PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

[BadJuju]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Well that didn't last long, did it...

PCR is a joke.

[VIT]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
Sometimes its amazing how many people are trying to explain things they have no idea about. Is it so impossible to believe that things can happen naturally without any grand plot. Was The French Revolution orchestrated by Great Britain, if it would happen today I bet people would say so.

[GRG55]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
Sometimes its amazing how many people are trying to explain things they have no idea about. Is it so impossible to believe that things can happen naturally without any grand plot. Was The French Revolution orchestrated by Great Britain, if it would happen today I bet people would say so.

Nah. If the French Revolution happened today I think we should still blame the Americans...

[BadJuju]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Nah. If the French Revolution happened today I think we should still blame the Americans...

I still blame the Americans. And myself for I am American. It is my greatest shame.

[vt]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

The .1% Russian puppet style:

"In the same vote passing Yanukovych’s powers to Turchynov, parliament also agreed to transfer ownership of Yanukovych’s sprawling residence in Kiev’s northern outskirts to the state.
Thousands of people visited it yesterday, with hundreds of cars thronging the entrance and people riding bikes and carrying children around the compound. Previously closed to visitors, it boasted a man-made lake as large as several football fields with a life-sized galleon and a zoo with deer, ostriches, peacocks and other animals. Next to a towering mansion, a garage housed antique cars, motorcycles and at least seven limousines, according to images on website Censor.net.
Boats, Hovercraft

Activists prevented people from entering the mansion. They recovered reams of documents that had been thrown into the pond and dried them in a building full of boats and a small hovercraft, according to images shown on Hromadske TV. The opening of the grounds dominated news broadcasts in Ukraine, where the average nominal wage is 3,619 hryvnia ($404) a month, according to December data from the national Statistics Office."

[vt]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Russia's worst nightmare:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...e-9146751.html

[don]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

The eastern half population of the Ukraine are predominantly Russians. This would facilitate a split, keeping the Black Sea naval base in Russia's hands. Will US/NATO forces respond to a Ukrainian call?

[Woodsman]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

The eastern half population of the Ukraine are predominantly Russians. This would facilitate a split, keeping the Black Sea naval base in Russia's hands. Will US/NATO forces respond to a Ukrainian call?

Not unless they want to start a Third World War. The best case is as you say a split; some amicable separation similar to the resolution of the former Czechoslovakia.

A brief survey of the history demonstrates the longstanding ties between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine has been formally aligned with Russia for more than 350 years following the signing of a treaty of unity between Ukrainian Cossaks and Muscovy in 1654 . And 800 years before that, we see the establishment of the Kievan Rus' which modern day Russians and Ukrainians both see as the genesis of their nation. And with the Russian annexation of the Crimean Khanate in 1783, the Russification of Ukraine is largely complete.

Upwards of 3.5 million Ukrainians fight alongside the Imperial Russian Army during the First World War. Following the Russian Revolution a relatively brief war ensues with Polish and west Ukrainian forces facing off against central and southern Ukrainian forces and the Bolshevik Red Army. By 1921, the war is over and the Sovs yield a small piece of western Ukraine to Poland in exchange for Poland's recognition of Soviet authority over central and southern Ukraine. Stalin employs famine to pacify the remaining elements of opposition in Ukraine and the Soviets exercise absolute control over the area for 70 years until 1991 when 80% of Ukrainians vote for independence. With its second most powerful republic gone, the USSR ceases to exist less than a month after the vote.

Ukraine suffers an economic depression following independence and despite electing a western leaning president who enjoyed thumbing his nose at Moscow, the Ukrainians reverse themselves in the next election and vote in a pro-Russian leader who served for two terms and presided over the signing of a Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership with Russia. Fast forward to the Orange Revolution and the events of the day.

Long story short, Ukrainians have inseverable historical, cultural and economic ties to Russia. And the Russians continue to see Ukraine as de facto part of Russia, de jure independence notwithstanding. Russia will not give up Ukraine any more than we would give up the southwest to Mexico. Don't doubt for a moment that the Russians won't go to the mattresses for Ukraine.

[Master Shake]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Stalin employs famine to pacify the remaining elements of opposition in Ukraine and the Soviets exercise absolute control over the area for 70 years until 1991

You toss that off so casually. Not hard to understand why Ukraine may not want to have anything to do with Russia, even though it's no longer the USSR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

[Woodsman]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

You toss that off so casually. Not hard to understand why Ukraine may not want to have anything to do with Russia, even though it's no longer the USSR.

Point taken, but please understand that I'm not tossing anything off casually. Give me a little credit here, shakes. I'm surveying 1200 years of history in a couple hundred words.

Anyone unaware of the horrors perpetrated on the Ukrainians by Stalin and the NKVD can watch this:

Or, they can read the Black Book.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

The Ukrainian diaspora was in the latter half of the 19th century. Huge waves left for central Russia, Siberia, Canada, and the US. Land was being stolen and consolidated, and the choice was simple…leave or starve. My wife’s grandfather made it to the US. Letters from relatives who stayed describe eating bark well before the 1930’s.

(He never learned to read or write, signed his name with an X, and had 11 kids, 10 of them girls.)

[vt]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Leftist tyrants don't care about human life, only the goals of the revolution.

Thank God for the 2nd amendment. It's not just for protection from criminals; it's primarily for protection against tyranny.

[GRG55]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

The eastern half population of the Ukraine are predominantly Russians. This would facilitate a split, keeping the Black Sea naval base in Russia's hands. Will US/NATO forces respond to a Ukrainian call?

I doubt it. The "best" outcome for the USA is ongoing chaos in Ukraine. It becomes a Russian problem and, perhaps to a degree, a European (read German) problem.

The more chaotic the rest of the world the more the USA appears a stable safe haven for global capital. We shouldn't underestimate how much this has played into the USA's (reasonably deft!) handling of the "Arab Spring". How it plays the tensions in Asia now will also be interesting...

[lakedaemonian]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

I doubt it. The "best" outcome for the USA is ongoing chaos in Ukraine. It becomes a Russian problem and, perhaps to a degree, a European (read German) problem.

The more chaotic the rest of the world the more the USA appears a stable safe haven for global capital. We shouldn't underestimate how much this has played into the USA's (reasonably deft!) handling of the "Arab Spring". How it plays the tensions in Asia now will also be interesting...

It sounds a bit like the old joke:

Two men are walking through a forest. Suddenly, they see a bear in the distance, running towards them. They turn and start running away. But then one of them stops, takes some running shoes from his bag, and starts putting them on.
“What are you doing?” says the other man. “Do you think you can outrun the bear with those on?”
“I don’t have to outrun the bear,” he says. “I just have to outrun you."

Maybe update the joke with an additional Nancy Kerrigan-like smack to the knee by a proxy.

[don]

Re: PC Roberts on the Ukrainian Question

Democracy Murdered By Protest
Ukraine Falls To Intrigue and violence

Paul Craig Roberts

Who’s in charge? Certainly not the bought-and-paid-for-moderates that Washington and the EU hoped to install as the new government of Ukraine. The agreement that the Washington and EU supported opposition concluded with President Yanukovich to end the crisis did not last an hour. Even the former boxing champion, Vitaly Klitschko, who was riding high as an opposition leader until a few hours ago has been booed by the rioters and shoved aside. The newly appointed president by what is perhaps an irrelevant parliament, Oleksandr Turchynov, has no support base among those who overthrew the government. As the BBC reports, “like all of the mainstream opposition politicians, Mr. Turchynov is not entirely trusted or respected by the protesters in Kiev’s Independence Square.”

In western Ukraine the only organized and armed force is the ultra-nationalist Right Sector. From the way this group’s leaders speak, they assume that they are in charge. One of the group’s leaders, Aleksandr Muzychko, has pledged to fight against “Jews and Russians until I die.” Asserting the Right Sector’s authority over the situation, Muzychko declared that now that the democratically elected government has been overthrown, “there will be order and discipline” or “Right Sector squads will shoot the bastards on the spot.”

The bastards are any protesters who dare to protest the Right Sector’s control.

Muzychko declared, “The next president of Ukraine will be from Right Sector.”

Another Right Sector leader, Dmitry Yarosh, declared: “the Right Sector will not lay down its arms.” He declared the deal made between the opposition and the President to be “unacceptable” and demanded the liquidation of President Yanukovich’s political party.

The Right Sector’s roots go back to the Ukrainians who fought for Adolf Hitler against the Soviet Union during World War 2. It was the Right Sector that introduced armed fighters and turned the tide of the protests in Kiev from peaceful protests in favor of joining the EU to violent attacks on police with the view of overthrowing the democratically elected government, which the Right Sector succeeded in doing.

The Right Sector did not overthrow the Ukraine government in order to deliver it into the hands of the Washington and EU paid “opposition.”

There is a tendency to discount the Right Sector as a small fringe group, but the Right Sector not only took control of the protests away from the Western supported moderates, as moderate leaders themselves admitted, but also the Right Sector has enough public support to destroy the national monument to the Red Army soldiers who died liberating Ukraine from Nazi Germany.

Unlike the US orchestrated toppling of the stature of Saddam Hussein, which was a PR event for the presstitutes in which Iraqis themselves were not involved, Ukrainian rightists’ destruction of the monument commemorating the Red Army’s liberation of the Ukraine had public support. If the Right Sector hates Russians for defeating the Nazis, the Right Sector also hates the US, France, and England for the same reason. The Right Sector is an unlikely political party to take Ukraine into the EU.

The Russian parts of Ukraine clearly understand that the Right Sector’s destruction of the monument commemorating the stand of the Red Army against the German troops is a threat against the Russian population of Ukraine. Provincial governments in eastern and southern Ukraine that formerly were part of Russia are organizing militias against the ultra-nationalist threat unleashed by Washington’s stupidity and incompetence and by the naive and gullible Kiev protesters.

Having interfered in Ukraine’s internal affairs and lost control, Washington is now issuing ultimatums to Russia not to interfere in Ukraine. Does the idiot Susan Rice, Obama’s neoconservative National Security Advisor, think Putin is going to pay any attention to her ultimatums or to any instruction from a government so militarily incompetent that it was unable to successfully occupy Baghdad after 8 years or to defeat a few thousand lightly armed Taliban after 12 years? In only took a few hours for Russian troops to destroy the American and Israeli trained and armed Georgian army that Washington sent to invade South Ossetia.

Where does Obama find morons like Susan Rice and Victoria Nuland? These two belong in a kindergarten for mentally handicapped children, not in the government of a superpower where their ignorance and arrogance can start World War 3.

Ukraine is far more important to Russia than it is to the US or EU. If the situation in Ukraine spirals out of control and right-wing extremists seize control, Russian intervention is certain. The arrogant and stupid Obama regime has carelessly and recklessly created a direct strategic threat to the existence of Russia.

According to the Moscow Times, this is what a senior Russian official has to say: “If Ukraine breaks apart, it will trigger a war.” Ukraine “will lose Crimera first,” because Russia “will go in just as we did in Georgia.” Another Russian official said: “ We will not allow Europe and the US to take Ukraine from us. The states of the former Soviet Union, we are one family. They think Russia is still as weak as in the early 1990s but we are not.”

The Ukrainian right-wing is in a stronger position than Washington’s paid Ukrainian puppets, essentially weak and irrelevant persons who sold out their country for Washington’s money. The Right Sector is organized. It is armed. It is indigenous. It is not dependent on money funneled in from Washington and EU financed NGOs. It has an ideology, and it is focused. The Right Sector doesn’t have to pay its protesters to take to the streets like Washington had to do.

Most importantly, well-meaning but stupid protesters--especially the Kiev students--and an Ukrainian parliament playing to the protesters destroyed Ukrainian democracy. The opposition controlled parliament removed an elected president from office without an election, an obvious illegal and undemocratic action. The opposition controlled parliament issued illegal arrest warrants for members of the president’s government. The opposition controlled parliament illegally released criminals from prison. As the opposition has created a regime of illegality in place of law and constitutional procedures, the field is wide open for the Right Sector. Expect everything the opposition did to Yanukovich to be done to them by the Right Sector. By their own illegal and unconstitutional actions, the opposition has set the precedent for their own demise.

Just as the February 1917 revolution against the Russian Tsar set the stage for the October 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, surprising the stupid “reformers,” the overthrow of the Ukrainian political order has set the stage for the Right Sector. We can only hope that the Right Sector blows its chance.

The American media is a useless news source. It serves as a Ministry for Government Lies. The corrupt propagandists are portraying the undemocratic removal of Yanukovich as a victory for freedom and democracy. When it begins to leak out that everything has gone wrong, the presstitutes will blame it all on Russia and Putin. The Western media is a plague upon humanity.

Americans have no idea that the neoconservative regime of the White House Fool is leading them into a Great Power Confrontation that could end in destruction of life on earth.

Ironic, isn’t it. America’s “first black president,” the person liberals thought would restore justice, morality, and reason to Western civilization, is instead now positioned as the person who will have to accept humiliating defeat or risk the destruction of life on earth.

Sources:

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/

http://rt.com/news/war-monument-toppled-ukraine-351/

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-acting-pr...anukovich-339/

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-oppositio...vich-coup-273/

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-pledges-to-fight-for-crimea-if-ukraine-splits/495034.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26312008

http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-sv...or-riot-police