PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

[don]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process…

George Orwell, on Doublethink

[Chris Coles]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

Mr. Putin needs to face some deeply unpalatable facts; Viktor Yanukovych has not been ousted from office and there was no “storming of the Presidential Palace”, instead; he ran away. It was not fear for his life that drove his decision; it was fear of the revelation of his past actions; which were not just the ordering of his thugs to murder the protesting people; more than likely, that he had been systematically stealing from his nation’s coffers.

Viktor Yanukovych is a common crook who ran off with the loot.

Mr. Putin’s interest in Viktor Yanukovych has nothing to do with his flight from his official duties and everything to do with the money that Viktor Yanukovych has stolen from Ukraine; money that Putin needs to pay his own bills; most likely for munitions sent to Syria.

Harbouring a known international crook is against the law in any nation Mr Putin; yours included.

The international court in The Hague should immediately order the seizure of the monies stolen; at the very least, it should put all the transactions into legal limbo until a court can resolve the issues. That will place a real; non military spanner in the works. If they were Russian banks, then they should be stopped from carrying out any transactions outside of Russia.

Monetary trade sanctions are the answer here.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

I think Itulipers may appreciate this as an oligarch aware community.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...hs/495411.html


I have been long aware of the Czar peasant alliance against the Boyars. More or less the commoners often looked on the Czar as their protector. The West has never understood how a resource rich country with lagging(but not absent) technology drifts twards authoritarianism, because these are not robber baron oligarchies where technology is used as a weapon( at least more so anyway. Oil and rail are still very resource intense ). These are resource control oligarchies. I am not sure if Putin is his own man or if he is in reality a puppet of even more powerful oligarcs.


Sure make much more sense about Ukraine than all the so called nationalistic interests of the common folk.

[lektrode]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

I think Itulipers may appreciate this as an oligarch aware community.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...hs/495411.html


I have been long aware of the Czar peasant alliance against the Boyars. More or less the commoners often looked on the Czar as their protector. The West has never understood how a resource rich country with lagging(but not absent) technology drifts twards authoritarianism, because these are not robber baron oligarchies where technology is used as a weapon( at least more so anyway. Oil and rail are still very resource intense ). These are resource control oligarchies. I am not sure if Putin is his own man or if he is in reality a puppet of even more powerful oligarcs.


Sure make much more sense about Ukraine than all the so called nationalistic interests of the common folk.

as metalman likes to say: FOLLOW THE MONEY

[dcarrigg]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

as metalman likes to say: FOLLOW THE MONEY

Yup. It's an interesting cast of characters. Imagine, going from communism to 50 people owning 85% of the country and driving the rest of the economy into the dirt. Sometimes you just can't catch a break.

[lektrode]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

Yup. It's an interesting cast of characters. Imagine, going from communism to 50 people owning 85% of the country and driving the rest of the economy into the dirt. Sometimes you just can't catch a break.

the only question i have at the moment: but can they get any toilet paper?

[Chris Coles]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

Here in the UK this evening, the BBC is reporting that the Ukraine soldiers based in their barracks in Crimea have been given an ultimatum; sign over to us before 2:00 am UK time or we attack; the ultimatum coming from the Russian forces. They also report that the general command in Moscow has refuted the order.

It seems to me we have the potential for a classic and disastrous misunderstanding; where the initial orders were,: Go on in, we turn a blind eye and say we know nothing. You get on and move in on them.

But what now happens is, while we can believe that Moscow would not want the local troops to attack; the locals feel they are doing exactly what the central command wants and a local commander, having got his blood up, loses control and actually orders the attack on the basis that he already has been told everything is OK. (You carry on, we turn a blind eye), .............. until it all gets out of hand.

It may be something as stupidly simple that starts the next war.

I must add, here today on the lunchtime news, we have seen the loyal troops of Ukraine, (whose Admiral commander had turned over to the Russians at the first chance), all standing to attention singing their national anthem and refusing to turn over. A really wonderful; "Stuff You" to the Admiral.

[EJ]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

the only question i have at the moment: but can they get any toilet paper?

Out of curiosity we dug up old research on incomes and income inequality in the USSR in the 1980s and compared it to current data.

Under Communism the USSR achieved equal distribution of poverty in the 1980s.




Under oligarchic capitalism by 2013 the Russian economy produced 30% more unequal distribution of half as much poverty.

[Woodsman]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

Out of curiosity we dug up old research on incomes and income inequality in the USSR in the 1980s and compared it to current data.

Under Communism the USSR achieved equal distribution of poverty in the 1980s.




Under oligarchic capitalism by 2013 the Russian economy produced 30% more unequal distribution of half as much poverty.

EJ, what kind of conclusions can we draw from this, considering during the Soviet period many staple items were "free" at the point of service, including housing, medical care, transportation, education, child care, food etc?

[rlskaggs2003]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

EJ, what kind of conclusions can we draw from this, considering during the Soviet period many staple items were "free" at the point of service, including housing, medical care, transportation, education, child care, food etc?

That they are moving up the charts and catching up to the US?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2172rank.html

[flintlock]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Can't help but wonder what the average Joe in Ukraine really wants.

Doesn't seem to be much anyone can do about it. Putin will carve off what he wants and go on about things. Not really the same thing but shades of Hitler late 1930s in the way he is acting. He seems to believe he can do whatever he wants and I am inclined to believe him. The world today is just as impotent to stop him as they were in the 1930s. Now whether they should is another subject. As far as I know he has no plans to exterminate anyone.

[charliebrown]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

Yes but what about purchasing power parity? I just talked with some refugees from myanmar last week. They only make $800 equivalent dollars a year, but $1 buys a week of groceries.

[Woodsman]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Can't help but wonder what the average Joe in Ukraine really wants.

Doesn't seem to be much anyone can do about it. Putin will carve off what he wants and go on about things. Not really the same thing but shades of Hitler late 1930s in the way he is acting. He seems to believe he can do whatever he wants and I am inclined to believe him. The world today is just as impotent to stop him as they were in the 1930s. Now whether they should is another subject. As far as I know he has no plans to exterminate anyone.

President Camacho's cabinet gives him bad advice with the WWII analogies.

[EJ]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

EJ, what kind of conclusions can we draw from this, considering during the Soviet period many staple items were "free" at the point of service, including housing, medical care, transportation, education, child care, food etc?

Not really. I'll leave the broad conclusions up to you guys.

My only input is circumstantial.

For example, I once advised a Russian tech start-up run by two guys named, not surprisingly, Igor and Dimitri.

Igor's role as a stubborn co-founder of the start-up was a sideline. His day job was associate professor at NYU. In his youth he was a former tank commander in Russia. His brilliant and equally stubborn partner was based in Estonia. Stubbornness -- inability to listen -- was the reason why I soon quit the gig although I did very much like those boys.

On a trip to NYC Igor took me and my wife to the East Village KGB Bar at 85 E 4th St. We were treated to the usual Russian ex-pat rants about how awful the Soviet system was for ordinary citizens and how great the USA is, while at the the same time treated to sappy nostalgia for all things Russian.

Most memorably: "The USA is the Soviet worker's utopia. You can work hard and retain the fruits of your labor, but if you stumble the state is there with welfare to support you. The USSR got the second half right... and not so well at that. The food was awful. A utopia for the lazy. God help you if you were ambitious."

With all of its natural resources Russia could at least provide the standard of living to Russian citizens as Norway delivers. But Russia cannot. It is defective, stubbornly tragic. Like a neurotic that wears the symptoms of its past abuse as a badge of honor, Russia is unable to move on. It is mired in a goop of rancid nostalgia. Putin will not lead it out bit further in.

[GRG55]

Re: Hudson: Go West, Young Man!

...With all of its natural resources Russia could at least provide the standard of living to Russian citizens as Norway delivers. But Russia cannot. It is defective, stubbornly tragic. Like a neurotic that wears the symptoms of its past abuse as a badge of honor, Russia is unable to move on. It is mired in a goop of rancid nostalgia. Putin will not lead it out bit further in.

I lived in one of the Arab States of the Persian Gulf from 2000 to 2008. Worked there and parts of Arab North Africa. Also very familiar with India (lived there for a couple of years as a young student, among other things). Through all of that experience I thought I had a pretty good understanding of institutionalized corruption.

Then I spent much of 2012 in Kazakhstan, a former Soviet Union state, and also have a long time business associate who is involved with a mining venture in next door Kyrgystan, also a former Soviet Union state. The corruption in those places makes the Arabs and Indians look like amateurs.

There is no hope for Russia...it's every man for himself as it spirals into the cesspit of history...