, Frank Church, the head of, he was Senator Frank Church.
The Church Committee had an extraordinary series of hearings revealing and disclosing all the abuses of power by the Nixon administration and even before the Nixon administration by previous administrations. He, himself, warned the nation what would happen with the advances in technology if we had to find ourselves in the abyss of a surveillance state, would we be able to pull ourselves back out of it. [3] He left open the question as to whether or not we would.
I don't want to see the dark shadows, secrecy and surveillance becoming the norm. That's not how we want to live as human beings. It means we're going backwards in terms of our own progress in with respect of democracy and freedom and yes, too many, I mean too many, colleagues, too many people I know - remember I'm in a very unique position. Right now of all the prosecutions that have been brought forward by the Obama administration alone, unprecedented in US history, more than all other administration combined, people charged under Espionage Act, are non-spy activities. They are now considered more of a threat to the State than even the traditional spy.
They said that. They said that in my case. They said that I would have the blood of American soldiers on my hands. That what I did, threatened, endangered the lives of American soldiers. They even argued in the court room at my case and they even said this publicly that the whistleblower is a greater threat than traditional spies because traditional spies usually disclose their secrets in secret to another spy or another foreign intelligence operation or agency. When you leak it gets spread across all the newspapers for everybody to see, and that's a greater threat to national security.
So, what is national security has now become the State religion, and you do not question, and that the high priest of secrecy are the rules. I mean what have we come to? I don't want to live in that kind of society. I don't want to be Winston in 1984 cowering in the corner because that was the only place he had any ... where he couldn't be seen by the cameras which meant they knew where he was. I mean I got colleagues right now who are under physical, intimidating physical and electronic surveillance because why? Because the State considers them a threat, and they're trying to send a message.
It's an extraordinary development and there's people more than willing to engage in that conduct, and they're more than willing to worship national security over the sovereignty of individuals. I don't want to live that kind of a life, and that's why I've dedicated the rest of my life to defending life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness because it matters to who we are as human beings.
I can stand as a free man. What I meant to say earlier, why am I going on about this. Everybody else has been charged under the Espionage Act or the equivalent. Now, I was the first one. I was the first person, the second, only the second whistleblower - the first was Ellsberg - but I was the first person under the Obama administration charged with espionage. Many others have followed, and yet as I look back I'm right now, other ironically enough, other than Edward Snowden, who's "free in Russia" - how ironic is that, okay? All of the others that have been charged or indicted with espionage are either in jail, okay; or are facing jail, okay; or have been charged with espionage and are facing many, many years in prison.
It's an extraordinary development, and I mean it's not just those charged with espionage; it's all these other related areas ... of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, like Jeremy Hammond, where you flight political activism disclosures of illegal and criminal activity on the part of the government and secret corporations in league with the government and ends up being criminalized, you're being thrown into prison in his case and only pled out because the pressures are enormous.
I know, I was facing many, many decades in prison and part of the leverage that they had is like, "Well, if you plead out Mr Drake maybe you'll only spend 15 years in prison or maybe 12 years or maybe we'll be able to work it where it's only five years." I mean there's a whole history behind how far the government went to destroy me, but I'm here speaking to you as a free human being. Do you know what it means to be able to keep your freedom after the government's spent so many years trying to take that away from you. They mean more to me now than ever.
LS: Whose interests are ultimately served by secret intelligence agencies in the West?
TD: Well, it's become less and less the citizens and has become more and more a protectorate for the powers that be.
LS: Yes, but didn't they set up, for example, the CIA in the first place?
TD: See, I've said this and a lot of people look at me funny and even take exception to it. The real history is, you have to context this crucial to understanding all this. The CIA which, you know its predecessor was OSS, you know the Office of Strategic Services born during World War II.
LS: Which was placed, by the way, in the financial district of New York.
TD: That's correct, that should tell you something and, of course, those links go back even further. I mean the culpability of financial interests are at the center of so much in terms of even modern history. I think modern history, if you go back even into the 19th century, you know it's an extraordinary history to understand it but most people will give it short shift because so much of it is shrouded in mystery and secrecy. Yes, isn't it interesting that the OSS was centered in the financial district. That should tell you something; but that gave them enormous cover for the operations they want to engage in.
Well, out of World War II came the National Security Act in 1947, which created the CIA, it created the Department of Defense, it created the Air Force. Five years later it was followed by a secret directive, still secret to this day, signed by Truman creating the NSA, and so that whole apparatus so closely aligned with the heart and center of power within the United States but politically and financially and economically over time gives that enormous, enormous power and with great power comes great responsibility.
The problem is, when you enshroud it, wrap it in secrecy, then the opportunities for enormous irresponsibility are there to do. They are there to take place, and that's precisely what's happened, and it's serving private interests - it's clearly not serving public interest.
LS: Sometimes one of the frightening thoughts that I have is that America needs to take a look in the mirror and see that they have become pretty much Nazi-like and what they fought. They have fought, and they [have] become pretty similar to the enemy.
TD: Actually, unfortunately, there's a number of people who actually admire the Nazis. They admire that enormous power, and it's like, well because we're America - I mean, this is the thing that really, really concerns me, that somehow because we're America we have special protection. We are exceptional but that allows us the license, it gives, it grants us license to engage in the very practices the Nuremberg Trials put in stark relief.
I've spoken with one of the lead lawyers on the Nuremberg Trials. It was an extraordinary conversation over many hours. I just never imagined that here we are engaging in the equivalent. Somehow, you know, I'm just following orders. That's the very thing that I took exception to, was orders. Somehow the orders took priority over rule of law, and then rule of law got corrupted by passing and enabling that legislation, like article 48 [which allowed the president, under certain circumstances, to take emergency measures without the prior consent of the Reichstag] in the Weimar Republic.
The history here is really unnerving, and that somehow we're immune to that. We're not immune at all. We're not and you're already seeing a police state, a virtual. I've called, I've said a digital fence already surrounds us.
We saw the physical wall of East Germany to keep people in, right? Well, we already have a digital fence that tracks us. I'll just give you an example of this, Lars: When I go home I often go home from the beltway around Washington DC. I head north on Route 29 and the main intersection just north of the beltway. When I first started going that way I would just see all these, what would appear to be random flashes at the intersection. It dawned on me shortly thereafter that was no random flashes. Those are simply cameras taking pictures of license plates, 24/7 365, and there's many, many of those cameras set-up all around DC.
What does it mean to be tracked and monitored like this? I mean ultimately it's about control, about social control. It's about knowing where people are anytime you want to know about them. I don't want to live in that kind of a society because it has an extraordinary corrosive effect, yet the technology is benign.
It's always about what do you use it for, right? Those cameras aren't there to detect red-light violators, you know running red lights. It's simply to take pictures of license plates. I didn't opt in, but I guess the license plate is public because I can actually see it on the car. So if I'm not in public then its fair game, but what am I doing with that information? See it comes back to what do I do with the information, and if we don't stand up for, you know, people - a vacuum is created. If you don't stand up for your sovereign rights, there are those who will take them away from you and they love having power.
It's a pathological condition when you actually derive pleasure from having power over others. You will use power. You will turn, you will manipulate. You will turn them into subjects and objects of your attention. That's not life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That means you're now subject to and subject of somebody else and the last time I checked in human history it's a form of slavery or indentured servant or a serf.
LS: A lot of talk is going on in your country about socialism. I think this is a very phony discussion, because wouldn't you agree with me that it's time to smell the coffee and talk about fascism in the US?
TD: Actually, that's the word ... Anytime I used it, when I use the word "fascism" people cringe. They don't even want to go there. Even when the overwhelming evidence says that we actually have a virtual fascist government that has extraordinary ties to Wall Street, the financial banking sector and large major corporations on a truly extraordinary scale. It's a full argument, the "socialism" thing is faux. There are people I know in my extended networks that are progressives; unfortunately they're not stopping to smell the coffee because the face of fascism is - it's not a pleasant thing to look at because that means you're looking in the mirror.
LS: And you [the United States] have fought the fascists in World War II.
TD: Yes, we sure did. I mean, my own father fought in World War II, and I see one of the silver linings of my own case - I did plead out to a minor misdemeanor for exceeding authorized use for a computer. I had community service for 240 hours. I interviewed almost 50 veterans of World War II to the present day and the World War II veterans feared for the future of our republic. They do, and they said, "Geez, everything I fought against in World War II, was it in vain?" Some of them are actually asking that question that we're becoming the very thing that we fought against.
LS: Well, it was said that the next time fascism comes, it comes in the form of anti-fascism. [4]
TD: Usually it does and wrapped in the robes of moral rectitude and patriotism.
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