Inequality much worse than most think

[EJ]

Re: Sunday Evening Ramble #1

nice one Mr J.
always good to and appreciate seeing how facts/figures enlighten this topic vs political bias.

was also interesting to see where my ole k-12 hometown fit into the equation - somewhere on the list south of billerica and north of lawrence - altho i think that whether/not ones parents achieved a college degree matters more in the end than how much is spent on per pupil or in the aggregate - as we see in some of the highest expenditure states with some of the lower/est results, its NOT what gets spent, its what gets retained (in the brains of the students)

the other thing about that list - at least above what are apparently all in barney franks former district? - is just how relatively close the expenditures of individual towns are in MA - while having wildly different results (i'm guessing)?

I too was surprised that aging post-industrial Massachusetts towns like Leominster spend nearly as much per student as purportedly upscale towns like Belmont. To see how the other half lives requires a drive farther than to Lawrence.

Lower tax revenues spells lower per-pupil spending. These states on average spend less than $8,000 per pupil.




Higher tax revenues spells higher per-pupil spending. These states on average spend more than $13,000 per pupil.




This state used to spend nearly $10,000 per pupil but now less than $9,000. Guess which one?

[llanlad2]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

i agree with your assessment. such inequality is not a necessary condition for a dynamic and healthy economy; instead it's a result of the wealthy capturing the political system and manipulating it to their ever-growing advantage in the absence of sufficient countervailing forces.

what's unfortunate is not our diagnosing the condition; it's the absence of good solutions.

I think the problem is partly to do with misdiagnosis. There is an obsession with what is "good for the economy" rather than what is good for humans and the human condition. The "what is good for the economy" question takes precedence over all else. The profit motive currently determines the culture of the US. From a business and especially corporations point of view this means working people harder, for the least amount of money. Defending corporations "rights" above all else will result in a "unhealthy society". There is a cause and effect here that most people refuse to accept. The levels of inequality, incarceration, anti-depressant use and murder are consequences of American (Business) Culture.

[GRG55]

Re: Sunday Evening Ramble #1

...

This state used to spend nearly $10,000 per pupil but now less than $9,000. Guess which one?

"...My observation at the time was that if the family the students went home to after school supported them then it worked and if they didn't it didn't..."

California?

Family support is one of the reasons immigrant children often do well scholastically. My immigrant mother was the daughter of an Army officer. Unlike my father she had two degrees (English and Mathematics). I have 5 brothers (no sisters). She ran the household like a boot camp. A "B" on the report card was a trigger for extra homework. The consequences of bringing home a C+ were not to be contemplated. Amy Chua isn't the first...

[EJ]

Re: Sunday Evening Ramble #1

California?

Family support is one of the reasons immigrant children often do well scholastically. My immigrant mother was the daughter of an Army officer. Unlike my father she had two degrees (English and Mathematics). I have 5 brothers (no sisters). She ran the household like a boot camp. A "B" on the report card was a trigger for extra homework. The consequences of bringing home a C+ were not to be contemplated. Amy Chua isn't the first...

That's a bingo.

California -- America's Argentina -- continues to devolve.

[jk]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

would be interesting to see the stats on depression/suicide/violent-death comparing urbanites and country folk
(and/or - tween the red states and the blues...)

When controlled for geographic variation in divorce rate and ethnic composition, rural men, in each age cohort, had about twice the suicide rate of their most urban counterparts. Observed rural–urban differentials for women diminished over time. In 1995 to 1997, the adjusted suicide rates for young and working-age women were 85% and 22% higher, respectively, in rural than in the most urban areas.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447208/

[jk]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

re school spending. i once spent some time with the data about the 169 towns in ct. i chose groups of towns with similar housing values to control for socio-economics, and then looked at expenditure per pupil and 4 year college attendance [unfortunately the only outcome measure that was available]. bottom line, expenditure per pupil predicted nothing. socio-economic status predicted academic outcomes.

[jk]

Re: Visit the right places--change your tune

"diseases" like SAD(Seasonal Affective Disorder)

1. rates of depression, alcoholism and suicide all correlate with latitude. hell of a coincidence. the correlation is ameliorated to some degree in those countries with a high intake of fish/omega-3 fatty acids.
2. i was quite skeptical of bright light treatment for many years, until enough good research came out of the national institute of mental health supporting it. of course it doesn't work for everybody, but what does?
3. many, though not a majority of people, with bipolar disorder have seasonal mood swings.
4. fred goodwin, formerly head of the national institute of mental health and probably the world's foremost expert on bipolar disorder, is of the opinon that cyclic, recurrent and chronic depression has more in common with bipolar disorder than with single, isolated episode depression.
5. there's a vast literature showing that lithium augments the action of antidepressants in many patients. genetic studies have unfortunately not been done to characterize this interesting sub-population.
6. there are some studies available, however, about the genetics of seasonal affective disorder. also some neuro-imaging. google is your friend. so is "science."

[lektrode]

Re: Visit the right places--change your tune

1. rates of depression, alcoholism and suicide all correlate with latitude. hell of a coincidence. the correlation is ameliorated to some degree in those countries with a high intake of fish/omega-3 fatty acids.
2. i was quite skeptical of bright light treatment for many years, until enough good research came out of the national institute of mental health supporting it. of course it doesn't work for everybody, but what does?
.....
...............
6. there are some studies available, however, about the genetics of seasonal affective disorder. also some neuro-imaging. google is your friend. so is "science."

altho one weekend in fort lauderdale in november was enough to convince me that there's definitely something to this theory - esp after i spent the entire next winter down in marathon, on the keys - was quite amazed at the effects of sunny day after sunny day after sunny day in january - those same effects kept me in waikiki for a lot longer than i ever planned on

but missing the change of seasons eventually got to me....

When controlled for geographic variation in divorce rate and ethnic composition, rural men, in each age cohort, had about twice the suicide rate of their most urban counterparts. Observed rural–urban differentials for women diminished over time. In 1995 to 1997, the adjusted suicide rates for young and working-age women were 85% and 22% higher, respectively, in rural than in the most urban areas.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447208/

thanks for/appreciate the comeback, jk - guess its not surprising - isolation, lack of economic/employment opportunity, lack of intellectual stimulation and/or suitable relationship partners would all factor into that (and yeah, i know all about all of it)

what about violent/murder caused ?

re school spending. i once spent some time with the data about the 169 towns in ct. i chose groups of towns with similar housing values to control for socio-economics, and then looked at expenditure per pupil and 4 year college attendance [unfortunately the only outcome measure that was available]. bottom line, expenditure per pupil predicted nothing. socio-economic status predicted academic outcomes.

+1
but, of course -altho according to some, its all about how much is NOT being spent...

[lektrode]

Re: Sunday Evening Ramble #1

That's a bingo.
California -- America's Argentina -- continues to devolve.

huh - from what eye note elsewhere, one gets the impression that CA isnt the worst/lowest - ALTHO...

GS seems to think enough of this one particular locales education RESULTS to locate their largest operation outside of lower manhattan - in that particular place...

their help wanted adverts seem to suggest there might be smarter than avg sorts there?

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Visit the right places--change your tune

1. rates of depression, alcoholism and suicide all correlate with latitude. hell of a coincidence. the correlation is ameliorated to some degree in those countries with a high intake of fish/omega-3 fatty acids.
2. i was quite skeptical of bright light treatment for many years, until enough good research came out of the national institute of mental health supporting it. of course it doesn't work for everybody, but what does?
3. many, though not a majority of people, with bipolar disorder have seasonal mood swings.
4. fred goodwin, formerly head of the national institute of mental health and probably the world's foremost expert on bipolar disorder, is of the opinon that cyclic, recurrent and chronic depression has more in common with bipolar disorder than with single, isolated episode depression.
5. there's a vast literature showing that lithium augments the action of antidepressants in many patients. genetic studies have unfortunately not been done to characterize this interesting sub-population.
6. there are some studies available, however, about the genetics of seasonal affective disorder. also some neuro-imaging. google is your friend. so is "science."

I'm certainly NOT opposed to people getting as much time(as is safe....sometimes it's TOO much of a good thing for the skin/eyes WAY down here in Summer) in the light as possible....our family certainly does by lifestyle choice.

My issue is with the Brave New World Soma pill popping culture and considerable efforts to reformulate off-patents into new marketing gimmicks.

Just look at the explosion in pharmaceutical sleeping aids. A massive profit centre derived all too often from poor lifestyle choices.

If poverty was defined and marketing as a disease or medical condition how long until a pill is developed to treat it? What formulation would that be? A dash of Ritalin for focus, a bit of Viagra for confidence, a chunk of Ambien to sleep, and a hit of Prozac to keep from going all THX1138.

Maybe it could be dispensed by a digital Jesus to disintermediate the pharmacist?

I'm a HUGE believer in science......my fairly short lifetime has seen a revolution in pharmacology, biotechnology, nanotechnology, and how they all relate to the massive advances in computing technology.

If you got rid of special interest influence and tidy up a dangerously corrupt political process(including excessive influence from not only FIRE but the industries listed above as well as others), then I would have far less concerns about poverty being defined and marketed as a disease by those with agendas malignant to the nation.

[jpatter666]

Re: Visit the right places--change your tune

There is deep and menacing poverty in this country and the only way anyone does not see it is because they choose to ignore it.

Disagree.

Go to South Sudan, Myanmar, Haiti, the slums of Indonesia and India. *That* is deep and menacing poverty, living on $1 or $2/day. Most of those people aspire to be where the poor in the US are by default. The difference is that in the US if you want to pull yourself up, there is the ability to do so. Very little chance of that in many other countries (although that is the essence of what my wife's organization does and they have a *long* waiting list).

This is not to say there aren't problems, but going to those other countries is an eye-opening experience as to relativity.

[jk]

Re: Visit the right places--change your tune

My issue is with the Brave New World Soma pill popping culture and considerable efforts to reformulate off-patents into new marketing gimmicks.

Just look at the explosion in pharmaceutical sleeping aids. A massive profit centre derived all too often from poor lifestyle choices.

If poverty was defined and marketing as a disease or medical condition how long until a pill is developed to treat it? What formulation would that be? A dash of Ritalin for focus, a bit of Viagra for confidence, a chunk of Ambien to sleep, and a hit of Prozac to keep from going all THX1138.
......

If you got rid of special interest influence and tidy up a dangerously corrupt political process(including excessive influence from not only FIRE but the industries listed above as well as others), then I would have far less concerns about poverty being defined and marketed as a disease by those with agendas malignant to the nation.

i think you mean ON-patent. at least here in the u.s., it is only drugs which are still on patent which are marketed. when the patent runs out or is otherwise invalidated, the drugs become generic and no one will pay to market it since there wil be multiple producers,

big pharma [as it is called] is a huge and corrupting influence in the u.s. billy tauzin used to be head of the house committe which oversaw the creation of the medicare drug benefit, medicare part d. they imposed a rule that medicare was NOT ALLOWED to use its buying power to negotiate lower drug prices. billy tauzin retired from congress and is now exec director of big pharma's national association.

[santafe2]

Re: Visit the right places--change your tune

Disagree.

Go to South Sudan, Myanmar, Haiti, the slums of Indonesia and India. *That* is deep and menacing poverty, living on $1 or $2/day. Most of those people aspire to be where the poor in the US are by default. The difference is that in the US if you want to pull yourself up, there is the ability to do so. Very little chance of that in many other countries (although that is the essence of what my wife's organization does and they have a *long* waiting list).

This is not to say there aren't problems, but going to those other countries is an eye-opening experience as to relativity.

There are 1.5MM households in the US living in extreme poverty, defined as living on $2 a day or less before government support. This is double the number of families in 1996, almost 3MM children.
http://npc.umich.edu/publications/po...icybrief28.pdf
If we must compare the US to South Sudan and Haiti instead of countries in Europe, our fate is sealed. BTW, the poverty you describe is simply inhumane but it does not excuse the same level of poverty in the US because it is less wide spread and most of these people are supported by government programs.

[jpatter666]

Re: Visit the right places--change your tune

There are 1.5MM households in the US living in extreme poverty, defined as living on $2 a day or less before government support. This is double the number of families in 1996, almost 3MM children.
http://npc.umich.edu/publications/po...icybrief28.pdf
If we must compare the US to South Sudan and Haiti instead of countries in Europe, our fate is sealed. BTW, the poverty you describe is simply inhumane but it does not excuse the same level of poverty in the US because it is less wide spread and most of these people are supported by government programs.

An interesting paper -- I'll pass along to my wife. However, my view is not changed -- "extreme poverty" in the US is not even in the same building as extreme poverty in the third world and it is playing word games to even pretend so.

[jk]

Re: Visit the right places--change your tune

i'm not sure what the point is of saying that the poor in the u.s. aren't as badly off as those in haiti or south sudan. does this mean we shouldn't concern ourselves with the poor in america? no kwashiorkor? no worries!