ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Lack of play!

Great article... thanks! Summerhill still makes good reading, too.

I've seen some of these overprotected kids. 14 year-old girls who have never even been allowed to walk two blocks to the convenience store alone. Their mother is so convinced there's a predator on every street corner, she makes her girls stay in the house after school. Consequently they're scared of everything and everyone.

I've noticed many things like that over the last 20 years. Is the summerhill book long?

[DSpencer]

Re: catholic church and modernity

Vinoveri and Woodsman,

I'm not the thought police. I'm not trying to make some deep implication about what is or isn't religious debate. I was just suggesting that we use the concept of threads to organize our discussions. It's backfired completely, so apologies to all. Carry on.

[shiny!]

Re: Lack of play!

I've noticed many things like that over the last 20 years. Is the summerhill book long?

The edition I linked to is a 304 pg paperback. It's an engaging, thought-provoking read. I think you would like it.

Summerhill was an educational experiment based on the premise that children learn best when they're treated with respect and not micromanaged or shoved into conformity by adults. Summerhill's philosophy was "Liberty but not License." Children at Summerhill had complete liberty to play and learn in their own self-directed way, but not license to infringe on the liberty of others.

I rank Summerhill right up there with John Gatto's "Dumbing Us Down" as a must-read book on education.

[Raz]

Re: jumping to pharma

Pleased you liked it too, Raz. Is there a conflict between Orthodoxy and evolution or the scientific method, generally? I didn't think so, but I admit little familiarity with Orthodoxy in America. The Catholic tradition as I know it does not take a literalist approach to understanding Genesis.

Neither does the Orthodox. There are two creation narratives in Genesis and the Church has never understood either of them as literal or concatenated. Even a rank Fundamentalist should be able to conclude that "evening and morning" as one day couldn't possibly mean twenty-four hours, since the sun in our solar system didn't come into existence until the fourth day.

Catholic theology is much more refined and nuanced on the matter. Considering the unbroken chain of apostolic succession since Peter and the fact that the Church fathers have had more than 2000 years to contemplate and understand the faith, it should come as no surprise that they were prepared to encounter the challenge of modernity. Fundamentalist organizations and their faith communities, particularly here in America, did not even really get a handle on their theology until sometime around 1910 ...?

Being raised in a radical protestant culture where the Bible was a "paper pope" has its drawbacks - but it also has some positives.
There was a strong emphasis on charity and moral behavior and for that I'm thankful; yet the view of an angry God who is just waiting for an excuse to condemn humans to outer darkness has warped many a mind against the true revelation of God as understood and taught by the Eastern Church. Before I became Orthodox what I thought to be knowledge of God was in reality more philosophical than experiential.

Orthodoxy is conciliar, not monarchial. When a problem can't be dealt with on a diocesan level a synod of three or more bishops is called to render a decision. Only when a topic disturbs the spiritual peace of the whole Church is there a need for an Ecumenical Council. Whenever one of those meets and renders a decision - it's final. The Church has only recognized Seven and they all took place before the ninth century.

As I understand it, the Roman Catholic faith has no problem with evolution as science. What it rejects is the view of evolution as dispensing with the knowledge of God as Creator of All or that one can't understand the material nature of human biology as being distinct (not separate) from the spiritual reality of the Soul. I'm not a theologian or a scientist, so I know I tread on thin ice here and in this one instance I am happy to defer to the authority of biologists and the Church.

The Orthodox would agree with the part I highlighted in green. But there is also another problem with the present scientific consensus on evolution, and certainly that as taught by Jarod Diamond: the entry of death into the world.

When I encounter more politically oriented Catholics riding their anti-evolution hobby horses, I remind them that "The Origin of Species" was never placed on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.

I have little use for politics these days since I no longer believe there to be an honest debate concerning the county's problems.
When the Psalmist said "All men are liars" he must have had the RepubliCrats in mind.

You can find different opinions among many Orthodox theologians. Alexandre Kalomiros, who wrote The River of Fire is a compatibilist, meaning that he believes the theory of evolution to be one explanation for the origin of all the creatures of higher sentience, including man. In other words, Dr. Kalomiros doesn't reject it outright.

Most of the Orthodox theologians I've read believe the theory as presently held in the scientific community of the Western World to be incompatible with the patristic consensus - as to the origin of life itself, not to mention man. I lean toward this view - with one exception, but a discussion of this would be very involved.
I'll have to try and allocate some time in order to do so.

What does Orthodoxy teach on evolution and science?

Well, as I said above, this will require quite a lot of typing and posting of documents, but this belongs in Rant and Rave -
- not here - even if we weren't hijacking a thread!

I'll try to begin a thread in order to answer this for you, in Rant-n-Rave, of course.
I'll PM you when I've begun.

[aaron]

Re: Lack of play!

Great article... thanks! Summerhill still makes good reading, too.

I've seen some of these overprotected kids. 14 year-old girls who have never even been allowed to walk two blocks to the convenience store alone. Their mother is so convinced there's a predator on every street corner, she makes her girls stay in the house after school. Consequently they're scared of everything and everyone.

It is really tough for us to see our little girls grow up. Be kind.

If you watch tv (like 95% of Americans), all you will see is bad stuff. If a kid is hurt somewhere in the U.S., it is part of national news. Daily. My wife is convinced there are evil-doers around every corner. She scares me even though my head tells me statistics negate it all.

[aaron]

Re: jumping to pharma

I take 5 HTP nightly to help me sleep. Am I slowly killing myself with that stuff?

Rhetorical, I know, but brings up something I have thought about (others' thoughts, no doubt)

How do you know 5-HTP is safe? I know Prozac is safe because it has been used by hundreds of thousands of people who have been tracked for side-effects, for over 20 years. There are thousands of research papers by real scientists. We know the exact #of people who have had X problem with Prozac over the years. There have billions of dollars in research, etc.

5-HTP? I do not know. It is a health supplement and "natural", but nobody has actually done research into possible side-effects. It may be harmless, but it may be harmful.

Without getting out of my chair to check the old bottle, 5-HTP deals with tryptophan, serotonin, and something else. From bio-chemistry I remember what could possibly happen is that increased 5-HTP leads to more serotonin which leads to reduced sensitivity to serotonin (fewer receptors), which makes you more susceptible to a deep, damaging depression later in life. Is this possible? I have no idea. But it could. There is no research. No follow-up studies. I am sure it is not even asked at the hospital or by doctors ..."you are about to kill yourself, have you ever taken 5-htp?"

That question has been asked about Prozac et al. I always figured there was an increase in suicide because the time it takes for the drugs to be effective is 6 weeks. When you have reached that point where you seek professional help for the first time, you may be extremely desperate. That 6 weeks might be seem like an eternity. Shiny's story reminds me that there could be other reasons for suicidal thoughts; it was a very scary story.

Now, on the front of every label, doctors and patients are warned that SSRIs can increase suicidal tendencies for a small number of people. I wonder how many suicides there are for 5-htp? We will never know.

[aaron]

Re: jumping to pharma

"Archaeologists studying the rise of farming have reconstructed a crucial stage at which we made the worst mistake in human history. Forced to choose between limiting population or trying to increase food production, we chose the latter and ended up with starvation, warfare, and tyranny."

I think that is what the story of the Garden of Eden was all about as well. God provided all food. When we decided to take from the tree of knowledge, we learned how to grow our own. It has really been bad for our metabolism and society and power structures.

I do not understand why concepts like this were not figured out thousands of years ago. Oh wait, they were. No need for science back then. Observation worked just as well. They did not have to dig deep into the rainforests to find that one tribe of happy aboriginals. They were everywhere to be found.

So, yes, we can build our towers of Babel, but we are fundamentally unhappy since we changed the pact we had with Nature/God/Earth. We cannot get it back, either. They understood that as well.

I did not follow the link, but the above makes sense to me and could be turned into a book, I am sure.

[aaron]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

As a child I was told I was hyperactive. Talked too much in class and could not keep still. I am almost 70 and 2 years ago, my Mom told my wife that she gave me medicine for it when I was young! This would have been in the late 40s and early 50s. My mom does not remember what it was, but we assume it was phenobarbital, but are not really sure.

I just got the same revelation in the past year as well. I was given them for crying too much. It was quite a shock to learn. My mom blames the Canadian healthcare system. I looked up the dates, and I was born around the time doctors in the U.S. stopped prescribing barbiturates. So, she may have a point.


Who knows, perhaps I could have run a site as good as EJ's? Maybe I would have been the next Einstein? The world will never know because I was drugged for several years as a toddler and my brain was disturbed forever.

[Woodsman]

Re: jumping to pharma

...I'll try to begin a thread in order to answer this for you, in Rant-n-Rave, of course. I'll PM you when I've begun.

That was an excellent summary, Raz. And like all good things makes one hunger for more. I'm grateful to you.

[jk]

Re: ADHD: Ramping Up Sales, Adults Next

How do you know this?

it's definitional. in the absence of direct knowledge, let alone measurement, of the underlying pathophysiology, the diagnoses are all syndromes, which is to say that they are constellations of symptoms which, when taken together, define the diagnosis. evidence to age 6 is part of the definition of add/adhd. of course it may in practice be difficult to find that evidence, but the clearcut onset of attentional symptoms later in life excludes add/adhd as the cause of those attentional problems.

[LazyBoy]

Re: Lack of play!

One thing we are doing wrong is not letting children play:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/...-alone/358631/


Every minute they are under adult supervision. Guess what happens: anxiety is up, creativity is down.

Like all of them will be professional ballerinas and soccer players.

Very nice article. I wonder how this over-protected parenting plays into the tendency for Millennials to 'delay rights of passage' -- moving out, etc. Maybe it's not all caused by the economy.

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Lack of play: millenial malaise

Very nice article. I wonder how this over-protected parenting plays into the tendency for Millennials to 'delay rights of passage' -- moving out, etc. Maybe it's not all caused by the economy.

I think the Millennials are going to be set back for life by the lack of proper childhood. I think the "fizzle out" of Occupy was partly due to their "inclusiveness" mindset, which prevented choosing leaders and focusing on goals. If every one is equally important, than every idea is equally important, and the stupid ideas take the resources away from the sound ones. The last time I heard from occupy, they were protesting an oil pipe line!

In the Atlantic article, Rosin speculates that children who grew up in the 70's were deeply affected by the high divorce rate and both parents working. They were somewhat neglected so they want to avoid the opposite for their children. The two parent families also meant that the female neighborhood peer group got weaker, leading to paranoia about the world outside the home. TV fed this by repeating stories about lost children. Children being kidnapped is quite rare, except by the divorced parents who got the short end of the custody settlement. Something like that must be right. People are insanely paranoid--won't let 8th graders walk to school.
When I was in kindergarten if your mother showed up after the third day, you were a sissy.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Lack of play: millenial malaise

Polish_Silver, a caution - The people of "Occupy" chose the Anarchist model, therefore no leadership. This was similar to the wave of protests at IMF, World Bank, G7 and GATT (am I missing any) meetings that have taken place over the last 15 years or so. No doubt, veterans of those events took part in Occupy events. I don't know that one can so easily call this a generational choice for people of Occupy.

[don]

Re: Lack of play: millenial malaise

Too broad a brush overlooks the not-too-distant past, when hippies segued from VW Bugs to Beamers.

[Polish_Silver]

hippies

Too broad a brush overlooks the not-too-distant past, when hippies segued from VW Bugs to Beamers.

But those hippes were always able to articulate self interest, identify opponents, unify around common goals, take effective action. The radicals of the 1960's differed in many ways from Occupy.

I'd agree that Occupy had an anarchist dimension to it. It's that very lack of structure--unwillingness to choose specific goals, methods and leaders, that doomed it. You can disrupt at WTO meeting for a week. But what long term goal does that accomplish?