PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

[vt]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Look at the segment on Stalin's treatment of the Ukraine. This is why this is posted here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyUu-8nbd58&feature=youtu.be

[Woodsman]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Awesome. Now all you need to do is find someone here who's promoted Communism in the thread and you've done your good deed for the day!

http://www.dengedenge.com/2009/11/cold-war-vintage-ads/

[BadJuju]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

[vt]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Of course it is. But the reason for posting the video is the reference to what Stalin did to the Ukraine. Take a look at the film in the Ukraine segment which details the horror of starvation and death of 25% of the population. After all this thread is about the Ukraine, and why they justly fear Russia.

It is a great lesson of how totalitarian regimes treat humans. This applies to the Nazis as well as Russians, through the commies killed many fold what Hitler did.

[gwynedd1]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Of course it is. But the reason for posting the video is the reference to what Stalin did to the Ukraine. Take a look at the film in the Ukraine segment which details the horror of starvation and death of 25% of the population. After all this thread is about the Ukraine, and why they justly fear Russia.

It is a great lesson of how totalitarian regimes treat humans. This applies to the Nazis as well as Russians, through the commies killed many fold what Hitler did.

Why doesn't Russia justly fear Ukraine?
Why doesn't Kazakhstan fear Tajikistan?
Why doesn't Estonia fear Belarus?

The SOVIET UNION was not RUSSIA....any more than Scotland is English. In fact it it compatible to Scotland forming a coup to take the British empire. On the outside it might appear no different.

Now given that the lengthiest duration of the Soviet empire was with Ukrainian leadership one has to question this idea that the Soviets were "Russian."

http://www.willamette.edu/cla/classi...ninfo/002.html


2/3 of the Soviet leadership were not Russian. What makes people think Russians would destroy their own culture , burn orthodox churches? Why do you suppose Soviets were vehemently not nationalistic? Well since they were all the disaffected minorities of the Russian empire it makes perfect sense.


The Soviet Union was a coup and the collective minorities are as much Soviet as any Russian. Its little different than Seleucids becoming Parthians. What is even more shocking is to know that Rus were Swedes. Thus its the second time the Slavs culturally absorbed their conquerors and yet the pattern is unnoticed. The patter is also visible in China. The Soviet Union just eventually Russified once again. So again I am not sure why Russia becoming a subordinate province of its own lost empire , then being run but a sociopath Georgian with a long line of Ukrainian Soviet premiers makes Ukraine a captive of Russians? They were all "Soviets".

[gwynedd1]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

What is funny about communism is that it has all the problems of democracy and equality if one were to read real political philosophers of any merit like Montesquieu. In Latin America all we ever see is democracy leading to dictatorships for the same reason communism does. Its creates perfect equality and creates the social and legal justification to remove all hierarchy making it ripe for conquest by the few just like me and 2 other people could subjugate a 100 others so long as they never unified against us.

To blame communists is to blame the Mensheviks who were the real Marxists. You can blame them for being leaderless and equalist and easy pickings for elitism under the Bolsheviks who waned equality only long enough dispose of their rivals.


Again if you want freedom then confederate states resistant to outside forces but separate within is the only path were human societies can scale without injustice running amok.

[Chris Coles]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Again if you want freedom then confederate states resistant to outside forces but separate within is the only path were human societies can scale without injustice running amok.

That, I will agree with.

My own education really began when I read a book about the desperate times endured by the Ukraine when they were effectively starved into submission during the 1930's. All I can add is the hope that the farmers have learnt the lessons of history and know how to resist being subjugated again.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

That, I will agree with.

My own education really began when I read a book about the desperate times endured by the Ukraine when they were effectively starved into submission during the 1930's. All I can add is the hope that the farmers have learnt the lessons of history and know how to resist being subjugated again.

Particularly the post WWII Ukrainian Insurgent Army UPA history.

Extremely nasty and little known in the west, but there was a whole lot of carnage for a few years post WWII.

Hopefully recent developments like global connectivity and the disintermediation of some state functions/power will help them find a different path to success.

[Chris Coles]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Particularly the post WWII Ukrainian Insurgent Army UPA history.

Extremely nasty and little known in the west, but there was a whole lot of carnage for a few years post WWII.

Hopefully recent developments like global connectivity and the disintermediation of some state functions/power will help them find a different path to success.

Can you please provide a link; something I certainly did not know about.

[don]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Partisan warfare during WW2 reflected the divergent Ukrainian goals. Ukrainian nationalist partisans. Jewish partisans. Russian partisans. They didn't all necessarily get along . . .

[Polish_Silver]

Russia's Changes

Russian propaganda taking its cues from Western propaganda.

. . .

The saddest part of this entire episode is more suffering for Ukrainians. The 20th century was a horrific, non-stop nightmare for Ukraine and I'm astounded that there's anyone left in the place who could leave voluntarily.

Putin's first life was head of the KGB. What kind of person is head of the KGB?

And what does it say about a nations political environment that such a person has very high approval ratings,
and remains in control perpetually?

Russia is not a police state, but girl bands are put in jail for shaming the leadership. Journalists are killed on a regular basis.


What has not changed: Russians want an authoritarian government which bullies foreign states.

They care more about this than good roads, schools, or public health.

[flintlock]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

I don't know. Just pointing out that these type claims have been going on since recorded history. The claim of self determination is simply a ruse to explain the fact that these decisions are usually decided by who has the most tanks, planes, and artillery. Anyone think Putin is doing this for the good of Crimea?This merely shows what a thin, impotent veneer modern international law is. Things will continue to be solved like they were in 1066. Check and mate.

[Woodsman]

Re: Russia's Changes

Putin's first life was head of the KGB. What kind of person is head of the KGB?

No, he wasn't. Putin never rose above a KGB lieutenant colonel. His station was Dresden where he worked on turning students into KGB illegals and where he worked under the cover of a translator and interpreter. His biggest known job was to get some US Army sergeant to sell him an unclassified manual. He "quit" (scare quotes because at a certain level no one ever really gets out) as a result of the 20 August 1991 Coup against Gorby. It wasn't until 1998 that Yeltsin appointed him the head of the FSB, a post he held for a year.

And what does it say about a nations political environment that such a person has very high approval ratings,
and remains in control perpetually?

What it says about Russia is that they have a centuries old history of autocratic leaders and precious little experience with democracy and representative government.

Turn that same eye on the political environment you're most familiar with and ask yourself what does a captured regulatory apparatus, an imperial presidency, an unresponsive legislature, and intelligence agencies that spy on congress and store every one of its citizen's communications and transactions say about us? We have precious little ground to stand on as critics of other political systems.

Russia is not a police state, but girl bands are put in jail for shaming the leadership. Journalists are killed on a regular basis.

Sure it's not and we're a democracy where citizens rule. Russia is a kleptocratic and lawless police state run for the benefit of a tiny elite. But as more and more have come to learn over the past decade, that hardly makes it unique among nations.

What has not changed: Russians want an authoritarian government which bullies foreign states.

Really? How many countries has Russia invaded since 1991? How many have we? Some people in Russia might desire that, sure. Lots of folks in our camp feel precisely the same way. All that proves is that idiots transcend national and ideological boundaries.

They care more about this than good roads, schools, or public health.

That's a pretty ignorant statement, PS. You know better.

[don]

Re: Russia's Changes

Random musings . . .


President H. W. Bush was head of the CIA before he was president.






When was the last time a first-world power thwarted the US on a military playground?

[gwynedd1]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

That, I will agree with.

My own education really began when I read a book about the desperate times endured by the Ukraine when they were effectively starved into submission during the 1930's. All I can add is the hope that the farmers have learnt the lessons of history and know how to resist being subjugated again.

Lets just say I know a Russian family from the Urals whose foundation was started by being exiled from the east. The first generation started was from the liquidation of the family farm. The parents soon dying soon after word left a young girl who was caught stealing bread..as one might when one's farm is confiscated. So she was exiled as punishment.

The reason why Ukraine seemed suffer more was in direct relation to the value of the farm land and the large economic rents that existed. This not only attracts those that seek wealth but also attracts enmity since the vacuum left by it creates rivals. Thus the Kulacs were liquidated by Stalin to gain it is a resource and to prevent a rival.

They have already failed to learn that lesson. The Ukrainians are losing their land as we speak.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/8dde5...44feabdc0.html