(Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

[lektrode]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

POLL

30oct/13 - 1041edt

If you're 26 or older and your health insurance is about to double because you're not insured through your job, what would you do?

Take the penalty (1979)

44%

Buy insurance now anyway (817)

18%

Wait until I got sick to buy (1725)

38%

[TBBNF]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

Great article Don. Boy does that not show you what is wrong with Washington and Wall St. today in a nutshell with money and market fundamentalism corrupting all. Funny thing is if Bush/Romney pushed this through it would be lauded as a free enterprise break through in healthcare.....and the Dems would be screaming it is an Insurance Company giveaway (well at least in rhetoric until they got their campaign contributions)....

"All the shrieks aside, this Republican guy looking to make a killing from it is far more accurate than the shriekers understand". “It’s not a government takeover of medicine,” he told the crowd. “It’s the privatization of health care.”

"Scully then segued to his main point, one he has been making in similarly handsome dining rooms across the country: No matter what investors thought about Obamacare politically — and surely many there did not think much of it — the law was going to make some people very rich. The Affordable Care Act, he said, wasn’t simply a law that mandated insurance for the uninsured. Instead, it would fundamentally transform the basic business model of medicine. With the right understanding of the industry, private-sector markets and bureaucratic rules, savvy investors could help underwrite innovative companies specifically designed to profit from the law. Billions could flow from Washington to Wall Street, indeed."

[Mn_Mark]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

It should be no surprise that smart people find ways to make money from government-caused inefficiencies in the marketplace. If you lean towards statist solutions to social problems, you had better get used to this because you're never, ever going to get rid of it no matter how authoritarian and intricate the regulation you try to pass to stop it. At the end point of total government control and regulation of every possible aspect of the marketplace you get Kim Jong Un, who is just another kind of crook profiting from government control of the marketplace.

This is one of the fundamental flaws in the leftist understanding of the way the world works. They think they can design a system that will bend the free market in the direction they think is "fairer", but the free market simply flows around and through the myriad loopholes in their restrictions. The genius of the libertarian/right approach is to acknowledge that the free market is the best *possible* way of organizing things, and to stay out of the way as much as possible beyond protecting property rights. Those who are concerned about the poor are free to solicit donations for them and to organize charities to try to address their problems with voluntary measures. Those approaches that help will attract more donations and those that don't will disappear for lack of donations.

But because the left doesn't understand that their interferences in the marketplace can never work in the long run, their diagnosis of every problem that arises with their schemes is that the problems would disappear with just a little more regulation, just little more interference in the marketplace...and that therefore it must be the people objecting to even more interference that are the problem. Those damned Republicans, always preventing the virtuous Democrats from enacting that last little bit of regulatory fine-tuning that would achieve socialist paradise!

The Democrats controlled the House, Senate, and Presidency from 2008-2010 and could and did pass anything they wanted to. They forced Obamacare on the rest of us without a single Republican vote. Their idea of "compromise" was to do what they, the Democrats wanted ("We won," said Obama), and if you didn't want more interference in the health care marketplace - in fact if you wanted to free it up - you were the problem. The Democrats own this problem now. Everything about it is their responsibility. That's what happens when you pass massive new laws over the objections of the opposition. So man up and take responsibility for what you created instead of whining about how the Republicans are the ones who caused the problems here.

[TBBNF]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

As Adam Smith and others showed when you have unfettered capitalism you go to monopoly/oligolopy. Deregulating the SnLs in the 80s worked out great as has the deregulation of the commercial banking system under Clinton and others. Commodity markets are much more stable and acting as they should now that they are deregulated and Wall St. speculators are now creating 80-90 percent of the futures activities and wild price swings. Prior to Nixon creating the EPA the environment was in great shape with lake Erie self combusting and industry and the "market" regulating themselves. If you look at economic history the boom and bust cycle mirrors the deregulation of financial markets which leads to speculation and mis-allocation of capital. Now we have "deregulated" campaign finance and now we have unfettered lobbying and buying of politicians which in turn destroys democracy itself as monied interest now determines who is elected and who the "regulators" are which now creates fascist system of corporate oligopoly married to government i.e. you get things like the affordable care act. Eventually you end up with the libertarian paradise of Somalia.

[vt]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

Reasonable regulation makes excellent sense. It's over regulation that is a problem; this is just as bad as no regulation.

The problem with the AFC was that we had REGULATIONS IN PLACE THAT WERE IGNORED or stopped by political interests allied with FIRE. Who let banks and brokers go to 30 to 1 leverage? Who let Fannie and Freddie go to 60 to 1 leverage?
Who got rid of Glass Steagall? Who sponsored the policy of giving mortgages to people who had no way of meeting the payments. Hint, not much of George Bush.

We had regulations in place that WERE NOT BEING ENFORCED. It was the fault of BOTH political FIRE parties.

http://www.amazon.com/Reckless-Endan...chen+morgenson

[don]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

Don't forget the airlines. Before de-regulation flying was enjoyable and you could fly nonstop to any major city in America, not just the ever-shrinking hubs. Changing trip parameters didn't cost more than the initial ticket. There were skycaps at the curb. No charge for luggage. I tell ya man, it was awful. Thank god it was de-regulated. Now with an infinite number of competing airlines, it's a flyers paradise!

[cbr]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

i have never taken much time to study health care/insurance/government captive market industry, as the whole concept is so drastically pathetic that it does not bear study.

i do know that my grandfather made a wonderful life and a solid upper middle class living as a small town, no insurance, cash only physician for over 50 years, and that I used to pay cash for all my families medical needs.

it should come as no surprise to anyone, let alone this crowd, that allowing politicians to empower bureaucrats to require and supervise 'insurance' companies to sell 'basic medical care' to a captive audience created an absurd monster, which has only been made worse by the recent 'legislation'.

as is universally true, the politicians embed, the bureacrats overearn and micromanage, then play revolving door into the insurance industry, which squeezes the doctors, nurses and hospitals, killing their profitability and quality, and squeezes citizens, raising prices to pay for all the layers of interference.

shocker.

[aaron]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

I figured the huge monstrosity was designed to destroy the system. Once that is complete, a real system can be implemented.

It must be very, very bad before real change can occur.

[don]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

I figured the huge monstrosity was designed to destroy the system. Once that is complete, a real system can be implemented.

It must be very, very bad before real change can occur.

or another massive wealth transfer vehicle . . . housing is exhausted, savings drain well underway

[Penguin]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

In the end I honestly believe that we will be forced to go to what right leaning advocates call a "socialist solution"

We won't do it out of ideology. We will do it out of necessity. The rest of the world is kicking our ass when it comes to health care costs. In a world where trade is global? We simply will not be able to afford this dysfunctional trainwreck.

So I say this to anyone who believes that an unencumbered "free market" can provide a better product at a better price: Quit making excuses and start putting forth reasonable and functional solutions. For FAR too long the right has done nothing more than provide a few talking points while protecting the status quo.

Time's short gentlemen better make a start soon.

Will

[jpatter666]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

In the end I honestly believe that we will be forced to go to what right leaning advocates call a "socialist solution"

We won't do it out of ideology. We will do it out of necessity. The rest of the world is kicking our ass when it comes to health care costs. In a world where trade is global? We simply will not be able to afford this dysfunctional trainwreck.

So I say this to anyone who believes that an unencumbered "free market" can provide a better product at a better price: Quit making excuses and start putting forth reasonable and functional solutions. For FAR too long the right has done nothing more than provide a few talking points while protecting the status quo.

Time's short gentlemen better make a start soon.

Will

I (somewhat reluctantly) agree. In the end, what I am expecting is some level of national coverage. Perhaps optional riders for high-cost expenses or for a better level of care.

Healthcare is a disaster in the US -- my personal experiences with it have left me gnashing my teeth. And we have fairly platinum levels of coverage. I can only wonder what it must be like for those with basic or no coverage.

Part of the problem is that (at least in the US) there is this perception that everything can be fixed with the right pill. The pharmaceutical industry is out of control.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

... We will do it out of necessity. The rest of the world is kicking our ass when it comes to health care costs. In a world where trade is global.. We simply will not be able to afford this dysfunctional trainwreck.

All too true.
Back in 2007 I was senior staff and stockholder at a little manufacturing company with about 150 employees.
Our average employee was paid about $9 an hour.
Our contribution to our employee health insurance was $1200 / mo for a family plan.
So we spent $9/hr in wages and $7 an hour for insurance. By the way, it was awful insurance with huge deductibles and copays and low limits and caps.

We sold our products globally with major accounts in europe and asia. Our overseas competitors did not pay those high insurance premiums (directly).

[Penguin]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

jpatter666 and t&binohio,

I am glad we have a few folks that are at least open to making changes. It seems like we have spent so much time in the past decade criticizing the present without actually laying out concrete, functional, and politically possible improvements. I'm more of a pragmatist than an ideologue. Maybe that is why the thought of nationalized medicine does not scare me.

I don't see any reason America cannot learn from what other countries have done and incorporate some of their lessons. I also don't see a reason why we cannot incorporate things that would make the system more agreeable to our own situation at the same time. We'd have to run over some people to do it... but what the hell? No one says it will be easy.

Will

[DSpencer]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

jpatter666 and t&binohio,

I am glad we have a few folks that are at least open to making changes. It seems like we have spent so much time in the past decade criticizing the present without actually laying out concrete, functional, and politically possible improvements. I'm more of a pragmatist than an ideologue. Maybe that is why the thought of nationalized medicine does not scare me.

I don't see any reason America cannot learn from what other countries have done and incorporate some of their lessons. I also don't see a reason why we cannot incorporate things that would make the system more agreeable to our own situation at the same time. We'd have to run over some people to do it... but what the hell? No one says it will be easy.

Will

I'm guessing you won't be one of the people run over? Are you equally open to pragmatic solutions that nationalize whatever industry you work in?

[Penguin]

Re: (Un) Affordable Care Act - the Uncomfortable Truth

I'm guessing you won't be one of the people run over? Are you equally open to pragmatic solutions that nationalize whatever industry you work in?

I don't know, tbh.

But my heart lies with guys who actually produce things. My family is one that values the blue collar jobs where ~something~ is actually produced. I am an anomaly in that I am a white collar engineer. There isn't a group in the US that has been singled out for extinction like those who actually produce goods. To my way of thinking this group, more than any other, was the reason the middle class existed at all. Skilled trades. Builders. Engineers.

So after witnessing an all out war on them for a generation I am supposed to have mercy for an industry that has protected itself from the forces that have devastated mine? And has proven itself to be as parasitic as the finance industry ever dreamed of being?

No, this industry has a chance. It can embrace reform and quit fighting any and all attempts to inject some competition into the industry or it can accept the consequences. They can either get their costs in line with the incomes of the rest of America or they can become expendable. Those on the right say that they have solutions? Fine. Get them out, polish them off, and let's see how they work.

But if they can't or won't? Then we already have blueprints on how to bring health care costs into line.

Will