(Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

[Roughneck]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

I recently had a calcium scan done as part of a heart check up. It is not covered by insurance. It cost $70 bucks. If it was covered by insurance I'm sure the 3 minute scan would have cost several hundred dollars. The third party payer system of insurance companies and the government has distorted the costs of medical care. Before private insurance and medicare most medical care was based on what people could afford to pay. I have a good company sponsored health plan. Most years unless I had a kid or a major surgery I was paying more in premiums than what I used in health care. A system where people pay for most routine car out of pocket and have a policy to cover major illness would be the way to go. Unfortunately between the doctors, government and insurance companies the costs of care are grosssly distorted.

[don]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

The third party payer system of insurance companies and the government has distorted the costs of medical care.

Bingo!

'Healthcare', utilizing the windfall profit engine of government, has never been healthier . . .

[seobook]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

I recently had a calcium scan done as part of a heat check up. It is not covered by insurance. It cost $70 bucks. If it was covered by insurance I'm sure the 3 minute scan would have cost several hundred dollars. The third party payer system of insurance companies and the government has distorted the costs of medical care. Before private insurance and medicare most medical care was based on what people could afford to pay. I have a good company sponsored health plan. Most years unless I had a kid or a major surgery I was paying more in premiums than what I used in health care. A system where people pay for most routine car out of pocket and have a policy to cover major illness would be the way to go. Unfortunently between the doctors, government and insurance companies the costs of care are grosssly distorted.

http://truecostofhealthcare.org/
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=225859

[don]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

the costs of care are grossly distorted

as in any oligopoly - historically it's been called super-profits . . .

[DSpencer]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

One big complaint often heard by young people like Aaron here at iTulip is that baby boomers swelling the ranks of retirees are sucking up the wealth produced by the younger generation. On one hand, SS isn't a free handout. Recipients have earned their Social Security and their retirement

This is the big misdirection. For a moment, ignore the fact that some people never voted or voted but their candidate/issue lost and just imagine society as one entity. What the baby boomers really did was pay SS and other taxes into a big pot. Then they spent all that money (and more) on government services for themselves. To now claim that "they earned" something that isn't there because they spent it already is quite deceptive.

Imagine it this way: Starting tomorrow the government votes to change the tax rate to zero. Everyone keeps paying what they are today, but instead of taxes we call it a loan or retirement program or social security. The government then keeps track of everyone's "contributions" and promises we will get them back later. But we continue to use all the money we pay in to fund our military and court system and welfare benefits and highways etc. Is it really fair to come back later and say "Sorry next generation, we determined that the money we spent on running the government for our benefit was actually a debt that you owe to us." It's preposterous.

[lektrode]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

Yes, of course, and I wish we would get on with it already. I'd like to see a system of distributed and decentralized power generation modeled on the TVA, managed as non-profit public utilities, and operated with a mix of public and private staff sourced locally (and not so tongue in cheek, "downwind" so safety is a personal matter). I'd like a model design that can be used across all sites, with safety and reliability the first priorities, and issues of waste disposal, security, community relations, emergency preparedness, and others addressed as part of the overall approach. I'd also like as much of the money as is practical and possible to be financed and spent locally.

Is that too much to ask?

nope = fair enough, but perhaps a bit of wishful thinking?
more or less along same lines as the 'affordable' care act (but not quite as based upon unobtanium as the ACA is ;)
but OK, sounds reasonable (and for me is a 'litmus test' of ones overall political bent) and in the interest of no further distraction on the topic of this thread - i'll agree and settle with ya for

a model design that can be used across all sites, with safety and reliability the first priorities, and issues of waste disposal, security, community relations, emergency preparedness, and others addressed as part of the overall approach.

altho we've already built the waste disposal facility - its in nevada and ole prince harry is going to have to accept that fact, since he/they already accepted the billions to build it - and should NOT be allowed to take the money and run, while sabotaging the only sane alternative (to continued fossil fuel poisoning of the biosphere) just because a small/very vocal minority are 'afraid of radiation' (but are somehow grateful that the TSA irradiates em every time they get on a plane, fly way up into the stratosphere, and get radiated even more = the purest definition of over-the-top nutso/hysterical kneejerk reactionary hype there ever was - that would be the antinuke/luddite brigade and their propaganda ;)

[lektrode]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

If "profit-driven" insurance companies .... are eliminated, and the government takes over, you may pay less for insurance - but pay a lot more in taxes.
....
The government does not do anything more efficiently than the private sector. There are a few goods that can only be provided by the government, by the nature of society - protection of property rights, defense, maybe roads (because of right-of-way issues).
....
Do not kid yourself that the government nationalizing an industry means that that industry is going to make things more affordable for the average citizen. The government will raise taxes or debase the currency in order to offer that illusion that they are saving you money on health care. There are no free lunches.

no doubt and +1

however...

why cant we have the .mil setup a '6th branch' of the services, called The US Medical Corps - that would be staffed by VOLUNTEERS who signup for med training - those who would like to be in the medical field, but DONT HAVE OR DONT WANT TO SPEND THEMSELVES INTO a lifetime of INDENTURED SERVITUDE courtesy of the .edu/finance-industrial complex - they go thru the same programs of education/training as the private sector staffs do, only on uncle sams dime AND THEN OWE THE REST OF US an equal amount of time, IN SERVICE to their fellow americans - offering clinical services of Provider of Last Resort to those who cant afford the med-ins-drug-legal mobs extortion game?

'free' walkin clinics administered by the .mil's EXISTING framework - with charges that would be levied upon those with the means to pay for the supplies they consume while in said clinics - the 'labor' portion of services provided by the VOLUNTEERS (who'd get paid on the same scale as the rest of the .mil, with the same bene's/housing etc, while in service)
and it would be 'managed' by the existing .mil system (vs the .gov unions)

this would accomplish a number of goals and PROVIDE SOME ***REAL COMPETITION*** to the private sector scam.

it would also give jobs to the soon to be unemployed members of the services who will NEED TO BE CUT AS WE MUST SCALE BACK OUR FAR-FLUNG as well as outmoded military strategy (since we no longer possess the stomach/will to use it the way it was intended - you know, like in the 'good ole daze' - when the object of 'the game of war' was to WIN, by any means necessary - when today, the 'rules of engagement' virtually guarantee we will ultimately LOSE ANY REAL WAR, due to the overwhelming politically-correct hamstringing thats been foisted upon the greatest fighting force thats ever been created - and we wont even get into the havoc that repeal of 'dont ask, dont tell' has wreaked...)

any reason WHY this couldnt/wouldnt work??? - and a heluva lot better/CHEAPER than the nightmare the beltway sausage factory has spewed forth.

[vt]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenha...014-elections/

[vt]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

This argument is hogwash

Social Security is Old Age, Disability, and Survivors Insurance. You are NEVER supposed to commingle these premiums with general funds. There was also not a balanced pension and insurance investment strategy used (such as by state and local
Governments. I believe the OADSI is placed in Treasury bonds to earn interest.

The politicians also failed to act to keep raising the age of eligibility for drawing from social security and medicare. They knew that longevity was increasing. They just swept it under the rug. They think that "We do not want to know the truth" Of course their own, as well as the public unions of federal employees overly generous pensions, are protected by the taxpayer dollars.

Congress should never have been allowed to borrow from the trust fund. I do understand a national government needs to be able to on rare occasions exceed the annual revenues and run a deficit. The prime example is World War 2. ITulip has pointed out that the vast deficits and printing we have now is unprecedented, and not justified.

Over the next decade the currency will be threatened. If we do see the dollar replaced as the reserve currency we will see the dire result of political profligacy.

The real enemies are the politicians who have made promises that can't be kept and their special interests on both sides of the political spectrum who milk the system.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost. Inflation, which is a tax on the elderly and any saver, will not save them.

[lektrode]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

This argument is hogwash

Social Security is Old Age, Disability, and Survivors Insurance.....

The real enemies are the politicians who have made promises that can't be kept and their special interests on both sides of the political spectrum who milk the system.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost. Inflation, which is a tax on the elderly and any saver, will not save them.

ayuh, thats fer damn sure certain.
+1

[TBBNF]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

And how do we get it done, photon, without the aggregate demand necessary to get people in restaurants or the infrastructure investment by government to build and maintain new roads, sewers, etc if as always That seems to be the general consensus here among the two dozen or so frequent posters that dominate the discussion, as is the idea that government - even though law and statute empower it to do so - can not legitimately employ surplus labor in times of crisis. Nor it seems can it even legitimately provide relief to the poor and unemployed for fear of encouraging Even food aid is considered a "threat to the soul", it seems, given the recent cuts to SNAP. But where no combination of private and church effort could possibly address the numbers involved, what precisely are we as the to do about it, photon?

Yes, we can pray that our butts are miracled out of the problem. We can say it's god's will and judgement that the evil and prodigal get washed away in the flood for their idolatry. And we can take solace that we are among his elect. But I would think that both the clean and unclean have an interest in the ark surviving.

Except that in our present crisis, potential solutions are ignored because of a heady mixture of right wing political and social ideology, Calvinist and Dominionist theology, and discredited neocon economic theories whipped up on the back of napkins. This bounded way of thinking is precisely the way we got to where we are. What you fail to account for is that this point of view is very much part of the problem.

You seem to have some grasp of the big picture when you say

But what you can't seem to grasp is that these powerful individuals you identify are the very men promulgating the neocon, right wing claptrap that brought us here in the first place. And surely they do have the idolization and rapt attention of a group of people who consider themselves entitled indeed; entitled, that is, to dictate their religious and political theologies to the nation. The right wing has advanced the most retrograde social and economic policies and helped turn back the clock on 50 years of advances. And for what, to bring us back to some mythical golden age before society removed god from public life. How's that project going? The tragic part is that they got played by the neocons, who used them in their grab for authority and now the whole of the world is the worst for it.

If there is indeed "a quarter of the US population [who] are children in adult bodies" look to the acolytes of right wing ideologies and messianic religious cults. Like children, they demand that the nation make their faith based community into reality no matter the damage to the polity, civil society and our economy.

+1 !!

[TBBNF]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

This argument is hogwash


The real enemies are the politicians who have made promises that can't be kept and their special interests on both sides of the political spectrum who milk the system.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost. Inflation, which is a tax on the elderly and any saver, will not save them.

The unintended consequences of your libertarian dismantling of campaign finance is both parties have the same pay masters FIRE and despite those from Teabagistan thinking Obomber is a "socialist", he has continued the Bush 2/GOP policies pretty much to a T if not further. The only remaining difference between the parties is their social issue constituencies that help them get elected.

[LorenS]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

The unintended consequences of your libertarian dismantling of campaign finance is both parties have the same pay masters FIRE and despite those from Teabagistan thinking Obomber is a "socialist", he has continued the Bush 2/GOP policies pretty much to a T if not further. The only remaining difference between the parties is their social issue constituencies that help them get elected.

In Colorado we just had two recall elections where the Bloomberg money failed to achieve a victory. The voters are not obligated to vote for the highest funded candidate. The "paymasters" can still be voted against should the voters choose to do so. Campaign finance reform could only achieve so much in an environment of greedy voters. FIRE is heavily dependent on greedy borrowers.

Folks are so eager to assign blame to others that their own complicity gets ignored. If there weren't so many happy 99% ers feeding the beast it would not be nearly so large.

The honesty of the players is more important than the rules they play by. Until we learn this key fact we'll never succeed. The rules won't save us. Lack of rules is not the "cause" of our demise.

[TBBNF]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

In Colorado we just had two recall elections where the Bloomberg money failed to achieve a victory. The voters are not obligated to vote for the highest funded candidate. The "paymasters" can still be voted against should the voters choose to do so. Campaign finance reform could only achieve so much in an environment of greedy voters. FIRE is heavily dependent on greedy borrowers.

Folks are so eager to assign blame to others that their own complicity gets ignored. If there weren't so many happy 99% ers feeding the beast it would not be nearly so large.

The honesty of the players is more important than the rules they play by. Until we learn this key fact we'll never succeed. The rules won't save us. Lack of rules is not the "cause" of our demise.

While I love it when this happens and you see people rise above the BS to select the better candidate you can't make a 1-5% statistical anomaly a basis for saying the monied candidates can be defeated if only we have will and fortitude to overcome the barrage of propaganda that the money brings to all aspects of the media from television, to print, to the internet, and to the party machines who also get their money from the same groups. So yes you do need rules to level the playing field.

[flintlock]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

I recently had a calcium scan done as part of a heart check up. It is not covered by insurance. It cost $70 bucks. If it was covered by insurance I'm sure the 3 minute scan would have cost several hundred dollars. The third party payer system of insurance companies and the government has distorted the costs of medical care. Before private insurance and medicare most medical care was based on what people could afford to pay. I have a good company sponsored health plan. Most years unless I had a kid or a major surgery I was paying more in premiums than what I used in health care. A system where people pay for most routine car out of pocket and have a policy to cover major illness would be the way to go. Unfortunately between the doctors, government and insurance companies the costs of care are grosssly distorted.

Exactly. The current system is like shooting ducks in a barrel. The govt, doctors, hospitals, drug companies, and insurance companies are the shooters. We are the ducks. They have built a can't lose system for themselves and it will be hell to change it. Why should they? We are becoming nothing but slaves who only exist to pay into this system and its corprate-fascist counterparts in other industries. You are either in the club and benefitting from it or you are on the outside. More and more the way to success will be through the system or you can do it the hard way and EARN it.