People no longer care.........

[photon555]

Re: People no longer care.........

I really enjoyed reading this thread. The wisdom and knowledge of itulipers teaches me something every day I come here.

The search for happiness takes people to strange places. The best advice for skeptics is found in a passage in Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes is a strange book. It is written largely from the POV of the skeptic, as revealed by the repetition of the the phrases; "under heaven, under the sun," and "chasing the wind." The futility of earthly existence without a knowledge of God is it's theme. Solomon fell away from faith in God and consciously set himself to find happiness and meaning in earthly things. After years of trying everything "under the sun" he determined; "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity."

But for the determined skeptic who refuses to believe in God this passage is the best advice for a chance at earthy happiness, or at least diversion for a time:

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest. 11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. 12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare, even so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. 13 I have also seen wisdom under the sun on this wise, and it seemed great unto me:

Ecclesiastes 9: 10-13 ASV

As for myself, without belief in God, faith in Jesus, and the comfort of the Holy Spirit, I would see no reason to stick around, since every earthly endeavor is pointless on a rather short time scale.

As the professor said to his student who interrupted him after office hours, "Don't bother me when I'm contemplating the futility of existence, its the only thing that gives my life meaning and purpose."

Happy Holidays!

[jk]

Re: People no longer care.........

the race may not be to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.

i live in a probabilistic world, without certainties to guide me, without an extrinsically supplied value system, and i do my best to find my way.

i think of value choices as kind of impedance matched to the problems they address.

one day - i hope in the far, far future - the human species will become extinct- how could it not? but that knowledge makes me care no less about myself and my loved ones in the here and now and for the immediate future. in a less intense and personal way the same applies to the rest of the world, both human and not.

while you play the game monopoly you have to act as if the funny money and hotels and such matter, which they do within the context of the game. and if you are going to be alive, your life must matter.

[vinoveri]

Re: People no longer care.........

the race may not be to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.

OTOH, one can follow Pascal and wager on eternity

i live in a probabilistic world, without certainties to guide me, without an extrinsically supplied value system, and i do my best to find my way.

i think of value choices as kind of impedance matched to the problems they address.

Great metaphor. I've never been able to make this type of approach work universally in my own life; self-interest and recognition of personal ignorance always seems to get in my way of concluding that I've made the "best" choice. I sought out objective norms, e.g., natural law, which provides me more comfort in decision making

one day - i hope in the far, far future - the human species will become extinct- how could it not? but that knowledge makes me care no less about myself and my loved ones in the here and now and for the immediate future. in a less intense and personal way the same applies to the rest of the world, both human and not.

while you play the game monopoly you have to act as if the funny money and hotels and such matter, which they do within the context of the game. and if you are going to be alive, your life must matter

.

great analogy, and it's precisely this rational that I personally could not accept and which lead me to seek and ultimately come to believe in a power beyond that which the material universe appears to present; one's life does matter, but not because I will it to matter, but because of our inherent nature. Ego cogito sum is the foundational error that led here IMO.

Of course I could be deluded (although I firmly believe not), but perhaps that is your point? One's life does matter and we all get there one way or another.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: People no longer care.........

tangent...

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...-really-exist/

[jk]

Re: People no longer care.........

OTOH, one can follow Pascal and wager on eternity

i think pascal's wager only works as a believer's apology to rationalists. i am skeptical of anyone's ability to will or force belief in something of which they are not otherwise convinced,

Great metaphor. I've never been able to make this type of approach work universally in my own life; self-interest and recognition of personal ignorance always seems to get in my way of concluding that I've made the "best" choice. I sought out objective norms, e.g., natural law, which provides me more comfort in decision making

i think there are better and richer lives and worse impoverished lives available to us, and the poverty of which i speak is not monetary. there's a famous line of tolstoy's which i think is completely and totally wrong: something to the effect that all happy families are the same but each unhappy family is unique in its unhappiness. it's the first line of anna karenina, and totally wrong by my direct observations. unhappy families, and unhappy individuals are characterized by the repetitiveness and predictability of their behaviors. they are stuck in ruts. further, it has been my observation that these behavior patterns can be categorized into a handful of types. otoh, i think healthy families and healthy individuals are more likely to come up with creative solutions to the dilemmas that they face. their patterns of behavior are richer and more varied, and thus less predictable. tolstoy was completely off base.

.

great analogy, and it's precisely this rational that I personally could not accept and which lead me to seek and ultimately come to believe in a power beyond that which the material universe appears to present; one's life does matter, but not because I will it to matter, but because of our inherent nature. Ego cogito sum is the foundational error that led here IMO.

Of course I could be deluded (although I firmly believe not), but perhaps that is your point? One's life does matter and we all get there one way or another.

the animals which didn't care about living or dying didn't leave as many progeny.

[jk]

Re: People no longer care.........

tangent...

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...-really-exist/

yes, it makes sense that the boundary between "life" and "non-life" is arbitrary. similarly, gregory bateson described the thermostat/heater/cooler system as an example of "mind."

[vinoveri]

Re: People no longer care.........

i think pascal's wager only works as a believer's apology to rationalists. i am skeptical of anyone's ability to will or force belief in something of which they are not otherwise convinced,

imo rationalism only leads to materialism if one excludes all but empirical knowledge e.g., experimentally validate scientific knowledge as validated by the senses, from consideration. Reason has led both ancients and some moderns to conclude the necessity (or at least likelihood) of an affective reality outside the scope of the senses.

i think there are better and richer lives and worse impoverished lives available to us, and the poverty of which i speak is not monetary. there's a famous line of tolstoy's which i think is completely and totally wrong: something to the effect that all happy families are the same but each unhappy family is unique in its unhappiness. it's the first line of anna karenina, and totally wrong by my direct observations. unhappy families, and unhappy individuals are characterized by the repetitiveness and predictability of their behaviors. they are stuck in ruts. further, it has been my observation that these behavior patterns can be categorized into a handful of types. otoh, i think healthy families and healthy individuals are more likely to come up with creative solutions to the dilemmas that they face. their patterns of behavior are richer and more varied, and thus less predictable. tolstoy was completely off base.

no doubt, that following rules that one doesn't understand may lead to unhappiness and destruction (and perhaps destruction even if one does understand). I'm reminded of the distinction once made between happiness and joy, whereas we all know what that feeling/sense of happiness is, joy is happiness in the possession of one's good, but of course there is the rub, who defines what "good" is. imo most people want/need to know/feel they are doing what they ought (or what is right) and are guided by their minds and emotions to do what serves their happiness; retrospective recognition of failure and mistakes lead to a cognitive dissonance which adaptative thinking can mitigate, but cannot undo past, only the perception of it.

the animals which didn't care about living or dying didn't leave as many progeny.

I would add, if one equates progeny with discipleship, not unreasonable given our inherently social nature as a species and some would argue a adaptive evolutionary trait, the exceptionals such as Socrates, Christ, Ghandi, MLK, etc who believed strongly in living but not as the greatest good are further examples

[Forrest]

Re: People no longer care.........

tangent...

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...-really-exist/

I do wish people wouldn't just presume a primordial soup, and handy dandy neucleotides happened to be around for such development!

[Forrest]

Re: People no longer care.........

yes, it makes sense that the boundary between "life" and "non-life" is arbitrary. similarly, gregory bateson described the thermostat/heater/cooler system as an example of "mind."

Response as opposed to awareness?

[jk]

Re: People no longer care.........

Response as opposed to awareness?

is there a difference? and if so, how would you tell?

[Forrest]

Re: People no longer care.........

is there a difference? and if so, how would you tell?

There is...plants respond to temperature, sunlight, sound (music and personal comments help them grow) however their kirlian aura's when photographed are stable indications of energy release, whereas creatures that respond to other stimuli than temperature, sunlight, sound have variable kirlian auras, presumably due to emotional/instinctual reaction to fight/flight factors.

[jk]

Re: People no longer care.........

There is...plants respond to temperature, sunlight, sound (music and personal comments help them grow) however their kirlian aura's when photographed are stable indications of energy release, whereas creatures that respond to other stimuli than temperature, sunlight, sound have variable kirlian auras, presumably due to emotional/instinctual reaction to fight/flight factors.

Results of scientific experiments published in 1976 involving Kirlian photography of living tissue (human finger tips) showed that most of the variations in corona discharge streamer length, density, curvature and color can be accounted for by the moisture content on the surface of and within the living tissue.^[27] .

sorry, i get off the train here. most talk of kirlian auras is pseudo-science, and i won't engage in further discussion of it.

for me, response implies awareness. by virtue of the feedback loops involved, plants indeed are part of larger systems which embody mind, using bateson's definition. rudimentary perhaps, but so be it.