Inequality much worse than most think

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The after-tax income gap between the top one-percent of the population and everyone else has tripled since 1979. This calculation includes transfer payments such as welfare/food stamps…CBO

CEO pay has gone from 170 times average worker to 370.

The pope is a Marxist.

[Woodsman]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The after-tax income gap between the top one-percent of the population and everyone else has tripled since 1979. This calculation includes transfer payments such as welfare/food stamps…CBO

CEO pay has gone from 170 times average worker to 370.

The pope is a Marxist.

Because Jesus was a communist? That's the logic, it seems.

When Jesus lived the power elites of the time hated and feared him. The Sanhedrin, Herod, and even the great Roman empire saw him as threatening the foundations of their power. And so they killed him.

Then after he was long dead Emperor Constantine domesticates the subversive Jesus and transforms him into a symbol of imperial power. Jesus the existential threat is thus tamed into an apolitical, pacifist preacher of good works whose only interest was in the world hereafter. Nice trick.

I think here Limbaugh and Palin are right, broken clock-style. For Catholics, Francis in his capacity as the Magisterium is the sole and unerring authority on matters of faith and this includes the teaching of Jesus and their ultimate meaning. So if Francis is a Marxist, then Jesus must be one too by that logic.

I don't believe he was a Marxist. Really, the ignorance of the [opposite of left] seems boundless here and I admit to enjoying myself watching them work through their confusion. I can't help to think that as much as they love Jesus, they love wealth and power just a teensy-weensy bit more. But surely the historical record demonstrates that Jesus was a revolutionary determined to upend the social order. No squishy liberal, Jesus wasn't content with mere income equality between the rich and the poor. He wanted the complete reversal of the social order, where the rich would be made poor and the poor would be made powerful.

"So the last shall be first, and the first last."
Mat. 20:16.

“How hard it will be for the wealthy to enter the Kingdom of God!”
Mark 10:22.

“Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are full, for you shall hunger. Woe to you laughing now, for soon you will mourn”
Luke 6:24

I expect if Jesus were to arrive tomorrow and begin teaching as he did 2000 years ago, the politicians, pundits and preachers who speak in his name today would soon call him a subversive, anti American commie. And then they would kill him.

But why are we still talking about this stuff? Haven't you heard? Income inequality is not now or ever important and any concern over it is a sign of immature emotional development.

[santafe2]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The pope is a Marxist.

I thought he was a Catholic......I have to start watching the news.

[Raz]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

... Really, the ignorance of the [opposite of left] seems boundless here and I admit to enjoying myself watching them work through their confusion. ...

I'm saddened to think that you actually claim to understand anything about Orthodox Christianity or Jesus Christ.

[Woodsman]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I'm saddened to think that you actually claim to understand anything about Orthodox Christianity or Jesus Christ.

Why Bishop Raz! So good to hear from you old friend. To what do I owe the honor of your sanctified attention? Mitre getting too heavy wear? Now don't tell me you've left your cloister just to correct little ole Woodsman.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I'm saddened to think that you actually claim to understand anything about Orthodox Christianity or Jesus Christ.

+1

[lektrode]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Originally Posted by Raz I'm saddened to think that you actually claim to understand anything about Orthodox Christianity or Jesus Christ.

+1

yeah, but...

imagine us catholic's reaction to the revelation above that not only was jesus a communist, but the pope is.... GASP!!
a marxist???

thats right up there with hearing how the mittster isnt a christian...

[shiny!]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

(I'm replying to Raz's post but not directing this at Raz specifically.)

"Jesus was a Communist."
"The Pope is a Marxist."
"That politician is a Conservative/Liberal/Communist/Marxist/Socialist/Fascist/something-ist..."

So what if someone's a Communist, a Marxist, or something else? Those philosophies aren't ALL bad, and never were. Just as pure unrestrained Capitalism isn't ALL good, and never has been. Personally, I'm finding labels less and less useful because they are too-often used to pigeonhole rather than inform discussion. I'm interested in ideas and solutions, regardless of where they may have come from or what they may have originally been called.

Can Communism ever be effective? Sure! Catholic convents and monasteries are prime examples of Communism done well. Why does it work there but fail as a government for larger societies? Because people who live in convents and monasteries choose to live that way voluntarily. The desire to share their wealth and live with less comes from within their own hearts. It isn't imposed on them from an authoritarian power against their will.

If every human being had a spiritual conversion at the same time whereby they suddenly cared as much about their neighbors' welfare as their own... whereby they could be happy with having just enough but no more... whereby they knew that everyone else was just as altruistic, just as unattached to material wealth as they were... If everyone was self-motivated to be good and honest at all times without needing any external force of law to make them be that way... we would experience something like pure Communism. Or Heaven.

The Pope may have his heart in the right place (I think he does), but he doesn't understand that "wealth equality" doesn't work well when it's imposed on people by force. Not unless you happen to like concentration camps.

But he isn't all wrong, either! The Communist experiments of the last century killed millions of people. But Capitalism/Consumerism unrestrained by morality and kindness is also a bad system. The social pendulum keeps swinging from one extreme to the other, but we don't seem to be learning anything. We're running out of resources and running out of time. Something has to give, and soon.

My question is, can we learn from the mistakes of history and create a better system for sharing this little rock? We need to stop reacting emotionally to labels and look dispassionately at successful systems and failed systems. See what parts worked and what didn't. Can we apply this knowledge to our current problems with an eye towards the needs of future generations? Or will we just shut our brains down every time we hear a label we've been taught to fear and hate?

Here's one of my favorite books, a "thought experiment" of what a society living in pure, voluntary Communism could look like:

"The Dispossessed" by Ursula K. LeGuin

[Raz]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Why Bishop Raz! So good to hear from you old friend. To what do I owe the honor of your sanctified attention? Mitre getting too heavy wear? Now don't tell me you've left your cloister just to correct little ole Woodsman.

St. Matthew 7:6

[jpetr48]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

(I'm replying to Raz's post but not directing this at Raz specifically.)

"Jesus was a Communist."
"The Pope is a Marxist."
"That politician is a Conservative/Liberal/Communist/Marxist/Socialist/Fascist/something-ist..."

So what if someone's a Communist, a Marxist, or something else? Those philosophies aren't ALL bad, and never were. Just as pure unrestrained Capitalism isn't ALL good, and never has been. Personally, I'm finding labels less and less useful because they are too-often used to pigeonhole rather than inform discussion. I'm interested in ideas and solutions, regardless of where they may have come from or what they may have originally been called.

Can Communism ever be effective? Sure! Catholic convents and monasteries are prime examples of Communism done well. Why does it work there but fail as a government for larger societies? Because people who live in convents and monasteries choose to live that way voluntarily. The desire to share their wealth and live with less comes from within their own hearts. It isn't imposed on them from an authoritarian power against their will.

If every human being had a spiritual conversion at the same time whereby they suddenly cared as much about their neighbors' welfare as their own... whereby they could be happy with having just enough but no more... whereby they knew that everyone else was just as altruistic, just as unattached to material wealth as they were... If everyone was self-motivated to be good and honest at all times without needing any external force of law to make them be that way... we would experience something like pure Communism. Or Heaven.

The Pope may have his heart in the right place (I think he does), but he doesn't understand that "wealth equality" doesn't work well when it's imposed on people by force. Not unless you happen to like concentration camps.

But he isn't all wrong, either! The Communist experiments of the last century killed millions of people. But Capitalism/Consumerism unrestrained by morality and kindness is also a bad system. The social pendulum keeps swinging from one extreme to the other, but we don't seem to be learning anything. We're running out of resources and running out of time. Something has to give, and soon.

My question is, can we learn from the mistakes of history and create a better system for sharing this little rock? We need to stop reacting emotionally to labels and look dispassionately at successful systems and failed systems. See what parts worked and what didn't. Can we apply this knowledge to our current problems with an eye towards the needs of future generations? Or will we just shut our brains down every time we hear a label we've been taught to fear and hate?

Here's one of my favorite books, a "thought experiment" of what a society living in pure, voluntary Communism could look like:

"The Dispossessed" by Ursula K. LeGuin

Shiny,

this is a macro economic site and i have refrained from saying much here until your post. Over the years we have gotten to know each other thanks to itulip. So i will reply to your thread out of more personal ties and also to reinforce what Raz has stated.

there is another great book to read or chapter in the bible. it is the story of a real king who was made king over israel, only he asked for wisdom and he not only got wisdom but was one of the richest people in the world.This is real inequality and he exercised a tax on different provinces so he can enjoy more. (Sounding familiar). So the first few chapters of ecclesiastes details what King Solomon did with his wealth and then the next few chapters he came to realize what his wealth did to him. the last chapter of Ecclesiastes - chapter 12- is the best because it shows who gave him the wealth and who can take it away- and it is not the government or socialism, communism etc.

What makes me qualified to comment on this? Like many on itulip i also have a significant life experience. Before the age of 43 i lived like Solomon only without all the castles and cars and planes. i was raised in NYC where you walked around with a swagger or else you got run over or thrown over a subway platform. I then moved to Northern California where in san francisco it was pretty much as you describe- everything is acceptable. That really brings out any closet tendencies and still is the case in this crazy state of CA. Our new law goes something like this- "Do i feel like a girl today-mmm- let me use the woman's bathroom."

all this to say the best book one can ever read is the bible- i have read and studied most of the religions and even followed a few -then came the bible. it is more than a history book and its founder is the only founder (Jesus Christ) who is still claimed to be living which makes it a living word
It is the best selling book ever and if there is any truth post publication of the ancient scrolls- all of that truth comes from only one source. Yep even the Byrd's famous song To Everything There is a Season is from Ecclesiastes 3(see below)
http://home.comcast.net/~antaylor1/b...lingbooks.html

Hope this adds to our conversation.
joe


Ecclesiastes 3
3 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
² a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
³ a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to build up;
⁴ a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
⁵ a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
⁶ a time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
⁷ a time to tear, and a time to sew;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
⁸ a time to love, and a time to hate;
a time for war, and a time for peace.

[jk]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

"The Dispossessed" by Ursula K. LeGuin

great book

[Woodsman]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

St. Matthew 7:6


“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

I see. You consider me akin to a dog and a pig and you judge me as unholy. And of all the beauty and wisdom contained in the Sermon on the Mount, it's this passage that speaks to you with most clarity. “Who then can be saved?”

God bless you and keep you, Raz. And thank's for giving me the opportunity to read the Sermon on the Mount once again.