Inequality much worse than most think

[llanlad2]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Now I bet she is excellent at giving advice to endowments on "what/who to invest in."

I bet she's also good at giving compliments to the boss. Flattery and ingratiation will can open lots of doors as I am sure you will all agree. Especially as I know you itulipers to be such intelligent, wonderful people

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I bet she's also good at giving compliments to the boss. Flattery and ingratiation will can open lots of doors as I am sure you will all agree. Especially as I know you itulipers to be such intelligent, wonderful people

Hah, she is pretty about 5'8, 5'9 asian girl. But thanks for the compliment

[flintlock]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The only comment I would make is that I distinguish as two completely separate concepts wealth and standard of living vs financial wealth. The typical input of labor is much poorer financially and that spells trouble. In fact when someone buys something their standard of living improves while their finances diminish. So there is some short term inverse relationship. As I see it now , the middle class is enjoying a rising standard of living which is a what has baited them to destroy their finances under a much longer curve these days. China was "a capitalist" country before the US was even a country. It is not a pleasant thing to read the conditions.

I generally agree, but we need to remember that until modern times, a major pursuit in life was simply getting enough to eat. Human suffering was off the charts compared to today. Now even our poor are fat, have cars, medical care, heat in the winter. But yes, people today trade wealth for standard of living. That has as much to do with our welfare safety net as anything else. If people really believed they would starve it would change things.

[flintlock]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Sure if you only gauge success in terms of money. I don't. I don't worry about what others have or have accomplished. We all have different circumstances. I have raised three great kids while managing to pay the bills, all while suffering with significant health problems. I didn't have to lie or cheat anyone to do so. I live comfortably, if simply. I notice those on this forum that post a lot have the time to do so. To me that could be a sign of success. Free time not spent slaving away is worth more to me than consumer junk. My guess is you are more successful than you give yourself credit for. The modern Materialistic value system is bankrupt, ignore it.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I generally agree, but we need to remember that until modern times, a major pursuit in life was simply getting enough to eat. Human suffering was off the charts compared to today. Now even our poor are fat, have cars, medical care, heat in the winter. But yes, people today trade wealth for standard of living. That has as much to do with our welfare safety net as anything else. If people really believed they would starve it would change things.

This only pertains to America/Canada and some Western European countries/global financial centers. Most of the rest of the world is starving.

This is why India is the way that it is; chaotic. 99% of the people have to fight for the meager resources that are available to the masses.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Sure if you only gauge success in terms of money. I don't. I don't worry about what others have or have accomplished. We all have different circumstances. I have raised three great kids while managing to pay the bills, all while suffering with significant health problems. I didn't have to lie or cheat anyone to do so. I live comfortably, if simply. I notice those on this forum that post a lot have the time to do so. To me that could be a sign of success. Free time not spent slaving away is worth more to me than consumer junk. My guess is you are more successful than you give yourself credit for. The modern Materialistic value system is bankrupt, ignore it.

I am not gauging my success based on monetary value. It is far more complicated. Recognition and respect matters more to me and being given the opportunity to "play the game."

If I don't get the opportunity that I know I can succeed at than I have failed in that venture of my life. That window is rapidly closing.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I generally agree, but we need to remember that until modern times, a major pursuit in life was simply getting enough to eat. Human suffering was off the charts compared to today. Now even our poor are fat, have cars, medical care, heat in the winter. But yes, people today trade wealth for standard of living. That has as much to do with our welfare safety net as anything else. If people really believed they would starve it would change things.

Funny you should say that last part. There is a facility to help the homeless on my way to work that has an apple tree on its property. No one touches them but me. I am eating one of the several hundred pounds I got this year right now for lunch. The quality is superior. The poor college kids in the apartments have no interest in the dolgos crab apple , cornelain cherry, service berries or aronia in the land scape across the street either. Now some of the things I do might be 16 century "Indian", but full sized apples?

[Rajiv]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The main reason people in the US do not harvest the trees, even those lining the street in front of their house, is the very strong notion of property rights, or rather over the lack thereof. The predominant thought is "It is not my tree - so I cannot take the fruit off of it" It does not matter, that the tree is on the property of a facility to help the homeless. Also, I have had instance, where the fruit was falling off, and rotting, and I have knocked on the door, asking if I could have some of the fruit. The answer more often than not is "NO! It is my business, and not yours!"

Then of course, there is as you have pointed out, a lack of knowledge of what is edible and what is not!

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

This only pertains to America/Canada and some Western European countries/global financial centers. Most of the rest of the world is starving.

This is why India is the way that it is; chaotic. 99% of the people have to fight for the meager resources that are available to the masses.

There are many way to look at it but the real basis is water. Many parts of the world depend on irrigation for agriculture which is inherently politically controlled. All one has to do is look to do is look at our west and compare it to the east. There is a reason why millionaire farmers live in California and not in Nebraska. If it rains where you live, starvation is based on ignorance. In many societies with irrigation agriculture, its rooted in politics. The only exceptions to this rule are living in heavily urbanized areas where land is as scarce as water. Goats and chickens can eat almost anything. The problem is once an area can produce some kind of food surplus, its vulnerable to confiscation.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The main reason people in the US do not harvest the trees, even those lining the street in front of their house, is the very strong notion of property rights, or rather over the lack thereof. The predominant thought is "It is not my tree - so I cannot take the fruit off of it" It does not matter, that the tree is on the property of a facility to help the homeless. Also, I have had instance, where the fruit was falling off, and rotting, and I have knocked on the door, asking if I could have some of the fruit. The answer more often than not is "NO! It is my business, and not yours!"

Then of course, there is as you have pointed out, a lack of knowledge of what is edible and what is not!

I find this to be the case with several apple tree in parks as well. It is also true what you say, but I believe the idea of eating fruit from a tree is now an alien concept in much of our culture.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I find this to be the case with several apple tree in parks as well. It is also true what you say, but I believe the idea of eating fruit from a tree is now an alien concept in much of our culture.

When I was a kid my house was a stones throw from the apple orchard on top of the hill. I would go there and take apples from the tree to eat. When I got older I thought "maybe someone will catch me taking apples?"

I know that my love for green apples over red (I hate the skin on red apples) led me to ask the same question everyday at elementary school lunch; Why do you not have green apples?

I met my elementary school principal when I was 20 or so and he told me "you look exactly the same as you did back then and all I remember about you is that everyday you would ask for green apples at lunch"

I was persistent.

[photon555]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Another great and informative thread on itulip. May I suggest that the ability of a group of people to engage in a conversation like this over a period of time, something that was not possible even 20 years ago, is a form of wealth and a great enhancement in the standard of living.

I believe all information has value, even if it is only entertainment value. But to me at least, the exercise of the mind that comes from encountering differing opinions and viewpoints is worth quite a lot more than the cost of internet service. On these forums, the whole is worth far more than the sum of its parts.

[DSpencer]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

There are many way to look at it but the real basis is water. Many parts of the world depend on irrigation for agriculture which is inherently politically controlled. All one has to do is look to do is look at our west and compare it to the east. There is a reason why millionaire farmers live in California and not in Nebraska. If it rains where you live, starvation is based on ignorance. In many societies with irrigation agriculture, its rooted in politics. The only exceptions to this rule are living in heavily urbanized areas where land is as scarce as water. Goats and chickens can eat almost anything. The problem is once an area can produce some kind of food surplus, its vulnerable to confiscation.

I also think population density is a huge factor. Imagine if the US had India's population density which is about 11 times higher. That would be 3.5 billion people.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I also think population density is a huge factor. Imagine if the US had India's population density which is about 11 times higher. That would be 3.5 billion people.

In the US a boat flows down stream because of our enlightened political system. Yes, I agree that the empty continent , due in no small part to a powerful virulence of old world disease, is responsible for the civilization such that it was.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

It's interesting how so many discussions here and on other sites boil down to the same basic disagreement: one side thinks that the rich/oligarchs/corporations/etc are thieves who have rigged things so that average people can't get ahead, and the other side thinks that anyone can maximize their potential if they have the right attitudes and work hard. It's interesting to me how hard the folks on the pessimistic side of this argument will work to hold on to their belief that you can't lift yourself up by your bootstraps, that it's all about connections, that the rich won't let you get rich unless you're in their club. It's so defeatist. I think it's a belief held by people who have given up, so they make themselves feel better by telling themselves that there's no way to succeed anyway.

By any historical standard, simply by living in the west in the 21st century you have all of the opportunity you could possibly need. But instead of looking for ways to improve their skills or ideas for solving problems for other people in new ways, these people who have given up bitterly cling to their conviction that there's no use in trying because the super-rich will never let you succeed, that the only way you really get rich is by being born rich.

It's really an argument that is rooted in people's emotional personalities: optimists versus pessimists would be an (over-)simple way of expressing it. And neither side is going to convince the other, because we don't believe what we believe for factual reasons but because it makes us feel good emotionally.

I hope I never reach the point where I think it is essentially impossible to do what I want in life, including getting rich, because I wasn't born rich. It is that defeatist attitude that irritates me when I read those sorts of comments. And I am sure that my optimism irritates the pessimists just as much.

Kind of a pointless discussion in terms of coming to some agreement. But I guess we all get something out of it by rehashing the same pro- and anti-wealth arguments over and over.