Inequality much worse than most think

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I held a gun to Steve Job's head and said "stickem up".

The angriest on the forums always have interesting emotional baggage to bring to the table. I'm off to vegas laters.

Wait I'm angry? Aren't you the one who was disappointed in Woodman? Aren't you the one disappointed in all these "intelligent" people? You condemn yourself.

You make another assumption that I am angry with nary an argument in sight. Pressed for time again?

So ya hit someone with a hockey stick and hope they put themselves in the box? I ruthlessly attack bad arguments. That is my guilt without protestations of innocence. I just like clean arguments which you have failed to do again an again. I speak as plainly to my children, and I love them . You desire that I should mind your feelings when you whine and yelp like they do? Good grief get over yourself and try some objectivity.

And to deconstruct your method, of course one can always leak one of their personal anecdotes sparsely populated with information baiting them into your waiting retort, filling in the facts like a surprise witness. Heck I still remember a single mama discussion where widow was withheld until the right moment.

These tactics will convince only the simpleminded, hence it has gone over poorly here.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

In my last business, (solar PV), which I am just now exiting, one of my motivations for starting the business was large federal and local government support and backing of the product. Without it, no business plan would have made sense. I wouldn't call it privilege since anyone who understood the business knew the cost of products would come down faster than government would change policy and there would come a point where the product was perceived by many as less expensive than traditional energy. That crossover came about three years ago in many locations thanks to several internal and external drivers. Unlike most of our competition, we were prepared and positioned in the right markets to take advantage of the intrinsic molasses like reaction of government entities. So like the boys and girls do in the defense industry we observed what the government wanted and calculated the outcome. But I suppose that's OK since solar is cute and doesn't actually kill many people.

Given the amount of "investment" capital currently available to the USG, anyone basing their business plan outside this income stream is probably working too hard to succeed. Governments are consensus based and take forever to change direction. Business is a dictatorship and good ones can change immediately when it's required. It's the structure of the two entities that allows business to drive government, especially in the US. People may not like it and it's gotten to the point where it's really not fair to several segments of the population but I don't understand why anyone who understands how this system works would try to fight it. The US may be just another big ship and it might be the Titanic, but right now, I don't see icebergs and as a good friend of mine will often remind me, the end only comes once. There will be a lot of opportunity before then.

You or I or anyone on iTulip will not change the direction of this vessel, but we can financially prepare ourselves and our families if indeed there is an iceberg ahead.

The problem is I see it a thousand times. Those who take the "market position" are always prepared to take the productive high ground expecting some moral argument for some form a social welfare. I then routinely strip them of this moral authority, and tell them they will fall into some ontological argument which is ironically some social grace they were all to prepared to attack when they thought they had the high ground. So once they find themselves on the side of social welfare, which is what legislative created assets are, their head explodes and they make these irrational demonstrations, as if giving someone the right to collect 50k from a government protected asset differs from welfare.


Now what you are talking may or not be what I would consider corruption. The government should consume technology based upon specifications . It might even create a bounty which is really just a "demand for it" . It does not choose the technology however in that case. Though keep in mind it is vulnerable to favoritism nonetheless.

The main problem right now is too much federal government, and way too much FIRE sector.

[santafe2]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The problem is I see it a thousand times. Those who take the "market position" are always prepared to take the productive high ground expecting some moral argument for some form a social welfare. I then routinely strip them of this moral authority, and tell them they will fall into some ontological argument which is ironically some social grace they were all to prepared to attack when they thought they had the high ground. So once they find themselves on the side of social welfare, which is what legislative created assets are, their head explodes and they make these irrational demonstrations, as if giving someone the right to collect 50k from a government protected asset differs from welfare.


Now what you are talking may or not be what I would consider corruption. The government should consume technology based upon specifications . It might even create a bounty which is really just a "demand for it" . It does not choose the technology however in that case. Though keep in mind it is vulnerable to favoritism nonetheless.

The main problem right now is too much federal government, and way too much FIRE sector.

Sorry, I'm totally missing your point. Possibly you could give me real world examples that illustrate your point of view. Thanks.

[vt]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

POZ,

I have stated a few times on here that both parties are responsible for the AFC. The problem I have is the media and liberals tried to place the entire blame on the Republicans.
They certainly had a part in it, but no more than the Democrats:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamn...joshua-rosner/

[Woodsman]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

POZ,

I have stated a few times on here that both parties are responsible for the AFC. The problem I have is the media and liberals tried to place the entire blame on the Republicans.
They certainly had a part in it, but no more than the Democrats:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamn...joshua-rosner/

Why should that bother you so much, vt? Why does it matter to you that blame be perfectly apportioned. After all that you've seen and learned, you're still holding a candle for the GOP? What is that, a form of political Stockholm Syndrome?

So all the talk about a new majority party is just eyewash, then? Principled conservatives have been thrown under the bus for some many years by the GOP elites. Why on Earth any independent minded person would still carry water for those guys I'll never understand. Unless of course you're more partisan than you pretend to be here. I will never vote for either a Democrat or Republican again, ever. I'll write my Dad's name in before I'd ever pull the lever for either of those rotting corpses.

This is what they have done, starting with Reagan and including Clinton and Obama and both GOP and Democratic congresses. They've robbed our children of their birthright as Americans and sold it for pennies on the dollar. Christ, even the Harvard Business School -bastion of the status quo - is admitting it now.


HBR Blog Network


America’s Economy Is Officially Inside-Out

by Umair Haque | 1:00 PM December 9, 2013

• Comments

This is the first generation of Americans in modern history expected to enjoy lower living standards than their forebears. It is the first generation in modern history whose life expectancy is dwindling. It is the first generation of modern Americans whose educational attainment is declining. It is the first generation of modern Americans who face less opportunity than their parents.

http://blogs.hbr.org/2013/12/america...ly-inside-out/

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Sorry, I'm totally missing your point. Possibly you could give me real world examples that illustrate your point of view. Thanks.

The same ones John Locke , Adam Smith and Jefferson spoke about.
Direct taxes on labor = bad.
Taxes on capital = bad.
Feudalism and "land owner" on resume = bad.
Money lender backed by government = bad.

Since taxes are slapped on labor in direct opposition to the godfather of capitalism, Adam Smith how much real world do you need? I don't think BF Skinner would think punishing labor and capital is a good idea either.

The real world is someone like Donald Trump who collects way too much money from increasing "ground rents" as they used to call it. Henry George is probably your best bet for the RE in FIRE. You will have to read up on Keynes and Minsky to see how F stuck their fangs into RE. And I benefits from insuring higher priced assets.

Perhaps I assume too much that one knows the FIRE sector model here?

[vt]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Who's holding a candle for the GOP? I've said they are to blame many times. I just want to see ALL the crooks exposed

Maybe it's just you holding a candle for the Democrats? You seem to react whenever they are exposed.

I've always felt that Truman was the best President of the 20th century, followed closely by Eisenhower.

Enough of this back and forth about useless political parties. The real question is how to we begin to reduce the inequality in society?

How are we going to produce opportunity for increased living standards for all Americans? How are we going to increase the middle class?

How would you do it Woodsman?

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

POZ,

I have stated a few times on here that both parties are responsible for the AFC. The problem I have is the media and liberals tried to place the entire blame on the Republicans.
They certainly had a part in it, but no more than the Democrats:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamn...joshua-rosner/

I have more trouble beating up on Democrats because they are just that much more obviously off the rocker with the welfare state and identity politics. There are no counter intuitive puzzles to solve unlike the Republican position . What can you say about it really? Its just plain broken.

The problem with Republicans is that they think they are supporting the engine of productivity, but they are deceived.

[Woodsman]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

This is juvenile and my ass and back ache from a 14 hour day of work. Let's do the Sam and Ralph routine and start again after we clock in tomorrow, alrighty?

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Why should that bother you so much, vt? Why does it matter to you that blame be perfectly apportioned. After all that you've seen and learned, you're still holding a candle for the GOP? What is that, a form of political Stockholm Syndrome?

So all the talk about a new majority party is just eyewash, then? Principled conservatives have been thrown under the bus for some many years by the GOP elites. Why on Earth any independent minded person would still carry water for those guys I'll never understand. Unless of course you're more partisan than you pretend to be here. I will never vote for either a Democrat or Republican again, ever. I'll write my Dad's name in before I'd ever pull the lever for either of those rotting corpses.

This is what they have done, starting with Reagan and including Clinton and Obama and both GOP and Democratic congresses. They've robbed our children of their birthright as Americans and sold it for pennies on the dollar. Christ, even the Harvard Business School -bastion of the status quo - is admitting it now.


HBR Blog Network



America’s Economy Is Officially Inside-Out

by Umair Haque | 1:00 PM December 9, 2013

• Comments

This is the first generation of Americans in modern history expected to enjoy lower living standards than their forebears. It is the first generation in modern history whose life expectancy is dwindling. It is the first generation of modern Americans whose educational attainment is declining. It is the first generation of modern Americans who face less opportunity than their parents.

http://blogs.hbr.org/2013/12/america...ly-inside-out/

I am one of those Ex-GOP refugees born and raised on the milk, butter and then aged GOP cheese. I hated Tip Oneal and his ilk and dreamt of the day a Republican congress would bring Camelot. Boy I wish I could treat you to a 20 year old version of myself. Then I started reading the founders of Western thought. You can only take so much before you realize the horror of the crime perpetrated.

Right over in the next cube at work I happened to find a lefty Refugee, as if I met a Russian in Berlin in 1945. He was thickly covered in lefty, da guberment is all that junk, so he tells me. We are almost in complete agreement at this point.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The same ones John Locke , Adam Smith and Jefferson spoke about.
Direct taxes on labor = bad.
Taxes on capital = bad.
Feudalism and "land owner" on resume = bad.
Money lender backed by government = bad.

Since taxes are slapped on labor in direct opposition to the godfather of capitalism, Adam Smith how much real world do you need? I don't think BF Skinner would think punishing labor and capital is a good idea either.

The real world is someone like Donald Trump who collects way too much money from increasing "ground rents" as they used to call it. Henry George is probably your best bet for the RE in FIRE. You will have to read up on Keynes and Minsky to see how F stuck their fangs into RE. And I benefits from insuring higher priced assets.

Perhaps I assume too much that one knows the FIRE sector model here?

The FIRE concept is poorly understood not only on iTulip but everywhere else as well. When you start talking about it people nod their head and go yeah I can see that but I am pretty sure they still don't get really get it.

I don't see how anyone could read Adam Smith and not see what he wrote has no bearing on our current "free market" system but what I have found out is "no one actually reads the original document or works."

They simply pull a few quotes that have been passed down by the people who turned Adam Smiths principles on their head and accept them as faith like a religion.

This is most likely the most important quote I could give anyone and one I say often without the second half of it pertaining to the Democrat party:

“The fallacies that lurk in words are the quicksands of theory; and as the conduct of nations is built on theory, the correction of word-fallacies is the never-ending labor of Science. … the party in this country, one of whose great aims was, at one time, the perpetuation of slavery, owed much of its popular vote to the name Democracy.” S. Dana Horton, Silver and Gold (1895).

Everyone today thinks Napoleon was a short little Frenchman with a now famous Napoleon complex because he was short. This was something invented by the British to make fun of him.

In reality Napoleon was 5'6 or 5'7 the average height for a Frenchman of that day. I have been to the plantations in New Orleans/LA that were owned by French people in the mid 1850's and the furniture was miniature.

I am convinced that no one actually reads the papers, books by Keynes or Marx or Smith or Quesnay so how can they actually know what they are talking about unless it is all second hand knowledge?

My suspicion is that most people don't read investment documents or research either.

It is rather astounding.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I have more trouble beating up on Democrats because they are just that much more obviously off the rocker with the welfare state and identity politics. There are no counter intuitive puzzles to solve unlike the Republican position . What can you say about it really? Its just plain broken.

The problem with Republicans is that they think they are supporting the engine of productivity, but they are deceived.

Totally agree. The one thing I loathe about the Democrat party is their identity politics.

When someone comes to you and tells you "my party is for black people simply because you are black or minorities in general" well I would run the other way because you know something is up their sleeve.

And I laughed out loud on that Russian in Berlin in 1945 comment.

I think I am the only person in my office that was called a Communist and Nazi in the same day by two different people. That's when you know you are doing something right.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

We've been sending food at least since 1946 when UNICEF was founded. Result, Africa fuel with this free food has has a population bloom from 180 million in '46 to over a billion and climbing to 2 billion in another 35 years.

The road to hell is paved...

What are all those people going to do? I can imagine the wars to be waged over "scare resources"

[santafe2]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

[QUOTE=ProdigyofZen;272248]What are all those people going to do?[QUOTE]

Now that is a very serious question. We've created the population problem with technology and we'll try to solve it with more technology. I'm not hopeful. When there is too much of any resource, only the most productive portions of that resource are required. There are of course many different ways to measure the value of a human being but staying with the economic argument, inequality seems easy to understand.

This might be better added to the automation thread but, using Adam Smith's division of labor, pin factory example, we see how many people it took to efficiently create a pin. One to pull the wire, one to straighten it, one to cut it, one to point it, one to grind the top, more to make and apply the head, more people to package, etc. etc. We've now specialized every one of those folks out of a job and require a single machine. And when he wrote this, there were nearly 10X fewer people than there are today. I don't see how this ends well for most.

[Woodsman]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

[QUOTE=ProdigyofZen;272248]What are all those people going to do?

Now that is a very serious question. We've created the population problem with technology and we'll try to solve it with more technology. I'm not hopeful. When there is too much of any resource, only the most productive portions of that resource are required. There are of course many different ways to measure the value of a human being but staying with the economic argument, inequality seems easy to understand.

This might be better added to the automation thread but, using Adam Smith's division of labor, pin factory example, we see how many people it took to efficiently create a pin. One to pull the wire, one to straighten it, one to cut it, one to point it, one to grind the top, more to make and apply the head, more people to package, etc. etc. We've now specialized every one of those folks out of a job and require a single machine. And when he wrote this, there were nearly 10X fewer people than there are today. I don't see how this ends well for most.

What did someone say yesterday about poverty? "I don't see it."

We won't see this, either. Merry fargin' Christmas.