Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

[lektrode]

this is an interesting development -

getting into why i advise offgrid/PV clients that its cheaper/easier to run their base loads on battery power (DC) as much as possible, vs converting PV output to AC via an inverter, using 120VAC as little as possible, thereby leaving the inverter OFF as much as possible - which can typically save enough to run a refrig (a small one anyway)

Bloom Energy Brings AC/DC (Debate) to Japan Stage

U.S. fuel cell firm Bloom Energy Corp. and Japanese Internet and telecom group SoftBank Corp.9984.TO -1.66% started up their first power generation system in Japan under a joint venture earlier this week.

But the modest, 200-kilowatt system installed to supply 75% of the needs of a 21-story highrise in the southern city of Fukuoka is just the first step toward an industry-changing goal for the two companies’ big-thinking chief executives.

K.R. Sridhar, founder and CEO of Bloom Energy, made clear his ambitions go beyond powering individual buildings during his comments on Monday. Not only does he want to distribute power in Japan, he said he wants someday to distribute direct current power, as opposed to the existing power industry standard of alternating current.

The Fukuoka contract is the Silicon Valley-based startup’s first move outside the U.S. and a toehold in Asia, where carbon dioxide emissions have more than doubled in the 20 years to 2010. Bloom Energy sees a need to cut those levels and therefore a market for its emissions-cutting systems.

But Japan could also be the place where Bloom Energy, already a supplier of 100 megawatts per hour of power to companies such as Google Inc. and eBay Inc., does away with the inefficiency of supplying alternating current power into the direct current power used by many contemporary devices, by generating direct current power at the outset, Mr. Sridhar said.

“I would like to see Japan be the first place where we produce DC power,” Mr. Sridhar told reporters in Fukuoka on Monday. That would help avoid the 10% or so of power that is lost when electricity is transformed from AC into DC, he said. Bloom Energy’s systems can generate power in either AC or DC.

It’s a goal that would dovetail nicely with SoftBank’s recent interest in energy and in transforming the way power is distributed in post-Fukushima Japan.

The two companies said they hope to sell 30,000 kilowatts-per-hour of power generation capacity over the next three years in Japan.

Ever since Thomas Edison lost out in his battle to promote direct current power to his rival George Westinghouse’s alternating current, AC has been the power industry standard. One of the principal reasons for AC’s dominance is its ease of transmission over long distances from power stations to people’s homes.

But the world is becoming increasingly direct current-powered. Digital devices from PCs to smartphones to flat TVs use direct current power. That’s why the power cords you use to plug your devices into wall sockets have converters to turn the alternating current into direct current.

Solar panels, LED lights, and electric vehicles also use direct current power. Data centers that operate Internet networks need DC power for their computers.

Each time AC is transformed into DC, some power is lost. So in a DC-users world, there’s an argument for generating direct current electricity in the first place to avoid this power loss.

And for resource-poor Japan, wasted energy is particularly significant.

The complete shutdown of Japan’s nuclear energy plants following the 2011 Fukushima disaster has translated into soaring fuel bills. While the country is racing to develop alternative sources of power, companies and individuals are looking at ways to lower their reliance on the grid.

Bloom Energy’s fuel cells offer a stable source of power that generates fewer carbon dioxide emissions for about ¥28 per kilowatt hour. That’s still high, compared with electricity generated at a gas-powered power station, which costs about ¥11 per kilowatt hour. But Bloom’s carbon dioxide emissions are about half those produced by Japanese gas companies supplying the grid.

Officials at local unit Bloom Energy Japan said costs could soon fall to around ¥23 per kilowatt hour on planned imports of shale gas from the U.S. and Canada. Bloom Energy’s solid oxide fuel cells convert fuels, ranging from diesel and natural gas to biofuels, into electricity by mixing them with oxygen through a chemical process.

Among other signs of interest in DC power in Japan, Nippon Telegraph & Telephone Corp. is already using DC-powered data centers. Japanese municipalities are showing interest in both Bloom Energy’s fuel cells and DC power, Bloom Energy officials said.

At its heart, the AC/DC debate is about how power generation and transmission can be decentralized in Japan, and how companies and factories can lower their reliance on the grid.

In teaming up with Bloom Energy, SoftBank Chief Executive Masayoshi Son envisions a free market of electric power, in which companies and individuals buy and sell power in a seamless, real-time grid.

“It’s wrong that we should be reliant on massive power generators that can cause havoc when an accident occurs,” said Mr. Son, who has embraced energy issues since the Fukushima nuclear disaster, launching a series of large-scale solar power projects. “Power should be decentralized,” he said.

yep - decentralized is the key - is also why i was anti-nuke in the '70s - its also why i'm pro-nuke now, but with much smaller/dispersed plants (the only REAL alternative to Pie-In-The-Sky schemes)

am also wondren if this is the reason why PLUG is all-of-a-sudden plug'n along again???
(now at $0.73 UP 2.45% 29nov and 600% since mar/13 ?? - tho i'm still off 98% on my first chunk, maybe time to get back in - comments ????)

[dcarrigg]

Re: Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

this is an interesting development -

getting into why i advise offgrid/PV clients that its cheaper/easier to run their base loads on battery power (DC) as much as possible, vs converting PV output to AC via an inverter, using 120VAC as little as possible, thereby leaving the inverter OFF as much as possible - which can typically save enough to run a refrig (a small one anyway)

Bloom Energy Brings AC/DC (Debate) to Japan Stage



yep - decentralized is the key - is also why i was anti-nuke in the '70s - its also why i'm pro-nuke now, but with much smaller/dispersed plants (the only REAL alternative to Pie-In-The-Sky schemes)

am also wondren if this is the reason why PLUG is all-of-a-sudden plug'n along again???
(now at $0.73 UP 2.45% 29nov and 600% since mar/13 ?? - tho i'm still off 98% on my first chunk, maybe time to get back in - comments ????)

Hard to know with Plug. These things are always tough to time. Ballard, who serves plug, is showing stronger growth on the engineering side than the materials moving one. And now they're making a bus with BAE that's supposed to cruse around Ithica for the Cornell boys. If BAE drags them along into the deep DoD pool of guns and butter, I could see some possibility for movement there. Tough with the sequester on, though. And sometimes their numbers are hard to believe. They're sitting in my hometown, and they spun off the underlying materials division to a private firm earlier this year. They spin it as focusing on growth in the telecom and material handling (plug) sectors, calling the materials division 'noncore.' Seems to me maybe the whole supply chain's surviving off grants and cash sales to private concerns picking off immediately profitable bits right now.

Of course, you won't get the feel for that by simply looking at BLDP's sheets:


Long story short is I don't know. I saw some of the prettiest little BMWs flying around the Munich plant on hydrogen when I was there over a decade ago. And Ballard just got a big boost earlier this year by cracking a deal with the Wolfsburg boys. But then Dr. Krebs comes out and drops a bomb on hydrogen. The grand canyon's between proof of concept / r&d and commercialization. And I ain't no Evel Knievel. Someone smarter, luckier, or with more inside knowledge than I would have to give advice on how to play this one.

[lektrode]

Re: Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

NICE analysis/comment dc - much appreciated!
will getback more on this one later - got a wx window goin and need to get some outside stuff done b4 it closes.

[Fiat Currency]

Re: Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

Hard to know with Plug. These things are always tough to time. Ballard, who serves plug, is showing stronger growth on the engineering side than the materials moving one. And now they're making a bus with BAE that's supposed to cruse around Ithica for the Cornell boys ... The grand canyon's between proof of concept / r&d and commercialization.

Maybe this will help ...

Brian Hutchinson: Whistler’s hydrogen bus boondoggle



British Columbia is unlikely to meet its ambitious greenhouse gas (GHG) emission targets for 2020, says the Business Council of B.C.. The province, it notes, is already far behind in its 33% GHG reduction plan, announced five years ago. Seven years hence, the province may be “at basically the same emissions level as in 2005,” says the Business Council, a conservative group that’s independent of government.

This should not surprise. Governments in B.C. — particularly under former premier Gordon Campbell — have made extravagant claims about environmental protection, pollution controls and other green initiatives. Few have brought any measurable benefit.

One scheme that flopped is a five-year, $89.5 million transit pilot project in Whistler; it saw 20 hydrogen-powered transit buses delivered to the famed mountain resort town just ahead of the 2010 Olympic Winter Games. BC Transit, the Crown corporation that coordinates delivery of transit services in the province, called it “the largest hydrogen fuel cell bus fleet and largest fuelling station in the world.”

Well, those were heady times, with then-premier Gordon Campbell and then-California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger speaking boldly of massive pollution cuts, escalating carbon taxes, and a “hydrogen highway” that would run from San Diego to Whistler. Perhaps beyond.

No one talks about the “hydrogen highway” anymore. Few people understood what it even meant, so no big loss. B.C. taxpayers were likely spared some bucks.

Now Whistler’s vaunted, one-of-a-kind bus program has broken down, thanks to mechanical failures and related costs which were somehow not foreseen. BC Transit says it can’t keep dumping cash into the project and there’s little chance it will be renewed next year, when the last cent of allocated cash is spent.

In 2009, BC Transit took possession of the 20 fancy buses, all kitted out with finicky hydrogen power plants, and handed them over to a grateful Whistler, which had to pay $16.8 million, its share of the pilot project’s capital and operating costs. The federal government forked over $48 million, while the province pledged to cover the annual $1.8 million for “incremental costs.”

The nuttiest part of the deal? All of the eco-friendly hydrogen required to make the buses operate was trucked across Canada, from a production plant in Quebec. Every ten days or so. No one makes commercial quantities of hydrogen in Western Canada; plans to create local production facilities never amounted to anything.

It hasn’t escaped notice that Whistler’s hydrogen-powered buses — which, at $2-million apiece, cost four times the amount of regular diesel buses, and twice the amount of proven, hybrid powered models — are also prone to breakdown. According to BC Transit, each Whistler hydrogen bus requires one type of repair or another after 3,000 kilometres of service, on average. The corporation’s diesel buses require maintenance every 5,000 kilometres. Big difference.

In September, a Whistler newspaper published other troubling figures: “Maintenance costs for a diesel bus average 64 cents per kilometre, and $1 for a hydrogen bus,” notedThe Whistler Question, “with those costs expected to increase to $2.28 per kilometre by the end of the five year program as component and part warranties expire.”

As the article surmised, the end is near. The pilot project has been a bust. But some officials have not come to terms with that. “Depending on what the fleet is replaced with, it’s a little premature to comment on whether I’ll be disappointed in seeing the hydrogen buses leave or not,” Whistler mayor Nancy Wilhelm-Morden told the newspaper.

Who won’t be sad to see them go? Local transit workers and the union representing them. They’ve been griping about the Whistler pilot project ever since it received the government’s green light. Unifor, the massive private sector union that formed earlier this year and now represents transit workers in B.C., has just released more bus documents, obtained after members filed a provincial Freedom of Information Act request. They demonstrate again how inefficient the Whistler fleet has been, right from the start.

The technology doesn’t work that well in cold weather conditions; Whistler has quite a lot of that. Freezing water tanks make basic tasks–such as starting an engine–difficult, sometimes impossible. “The average fuel range is below the amount specified in the contract and is worse during the colder winter months, maintenance costs and time are three times higher than diesel buses, and the fuel costs/consumption is three times that of a diesel bus,” reads a BC Transit document prepared in September 2012 and just recently obtained by Unifor Local 333 in Victoria.

The province’s hydrogen bus bomb has caused at least one pleasant aftershock: Big labour is lamenting inefficiencies created by an ill-considered, tax-funded green initiative. All that bus money is wasted, laments Ben Williams, president of Unifor Local 333 in Victoria. “The hydrogen buses don’t run properly in the cold Whistler environment,” he said Tuesday. “You’d think someone would have considered that, before any cash was spent.”

[lektrode]

Re: Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

Maybe this will help ...

if you like distractions maybe.... but...

something IS happnin -

almost dont wanna even type this at the moment, since the buggah just popped ANOTHER 50% - so far, on the day - bouncing off 1.96 just a little while ago?!!!



again the hesitation just cost me, and if cynicism had calories, i'd be a fat guy - but would appear that air liquide pumping 12mil into em, with profits expected by q2/14 is pluggin em and lightin em up - eh dc?

damn - and it only took 12years to energize...

[Fox]

Re: Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

umm, just like to remind everyone that with Treasuries rising, housing crumbling, and Taper once again talking things are looking more down, then up.

Just saying. ;P

But anyways back on topic. DC is definitely great but it's local only. So if microgen becomes the word of the day, then yes, wiring appliances for DC has a lot of advantages over AC.

However DC doesn't transmit well at all, so totally inappropriate for a grid.

And then there becomes an issue of manufactures supporting two types of power. Not sure if there is a cost/benefit for that extra 10% power.

That being said, Ontario's main power utility just announced an 8% rate increase every year for 5 years. I suspect the ridiculously generous subsidy to PV farms has a lot to do with it. What is it called when the "subsidy" given is 3X more than the cost anyways?

In any case, the value of saving energy is going up these days. So maybe that 10% is something to fight over. ;P

[lektrode]

Re: Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

umm, just like to remind everyone that with Treasuries rising, housing crumbling, and Taper once again talking things are looking more down, then up.

Just saying. ;P....
.....
In any case, the value of saving energy is going up these days. So maybe that 10% is something to fight over. ;P

yep - it definitely IS worth fighting over in some areas - offgrid for one, boats/cruising yachts for another, both of which involve spending fairly big chunks of bux to achieve the goals (since one doesnt head out into the great wide open, a couple 1000 miles offshore and NOT worry about 10% energy waste, as ya might not make it to the other side if something should go wrong)

and looks like in the data center arena, as well? - where it would make lot of $ense to run the show on straight-DC power, seeing as thats what makes the chipsets do their tricks, eh fox?

but in any event, looks like PLUG will be UP again today - on top of yesterdays action of appx 70mil share turnover

taint very often that i pick a mover like this one, that much i can tell ya with fair certainty

and dont it just figure??
after watching PLUG for years, go steadily down - my orig 500shares being 1for10 split to 50, losing 98%+ of my investment and intending on hangin on to em til The End/go down with the ship, as it were - take my phreakin eye off the ball for a couple of days - after starting this thread - just as the q3 'earnings' conf call put out GOOD news for a BIG change (after missing the air liquide announcement back in the spring - that alone would've had me double down - at that point $0.11/share )???

oh well - at least it appears i'll have another shot at em - got in yest at 1.61

when i have more time, also have a story - personal anecdote stuff - hoping we can get dcarrigg to pipe up some more - on this one, too.

[Fox]

Re: Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

oops, somewhere I forgot this thread started with fuel cells. And we're discussing the value of 10% improved efficiency?

If Fuel cells at least ran directly off of Natural gas, then sure, we have something to talk about (until nat gas hits 30cents per cubic meter that is). Until than, discussing efficiency and fuel cells is kind of silly.

10 year treasury yields heading to 3%. Time to short everything. Including Greenie pipe dreams XD

oh, btw, most things on a boat are DC. And if you are running the items that are not DC out in the middle of the ocean, such as microwave, air conditioner and TVs, you are not a person that worries about 10% wasted electricity. ;)

[dropthatcash]

Re: Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

Maybe this will help ...

Seems the list of government funded cash burning is as endless as the foolish politicians that fund them and the Pollyanna voters that keep believing their claims.

[lektrode]

Re: Edison vs Westinghouse redux? AC vs DC debate in Japan

oops, somewhere I forgot this thread started with fuel cells. And we're discussing the value of 10% improved efficiency?

If Fuel cells at least ran directly off of Natural gas, then sure, we have something to talk about (until nat gas hits 30cents per cubic meter that is). Until than, discussing efficiency and fuel cells is kind of silly.

well.. it wasnt the efficiency of fuel cells that caught me eye - but the efficiency of using straight-DC power in places like data centers - just happened to note that same outfit is also into fuelcells

and was wondren if that was part of the reason PLUG suddenly started arcing UP for a change

10 year treasury yields heading to 3%. Time to short everything. Including Greenie pipe dreams XD

while things are likely getting to the point of that being correct, i'm not going to argue the merits of that - but....

it would appear that - this time 'its different' ;)

at least PLUG's customer base seems to think so - they've developed a niche in the forklift market- and are apparently developing fuelcel drives for mobile refrig apps

oh, btw, most things on a boat are DC. And if you are running the items that are not DC out in the middle of the ocean, such as microwave, air conditioner and TVs, you are not a person that worries about 10% wasted electricity. ;)

well, maybe not the 100ft/up bracket - but typing as a guy who bills 75bux/hour (or at least used-to, before the 'hope for change' /ZIRPland crowd took over) putting batts on boats and design/build/service electrical/refrig systems on em - i can tell ya that the 40-60ft bracket most certainly does - at least when not plugged-in/dockside...

just sayin...