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(Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

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  • #61
    Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

    Jonathan Tepper on Obamacare

    Dear friends,
    Please pardon this long email, but after reading endless drivel on Obamacare, I needed to write this.
    I'm afraid almost all discussions on the left and right regarding the Affordable Care Act (ACA) miss some very basic things. So I hope this email will explain a few economic ideas and put them into perspective for you, whether you're on the left or right and whether you like Obamacare or not.
    Before I do that, though, let me say that I'm a raging capitalist and I'm in favor of universal healthcare coverage. I'm indifferent as to having either (1) a 100% government-guaranteed single-payer system or (2) a 100% private solution where the government guarantees that the poor are fully covered. Each has its pros and cons. For countries like Spain and the UK, a single-payer national system works. (I've lived in both countries almost all my life, and their healthcare systems work. The only time I've ever paid $250 for an aspirin was in a US hospital.) On the other hand, private solutions work very well for Singapore and Switzerland. So one model is purely public, and it works; and the other is purely private, and it works. There is a lot of demand for healthcare, so you have to ration medical care via price or quantity. That's basic economics. It is for voters and politicians to decide what they prefer. I'm indifferent to the solution, as long as it is well thought out and implemented and in fact provides universal coverage. The problem is that the ACA takes the worst elements of public and private and fails to provide universal coverage for millions of people.
    Now, let's look beyond good intentions and see how the ACA works in practice.
    The main egregious problem with the ACA is that it increases concentration in the insurance and medical markets. It forces consumers to buy into oligopolistic and monopolistic marketplaces. Insurance and medical companies stocks have all gone up since Obamacare passed. (They've gone up twice as much as the S&P this year.) What these companies are all telling us is that the act is good for their business and good for their margins.
    Before the ACA, the US health insurance market was extremely uncompetitive, as thisarticle in the NY Times notes:
    As a general rule, the larger, more densely populated states have the most choice — and even the biggest insurer controls only a minority share of the market. According to statistics from the American Medical Association, the leading insurance provider in California covers 24 percent of the population, while in New York the figure is 26 percent and in Florida, 30 percent.
    But there are nine states where a single insurer covers 70 percent or more of the people. In Hawaii, one insurer covers 78 percent. In Alabama, it’s 83 percent. And in at least 17 other states one insurer covers at least half the population.
    Some members of the Senate Finance Committee, which is taking a lead on health care legislation, come from states where the insurance market is highly concentrated. The Democratic chairman, Senator Max Baucus, is from Montana, where 75 percent of people are covered by one major insurer, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Montana. For Senator Charles E. Grassley, Republican of Iowa, the figure is 71 percent, by Wellmark. For Senator Olympia Snowe, Republican of Maine, it’s 78 percent, by WellPoint.
    “For many Americans, the idea that they have a choice of health plans is about as mythical as unicorns,” said Jacob Hacker, professor of political science at Yale University.
    In theory, the ACA could have improved things, and many supporters think it does through exchanges. Unfortunately, it didn't. Under the Affordable Care Act there will be far fewer choices and less competition. Don't take my word for it; read this NY Timesarticle.
    Of the roughly 2,500 counties served by the federal exchanges, more than half, or 58 percent, have plans offered by just one or two insurance carriers, according to an analysis by The Times of county-level data provided by the Department of Health and Human Services. In about 530 counties, only a single insurer is participating.
    This is truly staggering, when you consider it. Citizens will now be forced to buy insurance from oligopolies and in many cases monopolies. They're not getting healthcare from the government; they're being forced to buy from private companies that have pricing power and market dominance. Insurance companies are still exempt from anti-trust supervision. This would never happen in other industries. You don't need to know anything besides basic economics to understand that oligopolies and monopolies are bad for consumers. Consider having to pay for phone services from one or two phone providers. (Wait, we already had that, and Ma Bell was broken up...)
    Medical companies are also exempt from fair pricing laws. If you go to a hospital, you'll get a different price depending on whether you're uninsured or Medicaid pays for you or your insurance pays for you. You can't drive into a gas station and be charged an arbitrary cost after you've filled your car, but you can be charged an arbitrary number by a hospital. (Imagine: a black, a WASP, and a Jew go to a gas station, and they all get different prices. Wait, we got rid of that injustice too...) In theory, the ACA fixes fair pricing laws, but it doesn't apply to most hospitals. See "Federal health law falls short of a goal" in the Boston Globe.
    In the 21st century, states still control and regulate insurance, which means fragmentation, very high barriers to entry, and local oligopolies. It is insane that the Federal government regulates banks at a national level via the Federal Reserve and the FDIC but allows insurers to have local market dominance. (The law that allows this is the 1945 McCarran-Ferguson Act.) If you're curious about how insurance companies are oligopolies, read here. And read this‪ … and this.‪
    You can ship and sell Coca Cola across state lines, but you can't sell insurance across state lines. Some argue that you could get one lax insurance regulator in North Dakota, and then insurance companies would all set up shop there and start selling across state lines. That has an easy solution: have one national regulator and let insurance companies compete across state lines.
    Not only is there a lack of competition among insurers, there is a lack of competition among hospitals. This has happened because antitrust policy has been so inadequate for so long in the health sector. See "Health Care Needs Stronger Market Forces" in Forbes.(Here is a more in-depth paper, if you're curious.)
    The problems that arise from a lack of competition are rife on the pharmaceutical and medical side as well. Obamacare will do almost nothing to change that. See "How a Cabal Keeps Generics Scarce" in the NY Times. It should come as no surprise that medical and pharma companies helped draft the ACA. Who said Congress won't turn a few tricks for the right price? See "ObamaCare's Secret History" in the WSJ.
    In theory, the ACA will control costs and won't let insurance companies and hospitals gouge us, but these types of regulations haven't worked in the past. Howard Dean is a doctor and a Democrat. His very thoughtful views on how pricing regulations haven't worked are presented here. If you think costs will fall and insurers won't profit, I've got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. The law is complex, badly written, and will be gamed. See "The Coming Clash over Insurers’ Compliance with Obamacare" from the Independent Institute and "HHS Releases Final Medical Loss Ratio Regulations" in the WSJ.
    I highly recommend you read Matt Taibbi's chapter on Obamacare in his book Griftopia. The book is highly worth buying and reading. It is informative, entertaining, and extremely infuriating. Your blood will boil after you read it. Taibbi establishes the point that the Affordable Care Act will screw Americans. This case is also made by the Institute of Economic Affairs, in "The scourge of Obamacare."
    In the United States, one of the most protuberant and harmful political myths — one shared by subscribers to almost all political persuasions — is the odd, naive idea that big business and big government are permanent antagonists. As a historical and empirical matter, of course, nothing could be further from the truth, a reality thrown into sharp relief by the political machinations underlying Obamacare. The new law is fundamentally anti-competitive and anti-small business, riddled with onerous regulations and handouts to favoured corporations. As usual, the relationship between big business and big government is not one of rivalry, but of symbiosis, routing genuine free markets in favour of collusion.
    The ACA won't cover everyone, and it will force people seeking coverage to buy from monopolists. Many people will get subsidies for their new insurance policies, and many people who didn't have coverage will now have coverage. This is great news. However, it would be hard to design a worse system if you tried. There are simpler ways by which we could have covered everyone without forcing people to participate in private oligopolies and monopolies.
    One of the biggest problems in the US are medical costs. We spend far more than any other country, almost twice the OECD average. This problem will not be fixed by Obamacare and indeed will only get worse due to the spiralling of price increases between insurance companies and hospitals, given the lack of competition.

    Source

    Furthermore, as you can see from this interactive table, we spend trillions of dollars more than other countries do, yet we don't achieve better outcomes.
    Chile, Hong Kong, and Singapore, for example, spend one fourth what we do and achieve better outcomes and longer lifespans. So spending more money isn't a solution. In fact, imagine what we could do if we cut our healthcare spending in half. We'd free up over a trillion dollars for other things. That's what economists call consumer surplus. Even in crazy Washington, where congressmen think money grows on trees, a trillion is a large number.
    In America one subject that is taboo is healthcare before death. Almost all healthcare costs are incurred in the last twelve months of people's lives. Modern medicine tends to delay natural death rather than extend healthy life. That is why doctors consume less healthcare than the average person. They understand what medicine can do and can't do. I highly recommend reading this article in the WSJ. Ask any doctor, and they'll confirm this.
    In a 2003 article, Joseph J. Gallo and others looked at what physicians want when it comes to end-of-life decisions. In a survey of 765 doctors, they found that 64% had created an advanced directive — specifying what steps should and should not be taken to save their lives should they become incapacitated. That compares to only about 20% for the general public. (As one might expect, older doctors are more likely than younger doctors to have made "arrangements," as shown in a study by Paula Lester and others.)
    Why such a large gap between the decisions of doctors and patients? The case of CPR is instructive. A study by Susan Diem and others of how CPR is portrayed on TV found that it was successful in 75% of the cases and that 67% of the TV patients went home. In reality, a 2010 study of more than 95,000 cases of CPR found that only 8% of patients survived for more than one month. Of these, only about 3% could lead a mostly normal life.
    Furthermore, 5% of patients create 50% of costs. These costs are all in the last days of life. See this article in Forbes.
    Dr. Susan Dale Block, Chair and Director of Psychosocial Oncology and Palliative Care at the Dana Farber Cancer Institute and Brigham and Women’s Health Care, recently shared some data with her colleagues. In the Archives of Internal Medicine, a study asked if a better quality of death takes place when per capital cost rise. In lay terms (because trying to explain the data and methodology requires about 100 IQ points that I don’t have) the study found that the less money spent in this time period, the better the death experience is for the patient.
    It seems that no matter how much money you use during that last year/month, if the person is sick enough, the effort makes things worse. A lot of the money being spent is not only not helping, it is making that patient endure more bad experiences on a daily basis. The patient’s quality of life is being sacrificed by increasing the cost of death.
    We will all die. There is no way around that. Until we have an adult conversation about how we die and recognize that we spend too much on medicine we don't need, we won't reduce our costs.
    Sorry for such a long email. These are a few brief thoughts on the key issues that the press neglects to mention. I'd have to write a book to discuss all the relevant issues. I've provided more links in the postscript to my email if you're curious about the problems of oligopoly, market concentration, and local regulation in the US insurance and healthcare sectors.
    While the US lines the pockets of insurance companies, I'll be enjoying the socialized medical system in the UK. My guess is that Obamacare has been made purposefully grotesque in order to make people clamor for a single-payer system. I'm sure the US will eventually get one. Personally, I think congressmen and -women are too stupid and venal to do anything good. Until then, we'll have to wait for the ACA to derail before we see any genuine reform.
    Best,
    Jonathan
    P.S. If you're curious about the problems of insurance, medicine, and oligopolies, you can read further.
    Regional monopolies
    The American Medical Association’s bi-annual survey of the nation’s health insurance marketplace, released Tuesday, found 60 percent of the nation’s metro areas where two insurers had a combined share of 70 percent or more of the market. That’s up from 53 percent two years ago.
    Dominant insurer market share
    Hospital oligopolies
    Increase in premiums under Obamacare
    Worst outcomes for mix of public and private
    Local competition
    Out of control oligopolies — how they're blowing up our medical budget
    Statistics on oligopolies
    Health Care for America Now! (HCAN) released a report in May that uses data provided by the American Medical Association to demonstrate that 94% — more than 9 out of 10 — of the country's insurance markets meet the Justice Department definition of "highly concentrated," in relation to the potential for anti-trust action. So extreme is the level of consolidation, that HCAN has sent a letter [Note: PDF file] to the Justice Department's Antitrust Division, asking it to investigate the state of the health insurance marketplace.
    The rest of the report's findings are every bit as striking:
    • In the past 13 years, more than 400 corporate mergers have involved health insurers, and the small number of companies that now dominate local markets haven’t delivered on promises of increased efficiency.
    • Shrinking competition has allowed the remaining firms to charge higher fees, and premiums have gone up more than 87 percent, on average, over the past six years.
    • Meanwhile, profits at ten of the country’s largest publicly traded health insurance companies rose 428% from 2000 to 2007, from $2.4 billion to $12.9 billion.
    • Consolidation of market share among a smaller number of insurers disproportionately disadvantages rural and lower population states. In Hawaii, Rhode Island, Alaska, Vermont, Alabama, Maine, Montana, Wyoming, Arkansas, and Iowa, the two largest health insurers control at least 80 percent of the statewide market.
    Fragmented regulation insurance. Also here. And here.
    Commerce clause and restraints of trade

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

      Originally posted by Penguin View Post
      In the end I honestly believe that we will be forced to go to what right leaning advocates call a "socialist solution"

      We won't do it out of ideology. We will do it out of necessity. The rest of the world is kicking our ass when it comes to health care costs. In a world where trade is global? We simply will not be able to afford this dysfunctional trainwreck.
      I think your answer is where we need to go, but I am not confident that we'll get there. There's too much money and power in the current configuration. If most of us can't get health care, nobody important will care. We can all go hang once we're no longer useful for wealth transfer.

      Originally posted by Mn_Mark View Post
      My friend's daughter had outpatient surgery on the tip of her finger when it got caught in a bike sprocket last year. Cost: $14,000.

      What changed between 1944 and 2013 to create such an increase in medical costs?

      Was it "unfettered capitalism" (i.e., people freely entering into mutually voluntary economic transactions with other people, without government interference or permission)? Was it a cutthroat medical marketplace where providers competed to win more customers by improving quality and cutting price?

      Or was it things like enacting huge new government entitlements with guaranteed payments like Medicare and Medicaid? Passing tax laws that encouraged health insurance to become something provided by employers instead of bought by consumers? Requiring all emergency rooms to give free care to whoever shows up at the door, with no limit to how many times they show up or how expensive the care is? Allowing juries to award massive punitive damage awards beyond all reason that drove up malpractice insurance through the ceiling? And all the other ways that government penalized success, picked favorites, rewarded cronies, and handed out new "entitlements" in the medical arena? What in the hell was "unfettered" about that?
      The answer is insurance companies -- the "provided by employers" aspect and the "massive damage awards" aspect and the "we're in the middle of every decision and transaction taking a cut" aspect. (Massive damage awards don't hurt the insurance company, they pass that along and raise rates.) I don't see Medicare and Medicaid driving up health costs. They pay into the health care industry.

      Originally posted by Mn_Mark View Post
      There's plenty of concrete, functional ways to get competition into the health care marketplace. It's actually very simple:

      - get rid of government health care entitlements. People buy their own medical care on the marketplace.
      - get rid of government mandates forcing hospitals to provide free emergency room care to whoever shows up without regard to ability to pay.
      - limit medical malpractice awards to some reasonable low figure. You take risks when you have a surgery, there's no way around that.
      - etc: simplify, eliminate government interference, eliminate tax laws that skew the marketplace.
      If you want something to cost less, you have to decide who's going to make less $$. The general practitioners aren't getting rich. They're getting squeezed between HMO pricing, student loans and malpractice insurance. The customer's paying too much and the provider is squeezing by. Who's left? The middle-man, Big Insurance and their massive profits. (Maybe big hospital groups, too. I don't know.) Edit: Oh, yeah. Drug companies.

      To me, the appealing part of single payer is getting the insurance companies out of the loop. (If we do it right, and we probably wouldn't.) You're right that the government is always less efficient. But there should be room to do better than what we've got now. Maybe they would mess up less than the $$ currently going to Big Insurance.

      I would like to see
      • upfront pricing,
      • insurance for the big stuff only,
      • pay-as-you-go doctor visits,
      • insurance disconnected from employment,
      • affordability, and
      • safety nets.


      I don't care if it's single payer or free market. But having the system get worse until we're forced into single payer is a conceivable path. I can't see a path to a free market system that meets those requirements. How do you make it happen?

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

        I'm afraid almost all discussions on the left and right regarding the Affordable Care Act (ACA) miss some very basic things. So I hope this email will explain a few economic ideas and put them into perspective for you, whether you're on the left or right and whether you like Obamacare or not.
        Before I do that, though, let me say that I'm a raging capitalist and I'm in favor of universal healthcare coverage. I'm indifferent as to having either (1) a 100% government-guaranteed single-payer system or (2) a 100% private solution where the government guarantees that the poor are fully covered. Each has its pros and cons. For countries like Spain and the UK, a single-payer national system works. (I've lived in both countries almost all my life, and their healthcare systems work. The only time I've ever paid $250 for an aspirin was in a US hospital.) On the other hand, private solutions work very well for Singapore and Switzerland. So one model is purely public, and it works; and the other is purely private, and it works. There is a lot of demand for healthcare, so you have to ration medical care via price or quantity. That's basic economics. It is for voters and politicians to decide what they prefer. I'm indifferent to the solution, as long as it is well thought out and implemented and in fact provides universal coverage. The problem is that the ACA takes the worst elements of public and private and fails to provide universal coverage for millions of people.
        Now, let's look beyond good intentions and see how the ACA works in practice.
        VT (Jonathan) started his post with this. As a retired actuary who priced health insurance I am in complete agreement with his entire post. I also agree that nothing else will happen until ACA crashes worst than it has so far.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

          I posted Jonathan Tepper's views, but I am not he. This was a part of Mauldin's weekly letter.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

            I think what they want to do is live in a Scandinavian-style "social democracy"
            So you don't believe there is a distinction, say between socialism and social democracy or liberalism. Except for emphasis, it's all pretty much the same stuff, no?

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

              There is a group of people who are entitled to free healthcare, free food, free housing; in fact they are entitled to free everything. These people are called children and they are legally entitled to their parents wealth just by virtue of birth. We can discuss all of the problems in our economy, including healthcare, and suggest changes both small and large, but the elephant in the room is that about a quarter of the US population are children in adult bodies. They never grew up. They have transferred their childlike trust and demands for freebies from their parents to the government. Life is hard, and they have decided that it's too hard for them, and someone else needs to take care of them.

              There is a smaller but much more powerful number of individuals who see the problem described above not as a great social tragedy, a dagger aimed at the heart of a free and civil society, but, as a (existential) crisis which presents an opportunity for self enrichment, self advancement, and self empowerment, all at the expense of that society and culture that nurtured and supposedly civilized them. But if a society idolizes sociopaths as heroes instead of shunning them and prosecuting them as criminals, does that society deserve to survive.

              As a practical matter the solution lies in less complexity, fewer regulations but strict enforcement, and a return to local control, mutual (user) ownership, and the absolute minimum of financialization.
              "I love a dog, he does nothing for political reasons." --Will Rogers

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

                Doctors pay is not really the problem. Its all the parasites that latch on to the system. Many physicians are underpaid in my opinion, for what they are asked to do. The awesome responsibility, long hours, massive investment in an education. But some are total whores and use that investment in education to justify to themselves milking the system for every nickel. Believe me, when the reward system ceases being adequate, people will cease becoming doctors. Some know they wouldn't like doing anything else. Its that simple. Obviously many still think the years of school and hard work are still worth it, for now....

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

                  There is a group of people who are entitled to free healthcare, free food, free housing; in fact they are entitled to free everything. These people are called children and they are legally entitled to their parents wealth just by virtue of birth. We can discuss all of the problems in our economy, including healthcare, and suggest changes both small and large, but the elephant in the room is that about a quarter of the US population are children in adult bodies. They never grew up. They have transferred their childlike trust and demands for freebies from their parents to the government. Life is hard, and they have decided that it's too hard for them, and someone else needs to take care of them.
                  I have to agree but so many just don't want to face this "uncomfortable truth". People have forgotten what its like to fail and suffer the full consequences. Thats only something that happened in history books.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

                    about a quarter of the US population are children in adult bodies. They never grew up. They have transferred their childlike trust and demands for freebies from their parents to the government. Life is hard, and they have decided that it's too hard for them, and someone else needs to take care of them.
                    But how do we ever get to less complexity, fewer regulations, local control, and mutual ownership with these useless eaters standing in the way? Really, they're already a surplus population dragging producers down with their demands for free everything, now they're actively empowering, enriching and advancing the interests of sociopaths and criminals and threaten to bring down the very existence of free and civil society. And if we don't get a handle on these children in adult bodies, can we as a society claim even the right to survive?

                    Serious stuff. But why stop at a quarter? Why not a third? Just to be sure we don't miss the stragglers. And now that we recognize the seriousness of the problem, now that we'v ID'ed the people responsible, what next? After all, it's an existential crisis; a dagger aimed at the heart. They're a threat to our existence, our society, heck, even our very right to have a society. What do we do about them?

                    You've made your theoretical judgement about this question, photon. Are you capable of drawing the conclusions they demand?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

                      With technology and enforcement of laws across all levels of society, I suspect it would only take 10% of the U.S. population to provide all necessities. Should we just let the rest die?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

                        Originally posted by Woodsman View Post
                        But how do we ever get to less complexity, fewer regulations, local control, and mutual ownership with these useless eaters standing in the way? Really, they're already a surplus population dragging producers down with their demands for free everything, now they're actively empowering, enriching and advancing the interests of sociopaths and criminals and threaten to bring down the very existence of free and civil society. And if we don't get a handle on these children in adult bodies, can we as a society claim even the right to survive?

                        Serious stuff. But why stop at a quarter? Why not a third? Just to be sure we don't miss the stragglers. And now that we recognize the seriousness of the problem, now that we'v ID'ed the people responsible, what next? After all, it's an existential crisis; a dagger aimed at the heart. They're a threat to our existence, our society, heck, even our very right to have a society. What do we do about them?

                        You've made your theoretical judgement about this question, photon. Are you capable of drawing the conclusions they demand?
                        Your implied judgement is seriously in error if you're suggesting that I would accept some type of even passive die off of people. But I believe there are some in positions of power and influence who wouldn't mind that at all. Also, your attempt to portray me as ID'ing the adult dependents as primarily responsible for all our problems is also your own wishful thinking. Adult dependents don't actively do much of anything except seek their own pleasure. It could be said that the most responsible are the leaders past and present, who used weak people to gain power, but anyone that saw the problem developing and ignored it shares a least a little in the problem.

                        How do we divide responsibility among members of a society for problems both past and present? The truly responsible adult members of a society do not attempt to divide it. They step up and accept responsibility for problems even though they are caused by others. They then do their best to deal with the problems. See Daniel Chapter 9 where he offers intercessory prayer on behalf of his people. Daniel repeatedly uses the pronoun "we" even though he was as yet unborn or a child when the Jews brought God's judgement on themselves due to their sin and corruption. He places himself between God and his people as it were while begging for God's forgiveness for them. Yet he was one of the most righteous men of all time, according to God Himself! This is what true adults do.

                        But no one should be under any illusion that there is not a price to be paid. Our society publicly removed God from our public life half a century ago. We didn't want Him in view unless we wanted to bring Him out for a little while to make us feel good. We turned our backs on God as a society. But our society as a whole had no other system of values to turn toward, unlike some other nations which never acknowledged Him as we once did. After more than two generations this moral vacuum has become a whirlwind of destruction. And no, I have no idea what is going to happen. While some claim that God is judging America, what I see is a more or less automatic correction taking place. Just as you can't break the laws of physics, neither can you truly break God's moral laws. But they will break you if you are so foolish as to ignore them! If, for the sake of justice, God should decide He has to judge us, I don't think He will leave us in any doubt about what He is doing.

                        The current healthcare crisis is part of a larger economic crisis, which has worsened due to increased statism. Concentrations of power in government, big business, and big everything have colluded to enrich and empower themselves at the expense of society as a whole. More government is not the answer. Corruption in government started the ball rolling, because what is government, but a group of people, and arguably some of the worst people. If they're still moral when they take power they have enormous pressure to conform to the corrupt environment. Honestly, I really don't see a good ending to what is going on now. But anyone who claims to be an adult and a moral person must do what they can. That may be running for office at one extreme, or only staying informed and trying to pass on little pieces of sanity to others as they may be willing to accept them. You just do whatever you can while you're living your life and trying to provide for your family.

                        If people don't learn the easy lessons of life, they will still have opportunities to learn the hard ones, but without any preparations. Entitlements at the level we have today are a very recent historical development, and they are only possible because of a large economic surplus by society as a whole. But the level of surplus we enjoy today is itself dependent on a somewhat fragile economic system. If there's a breakdown it would be nice if people acted like adults so that we could all work are way through it. But if some people already don't act like adults in the good times...
                        "I love a dog, he does nothing for political reasons." --Will Rogers

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

                          Originally posted by aaron View Post
                          With technology and enforcement of laws across all levels of society, I suspect it would only take 10% of the U.S. population to provide all necessities. Should we just let the rest die?
                          Everywhere I go I see work that needs doing: Roadwork and other infrastructure maintenance, new roads, sewers and water works, to buildings needing painting and trash being picked up. Some restaurant is always looking for a dishwasher or someone to mop floors. There will always be more work than can be done. Should we just let some work go undone because it's below our station?

                          Dependency fueled by easy access to entitlements is death. It destroys the soul before the body. It just takes longer to play out.
                          "I love a dog, he does nothing for political reasons." --Will Rogers

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

                            Originally posted by photon555 View Post
                            Your implied judgement is seriously in error if you're suggesting that I would accept some type of even passive die off of people. But I believe there are some in positions of power and influence who wouldn't mind that at all. Also, your attempt to portray me as ID'ing the adult dependents as primarily responsible for all our problems is also your own wishful thinking. Adult dependents don't actively do much of anything except seek their own pleasure. It could be said that the most responsible are the leaders past and present, who used weak people to gain power, but anyone that saw the problem developing and ignored it shares a least a little in the problem.

                            How do we divide responsibility among members of a society for problems both past and present? The truly responsible adult members of a society do not attempt to divide it. They step up and accept responsibility for problems even though they are caused by others. They then do their best to deal with the problems. See Daniel Chapter 9 where he offers intercessory prayer on behalf of his people. Daniel repeatedly uses the pronoun "we" even though he was as yet unborn or a child when the Jews brought God's judgement on themselves due to their sin and corruption. He places himself between God and his people as it were while begging for God's forgiveness for them. Yet he was one of the most righteous men of all time, according to God Himself! This is what true adults do.

                            But no one should be under any illusion that there is not a price to be paid. Our society publicly removed God from our public life half a century ago. We didn't want Him in view unless we wanted to bring Him out for a little while to make us feel good. We turned our backs on God as a society. But our society as a whole had no other system of values to turn toward, unlike some other nations which never acknowledged Him as we once did. After more than two generations this moral vacuum has become a whirlwind of destruction. And no, I have no idea what is going to happen. While some claim that God is judging America, what I see is a more or less automatic correction taking place. Just as you can't break the laws of physics, neither can you truly break God's moral laws. But they will break you if you are so foolish as to ignore them! If, for the sake of justice, God should decide He has to judge us, I don't think He will leave us in any doubt about what He is doing.

                            The current healthcare crisis is part of a larger economic crisis, which has worsened due to increased statism. Concentrations of power in government, big business, and big everything have colluded to enrich and empower themselves at the expense of society as a whole. More government is not the answer. Corruption in government started the ball rolling, because what is government, but a group of people, and arguably some of the worst people. If they're still moral when they take power they have enormous pressure to conform to the corrupt environment. Honestly, I really don't see a good ending to what is going on now. But anyone who claims to be an adult and a moral person must do what they can. That may be running for office at one extreme, or only staying informed and trying to pass on little pieces of sanity to others as they may be willing to accept them. You just do whatever you can while you're living your life and trying to provide for your family.

                            If people don't learn the easy lessons of life, they will still have opportunities to learn the hard ones, but without any preparations. Entitlements at the level we have today are a very recent historical development, and they are only possible because of a large economic surplus by society as a whole. But the level of surplus we enjoy today is itself dependent on a somewhat fragile economic system. If there's a breakdown it would be nice if people acted like adults so that we could all work are way through it. But if some people already don't act like adults in the good times...
                            I made no judgement, photon. I just took a ride on your train of thought.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

                              Originally posted by photon555 View Post
                              Your implied judgement is seriously in error if you're suggesting that I would accept some type of even passive die off of people. But I believe there are some in positions of power and influence who wouldn't mind that at all. Also, your attempt to portray me as ID'ing the adult dependents as primarily responsible for all our problems is also your own wishful thinking. Adult dependents don't actively do much of anything except seek their own pleasure. It could be said that the most responsible are the leaders past and present, who used weak people to gain power, but anyone that saw the problem developing and ignored it shares a least a little in the problem.

                              How do we divide responsibility among members of a society for problems both past and present? The truly responsible adult members of a society do not attempt to divide it. They step up and accept responsibility for problems even though they are caused by others. They then do their best to deal with the problems. See Daniel Chapter 9 where he offers intercessory prayer on behalf of his people. Daniel repeatedly uses the pronoun "we" even though he was as yet unborn or a child when the Jews brought God's judgement on themselves due to their sin and corruption. He places himself between God and his people as it were while begging for God's forgiveness for them. Yet he was one of the most righteous men of all time, according to God Himself! This is what true adults do.

                              But no one should be under any illusion that there is not a price to be paid. Our society publicly removed God from our public life half a century ago. We didn't want Him in view unless we wanted to bring Him out for a little while to make us feel good. We turned our backs on God as a society. But our society as a whole had no other system of values to turn toward, unlike some other nations which never acknowledged Him as we once did. After more than two generations this moral vacuum has become a whirlwind of destruction. And no, I have no idea what is going to happen. While some claim that God is judging America, what I see is a more or less automatic correction taking place. Just as you can't break the laws of physics, neither can you truly break God's moral laws. But they will break you if you are so foolish as to ignore them! If, for the sake of justice, God should decide He has to judge us, I don't think He will leave us in any doubt about what He is doing.

                              The current healthcare crisis is part of a larger economic crisis, which has worsened due to increased statism. Concentrations of power in government, big business, and big everything have colluded to enrich and empower themselves at the expense of society as a whole. More government is not the answer. Corruption in government started the ball rolling, because what is government, but a group of people, and arguably some of the worst people. If they're still moral when they take power they have enormous pressure to conform to the corrupt environment. Honestly, I really don't see a good ending to what is going on now. But anyone who claims to be an adult and a moral person must do what they can. That may be running for office at one extreme, or only staying informed and trying to pass on little pieces of sanity to others as they may be willing to accept them. You just do whatever you can while you're living your life and trying to provide for your family.

                              If people don't learn the easy lessons of life, they will still have opportunities to learn the hard ones, but without any preparations. Entitlements at the level we have today are a very recent historical development, and they are only possible because of a large economic surplus by society as a whole. But the level of surplus we enjoy today is itself dependent on a somewhat fragile economic system. If there's a breakdown it would be nice if people acted like adults so that we could all work are way through it. But if some people already don't act like adults in the good times...
                              +1

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

                                Originally posted by Woodsman View Post
                                But how do we ever get to less complexity, fewer regulations, local control, and mutual ownership with these useless eaters standing in the way? Really, they're already a surplus population dragging producers down with their demands for free everything, now they're actively empowering, enriching and advancing the interests of sociopaths and criminals and threaten to bring down the very existence of free and civil society. And if we don't get a handle on these children in adult bodies, can we as a society claim even the right to survive?

                                Serious stuff. But why stop at a quarter? Why not a third? Just to be sure we don't miss the stragglers. And now that we recognize the seriousness of the problem, now that we'v ID'ed the people responsible, what next? After all, it's an existential crisis; a dagger aimed at the heart. They're a threat to our existence, our society, heck, even our very right to have a society. What do we do about them?

                                You've made your theoretical judgement about this question, photon. Are you capable of drawing the conclusions they demand?

                                Human nature being what it is, people like free stuff. Most people vote for the politicians who promise them the most free stuff. But it's not free. They money used to pay for that free stuff is taken by force from working taxpayers. So people receiving unemployment bennies, food stamps, medicaid, etc. shouldn't be allowed to vote until they're off the dole. I don't think this should apply to war veterans.

                                Should SS beneficiaries be allowed to vote? One big complaint often heard by young people like Aaron here at iTulip is that baby boomers swelling the ranks of retirees are sucking up the wealth produced by the younger generation. On one hand, SS isn't a free handout. Recipients have earned their Social Security and their retirement, so they should have a right to vote. OTOH, just by dint of sheer numbers they can influence public policy to their benefit, to the detriment of the young who see a bleak future ahead of them. Should people who are past their productive years be allowed to have such a large influence on public policy decisions that will have lasting (and some say detrimental) effects on the generations that will follow them?

                                This is in no way intended to start a flame war, or be taken as an indication that I think elderly people or the less fortunate should just crawl into the woodwork and die. I'm just toying with possible solutions to the problem.

                                What would be the unintended consequences of such a policy? One that I can think of is that the disenfranchised could be truly, brutally screwed by the "haves" under this scenario. FIRE is turning the working middle-class into a large, unemployed underclass. My proposed solution would disenfranchise many people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own, thus skewing the vote towards the interests of the wealthy. So I don't know if it's a good idea or a terrible one.

                                There are constitutional issues to this as well.

                                Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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