ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

[aaron]

Re: More time on exams

How common is this?

The exam is supposed to measure what you can do. Almost anyone would get a higher score by getting more time. So why does being diagnosed with a disease justify more time?

Perhaps they thought to give parents an option besides drugs?

Regardless, you can justify it on a societal level. If some people need extra help to be productive citizens, then $$ wise it is a good idea. - Unless these kids will be professional test takers later in life, I say give 'em all the help they can get.

[shiny!]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

cause or effect? or correlated common outcome of an unspecified 3rd element?

I don't know. That's an excellent question. But having had an extremely disturbing personal experience with an SSRI, I distrust the safety of these drugs more than I used to.

I took Zoloft from 1997 to 2002 with only minor side effects- weight gain, mostly. Got better, stopped taking it and have done quite well without it, until my husband was killed. Been struggling with major depression/PTSD since then. Supplements weren't helping enough so I finally asked the doctor for an anti-depressant. She prescribed Celexa.

Felt nothing the first two days. Felt AMAZING the third day. But on the fourth day while quietly typing at work a switch flipped in my head. Literally between one breath and the next I suddenly wanted to kill myself. Desired it. Craved it! Lusted for the actual act of suicide like a junkie lusts for a fix. A voice in my head was telling me how wonderful it would be to kill myself. I felt like dying would be more fun than all the chocolate, sex and million-dollar-lottery-tickets in the world!

I have never had thoughts or feelings like that in my entire life. Not even in the worst days of my worst depression have I ever wanted to kill myself. Those were not thoughts that my brain ever came up with on its own.

Fortunately I wasn't alone when it happened. I told a friend what was going on; he helped me through the next few hours until it subsided enough for me to feel safe. He and I both thought it was the drug. I got on the internet and read about thousands of people experiencing suicidal ideation a short time after starting Celexa. With that information I rode it out, but I was shaken. Still am. Had I been home alone when this happened I don't think I would be alive now.

Thank God that while I was at work around other people, the drug only made me want to kill myself, not them. But what if I was a person with less self-control, less self-awareness and that drug had made me crave murder as badly as it made me crave suicide?

A snapping experience is overwhelming. That drug did it to me with no warning.

I will never take another SSRI under any circumstances. My depression has never been as scary or dangerous as that SSRI.

[Polish_Silver]

Re: More time on exams

Perhaps they thought to give parents an option besides drugs?

Regardless, you can justify it on a societal level. If some people need extra help to be productive citizens, then $$ wise it is a good idea. - Unless these kids will be professional test takers later in life, I say give 'em all the help they can get.

Okay, so if you give everyone enough time to make a good grade, what does the test result mean?

If they need more resources, how about hiring a tutor for them? That would actually increase learning, not just inflate a test score.

[jk]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

I don't know. That's an excellent question. But having had an extremely disturbing personal experience with an SSRI, I distrust the safety of these drugs more than I used to.

I took Zoloft from 1997 to 2002 with only minor side effects- weight gain, mostly. Got better, stopped taking it and have done quite well without it, until my husband was killed. Been struggling with major depression/PTSD since then. Supplements weren't helping enough so I finally asked the doctor for an anti-depressant. She prescribed Celexa.

Felt nothing the first two days. Felt AMAZING the third day. But on the fourth day while quietly typing at work a switch flipped in my head. Literally between one breath and the next I suddenly wanted to kill myself. Desired it. Craved it! Lusted for the actual act of suicide like a junkie lusts for a fix. A voice in my head was telling me how wonderful it would be to kill myself. I felt like dying would be more fun than all the chocolate, sex and million-dollar-lottery-tickets in the world!

I have never had thoughts or feelings like that in my entire life. Not even in the worst days of my worst depression have I ever wanted to kill myself. Those were not thoughts that my brain ever came up with on its own.

Fortunately I wasn't alone when it happened. I told a friend what was going on; he helped me through the next few hours until it subsided enough for me to feel safe. He and I both thought it was the drug. I got on the internet and read about thousands of people experiencing suicidal ideation a short time after starting Celexa. With that information I rode it out, but I was shaken. Still am. Had I been home alone when this happened I don't think I would be alive now.

Thank God that while I was at work around other people, the drug only made me want to kill myself, not them. But what if I was a person with less self-control, less self-awareness and that drug had made me crave murder as badly as it made me crave suicide?

A snapping experience is overwhelming. That drug did it to me with no warning.

I will never take another SSRI under any circumstances. My depression has never been as scary or dangerous as that SSRI.

such reactions are usually indicative of a need for a mood stabilizer instead of or in addition to an antidepressant. on rare occasions people WILL develop suicidality unrelated to need for [or response to] a stabilizer. i've seen every med have a reverse effect on SOMEONE. we are very complicated homeostatic systems, and sometimes the balances are on the other side of the common.

[vt]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

Since he was in therapy for years, he may have been on anti
depressant drugs.

These type of drugs are suspected in leading to violent behavior and suicidal tendencies:

http://www.drugwatch.com/ssri/suicide/

This is exactly what happened in the California murders of six.

We thus should look at the effect of these drugs not just guns as the cause (knives were used in half of the murders). You can make the case that guns need to be kept out of the hands of those with mental problems. But we should importantly look at anti depressant drugs that lead to violent as well as suicidal behaviors.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

I have a friend who is 30 and pops Adderall like it is mentos. He takes at least 3 pills a day because he tells his doctor that he cannot function at work.

It is also very popular on college campuses. It is basically a form of cheating....

[shiny!]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

such reactions are usually indicative of a need for a mood stabilizer instead of or in addition to an antidepressant. on rare occasions people WILL develop suicidality unrelated to need for [or response to] a stabilizer. i've seen every med have a reverse effect on SOMEONE. we are very complicated homeostatic systems, and sometimes the balances are on the other side of the common.

I appreciate your response, jk. Since I'm most definitely not bipolar, borderline or schizo-anything I'd say I fall into the "rare occasion" category. And since approx. 1-in-10 Americans are taking antidepressants, mostly SSRIs, "rare" cases of sudden suicidality or homicidality could be affecting a lot of people.

I recently learned that SSRIs were originally prescribed in low doses in combination with l-tryptophan. Prescribed in this manner they were very effective and side effects were practically non-existant. Two years after Prozac was brought on the market, a toxic batch of l-tryptophan from Japan was imported into the U.S. Over 1500 people were sickened by it and about 40 people died. Tryptophan was banned in the U.S. for over a decade. SSRIs began to be prescribed in much higher doses. Side effects became common. Doctors were no longer trained to prescribe SSRIs with tryptophan. Using them in that way has been largely forgotten.

Now, patients are told to never, ever take tryptophan or it's metabolized form, 5-HTP, if they're also taking an SSRI. But in Europe these things are still prescribed together. Also in Europe, St. John's Wort outsells SSRIs.

I think I don't metabolize tryptophan well because it didn't do a thing for me. Read some studies from Germany that showed a combination of 100 mg 5-HTP combined with 300 mg Perika St. John's Wort taken 3x daily raised serotonin levels better than an SSRI alone, with no side effects. I tried this; it works very well for me.

In addition I've discovered that I have a methylation cycle block: I can't totally metabolize folate or its synthetic form, folic acid. A folate deficiency can cause major depression. So I tried it in its methylated form, L-methylfolate. This is the same thing as Deplin. My depression has practically disappeared. Deplin is prescribed for people who don't respond well to SSRIs alone:

Folate deficiency linked to Major Depressive Disorder

Since it's estimated that 40-50% of people have the MTHFR gene defect that prevents them from metabolizing folate into it's usable, methylated form, perhaps screening depressed people for the MTHFR gene defect should be done before before prescribing SSRIs?

I still feel grief over losing my husband, but in my book some depression under these circumstances is normal. It would be abnormal if I didn't feel grief under these circumstances. But with the supplements I'm taking now, it's bearable, not overwhelming.

[jk]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

grief, depressed mood, and clinical depression are different, but overlapping, concepts. i sometimes wish clinical depression was still called melancholia so it wouldn't be confused with the everyday emotion of sadness, grief, upset, whatever. also some people with bipolar depression are not depressed in the everyday sense of the word: they just feel blah and sleep 15 hours/day.

[flintlock]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

We are still in the dark ages of understanding the brain and it's chemistry. Perhaps we should quit f%&king with it until we know more. At least in all but the most extreme cases. One day we will look back on this like we look back on bloodletting now. Good intentions but like surgery with a blunt ax. And how much does the prescribing of anti depressants merely mask the real problem? Man was not meant to live indoors all day, under fluorescent lighting, eating garbage processed foods, with the only activity the walk from the car to the sofa. Not to mention the crazy complexity of life today. But nobody wants to address that. There's not money in it.

[Polish_Silver]

jumping to pharma

I appreciate your response, jk. Since I'm most definitely not bipolar, borderline or schizo-anything I'd say I fall into the "rare occasion" category. And since approx. 1-in-10 Americans are taking antidepressants, mostly SSRIs, "rare" cases of sudden suicidality or homicidality could be affecting a lot of people.



Since it's estimated that 40-50% of people have the MTHFR gene defect that prevents them from metabolizing folate into it's usable, methylated form, perhaps screening depressed people for the MTHFR gene defect should be done before before prescribing SSRIs?

I still feel grief over losing my husband, but in my book some depression under these circumstances is normal. It would be abnormal if I didn't feel grief under these circumstances. But with the supplements I'm taking now, it's bearable, not overwhelming.

Very interesting posts, shiny. I've read that people in hunter-gatherer (or close knit agricultural) societies almost never suffer from depression or anxiety, because their personal relelationships are so strong. There was example of this on CBS? a week ago. An anthropologist went to South america, fell in love with a native and marrier her. They lived in the US for 5 years, then she went back, abandoning her young children. After 15 years of resenting his mother, a son visited her and totally understood her decision. Now that gets you thinking.

Also a good point that we ought to look for metabolic issues before jumping to synthetic drugs.

I take 5 HTP nightly to help me sleep. Am I slowly killing myself with that stuff?

[jk]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

We are still in the dark ages of understanding the brain and it's chemistry. Perhaps we should quit f%&king with it until we know more. At least in all but the most extreme cases. One day we will look back on this like we look back on bloodletting now. Good intentions but like surgery with a blunt ax. And how much does the prescribing of anti depressants merely mask the real problem? Man was not meant to live indoors all day, under fluorescent lighting, eating garbage processed foods, with the only activity the walk from the car to the sofa. Not to mention the crazy complexity of life today. But nobody wants to address that. There's not money in it.

i pretty much agree with the second half of this. the incidence of depression and anxiety disorders keeps going up, while the age of onset keeps going down. our society and technology have evolved much more quickly than our biological equipment ever could. we are designed for simpler lives, so like any system being overloaded there is damage at points of vulnerability.

as for knowing what we're doing- we have some science here, double blind placebo controlled studies, to guide us. we don't know what we're treating, exactly, since we don't understand the pathophysiology of these illnesses. but otoh i believe digitalis, a heart medicine derived from the foxglove plant, was used for a great many years to good effect without anyone understanding what it was doing or what, exactly, it was treating. similarly, aspirin - acetylsalicylic acid - is related to salicylates found in willow bark, which i believe was discovered 2500 years ago to help with pain. it was only a few decades ago that we figured out what it was doing

[Woodsman]

Re: jumping to pharma

Very interesting posts, shiny. I've read that people in hunter-gatherer (or close knit agricultural) societies almost never suffer from depression or anxiety, because their personal relelationships are so strong...

"Archaeologists studying the rise of farming have reconstructed a crucial stage at which we made the worst mistake in human history. Forced to choose between limiting population or trying to increase food production, we chose the latter and ended up with starvation, warfare, and tyranny."

Excerpted from "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race" by Jared Diamond

[vinoveri]

Re: jumping to pharma

"Archaeologists studying the rise of farming have reconstructed a crucial stage at which we made the worst mistake in human history. Forced to choose between limiting population or trying to increase food production, we chose the latter and ended up with starvation, warfare, and tyranny."

Excerpted from "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race" by Jared Diamond

Made it to the 3rd sentence:
"From biology we learned that we weren't specially created by God but evolved along with millions of other species"

Such an assertion is not only false but reveals a haughty smugness masquerading as open minded humility IMO - fully consistent with the audacity of title.

[Woodsman]

Re: jumping to pharma

Made it to the 3rd sentence:
"From biology we learned that we weren't specially created by God but evolved along with millions of other species"

Such an assertion is not only false but reveals a haughty smugness masquerading as open minded humility IMO - fully consistent with the audacity of title.

Awesome. Hope it made your day!

[Raz]

Re: jumping to pharma

Made it to the 3rd sentence:
"From biology we learned that we weren't specially created by God but evolved along with millions of other species"

Such an assertion is not only false but reveals a haughty smugness masquerading as open minded humility IMO - fully consistent with the audacity of title.

+1.