Goverment Motor's...new model

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

If there's a nat gas pipeline in your area with the capacity is building a CNG facility expensive? Seems like GM would put these bi fuel systems in their big SUV's and pickups first.

Interestingly enough, it looks like this has already started to happen :-)

This is an announcement from GM last year:

GM introduces new bi-fuel Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra during 2012 Work Truck Show week




Posted Mar 5th 2012 10:09AM

The 2012 Work Truck Show is going on in Indianapolis this week, and that brings with it a helping of alternative-powered truck news.

The first is General Motor's news about two new bi-fuel, CNG- and gas-powered trucks, the 2013 Chevrolet Silverado and the 2013 GMC Sierra 2500 HD. Both of these vehicles can burn either fuel in a Vortec 6.0-liter V8 engine, and GM promises that the on-the-go switch between the fuel types is "seamless." The trucks will be available towards the end of this year, with orders starting in April and, because they are given their dual-fuel nature by a Tier One supplier, will come with GM's three-year, 36,000-mile limited warranty as well as the five-year, 100,000-mile limited powertrain warranty. GM has other CNG-powered work vehicles available, like the Chevrolet Express and GMC Savana cargo vans that use the same engine.

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

I saw a vendor who does conversions of standard auto's to CNG at the county fair in the summer. I cannot remember the exact costs, but it was in the thousands of dollars per vehicle. The math worked out that if you drive a lot, and have a large vehicle you got pay back in a few years. Meaning if you drive a big sedan, miini-van or suv 50+ miles per day, in a few years the system would pay for itself if gasoline remains around $4.00 a gall. This setup included a home compressor system so you could charge your vehicle at home.

It seems like this could be done a lot cheaper if the system was built in from the factory than doing a retrofit.

Because there are no internal changes needed to the engines these conversions are not difficult or very expensive to do, and have been around for decades. Back in the mid-1980s the oilfield operation I was then responsible for had a fleet of 25 pickup trucks that had been converted to run on propane, and could be switched back to gasoline (an electric switch on the dash) anytime necessary if the propane ran out. The conversions were done by a local shop, the propane tank was mounted against the cab in the bed of the pickup. We had our own fueling station at our industrial yard just outside of town.

Yes, it should be much cheaper to install this stuff on the assembly line. And probably the assurance of a safer installation as the manufacturers have to meet all the safety and crash test requirements...particularly the location of the additional fuel tank.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

Thailand expects more than 25 % of cars and trucks to be running off fuel other than gasoline soon. LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) or CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) stations are everywhere in and around large and medium cities. Conversions for the former are low - 300 US $, the latter runs 1000 to 1500, but I pity the business owner trying to decide how to invest in a future fleet of vehicles.

Here’s a thread from 2 years ago, ancient for sure as far as this is concerned, but a quick perusal highlights a small bit of the politics, economics, and public confusion.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/...ancer-or-abel/


It is very interesting (for a bit) to talk to anyone buying a new car. You would think they are researching their dissertation.

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

Thailand expects more than 25 % of cars and trucks to be running off fuel other than gasoline soon. LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) or CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) stations are everywhere in and around large and medium cities. Conversions for the former are low - 300 US $, the latter runs 1000 to 1500, but I pity the business owner trying to decide how to invest in a future fleet of vehicles.

Here’s a thread from 2 years ago, ancient for sure as far as this is concerned, but a quick perusal highlights a small bit of the politics, economics, and public confusion.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/...ancer-or-abel/


It is very interesting (for a bit) to talk to anyone buying a new car. You would think they are researching their dissertation.

It's the typical chicken-and-egg situation. The fuel dealers need sufficient numbers of CNG vehicles on the road to justify the costs of fitting CNG fueling equipment at their sites. The private vehicle buyers don't want CNG vehicles unless there are enough CNG filling station sites to make it convenient.

In the USA and Canada the industrial and fleet conversions have been around for decades (taxi fleets and so forth), but the economics of cleaner, lower cost natural gas versus persistently expensive gasoline and diesel, and the growing perception that the gap isn't going to close any time soon if ever, are now driving both sides of this equation more aggressively towards the use of more gas-based fuels.

Although private vehicle fleets (passenger cars and trucks) are the most numerous and the largest transportation fuel market, it is also the most expensive and most difficult to serve. I think the gas fuel displacement of liquid fuel markets are going to continue to be built on industrial and commercial users first...and over time it will migrate into the private passenger car business. Instead of subsidizing millionaires who drive Teslas, and the likes of Cargill to produce uneconomic ethanol, maybe the govt should offer a small subsidy to expand the number of CNG refueling locations instead...

Not far from where I live Shell Canada has installed a small scale LNG manufacturing facility at one of their gas processing plants and is running some experiments with a few of the local trucking companies to use the fuel in bi-fuel equipped vehicles. There have been some problems with fuel handling (the LNG "shelf life" issue of boil off with time if the fuel isn't used quickly) and the savings have not been as high as the trucking companies had expected (the bi-fuel controller technology is improving though). LNG may some day be viable, but for now my bet is on CNG and LPG conversions.

[shiny!]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

GRG- Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a detailed answer to my question. I'm not so worried now about the flaring. But now all I can think of is ethane petrochemical feedstock?! WTH???

And my morning was going so well up until now.

[lektrode]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

GRG- Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a detailed answer to my question. I'm not so worried now about the flaring. But now all I can think of is ethane petrochemical feedstock?! WTH???

And my morning was going so well up until now.

its best not to think too much about this kind of stuff, ms shiny!, since lots of industrial process is less than 'pleasant' to think about (and THEN there's the 'sausage making process' inside the beltway, that if most understood what was REALLY going on there, there'd be protests daily in front of the capitol)

but without these processes, much of what we take for granted in the modern world would be nigh impossible, if not simply priced beyond what most could/would afford

whether that makes it 'bad' i guess is up to ones 'ideology'

i for one, prefer the citizen's choice vs the politically-driven, such as plastic bag bans (the problems of which would otherwise be eliminated by simply charging for them, vs banning them outright, which then results in need to purchase/landfill plastic trash bags instead of 'recycling' grocery bags by refilling them with trash/wet garbage)

adding: this is not to say i'm against sensible recycling/reuse - personally i think 100% recycling should be enacted immediately - and by .gov mandate - with funding to make it happen - lots of JOBS created in process - including fees on producers of stuff deemed 'difficult' to recycle - up to the point where its taxed till it IS economic to recycle, rather than simply landfilling it - and upto/including MINING of the existing landfills, to reclaim as much as possible from them

this is a politically difficult thing to comprehend for some and implementing would certainly be expensive, in the shorter term - but methinks the JOBS creation of implementation, coupled with the economic value of reclaim etc, would be economic in the longer term, plus the environmental benefits would make it a winner.

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

GRG- Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a detailed answer to my question. I'm not so worried now about the flaring. But now all I can think of is ethane petrochemical feedstock?! WTH???

And my morning was going so well up until now.

I don't know why you are concerned about ethane petrochemical feedstock? You and every other iTuliper use the products from these processes every day at home, work and elsewhere.

In the first step of the petrochemical process ethane is fed into a ethane cracker (process tower) that produces ethylene. The is then used to manufacture a whole variety of derivatives and common end products. These include poly-ethylene, a derivative that is used as the raw material to make plastic bags, packaging of various sorts, electrical cable insulation, numerous automotive components and injection-molded consumer products that all of use every day.

Mono-ethylene glycol is another derivative that is used to make polyester, fleece, carpet and upholstery fibres, PET (polyethylene terephthalate) for plastic drink containers (like all those bottled water and Gatorade containers) as well as engine coolants and anti-freeze.

[shiny!]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

I don't know why you are concerned about ethane petrochemical feedstock? You and every other iTuliper use the products from these processes every day at home, work and elsewhere.

In the first step of the petrochemical process ethane is fed into a ethane cracker (process tower) that produces ethylene. The is then used to manufacture a whole variety of derivatives and common end products. These include poly-ethylene, a derivative that is used as the raw material to make plastic bags, packaging of various sorts, electrical cable insulation, numerous automotive components and injection-molded consumer products that all of use every day.

Mono-ethylene glycol is another derivative that is used to make polyester, fleece, carpet and upholstery fibres, PET (polyethylene terephthalate) for plastic drink containers (like all those bottled water and Gatorade containers) as well as engine coolants and anti-freeze.

Does the word "feedstock" mean it's used to make the products you mentioned? No problem! I took it to mean it went into cattle feed.

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

Does the word "feedstock" mean it's used to make the products you mentioned? No problem! I took it to mean it went into cattle feed.

Ooops. Sorry to have caused you unnecessary concern. Yes, "feedstock" is industry jargon for the raw inputs to the manufacturing process. So, for example, one of the feedstocks to a refinery will be particular grades of crude oil that it is designed to process.

I think the name comes from the fact that often a "stock" or inventory of the raw materials needs to be kept available at all times to make sure there is always supply or "feed" for the continuous industrial process underway. Shutting down the plant because of a shortage of raw input materials isn't a good thing because these plants are complex and expensive to start and stop.

[shiny!]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

Ooops. Sorry to have caused you unnecessary concern. Yes, "feedstock" is industry jargon for the raw inputs to the manufacturing process. So, for example, one of the feedstocks to a refinery will be particular grades of crude oil that it is designed to process.

I think the name comes from the fact that often a "stock" or inventory of the raw materials needs to be kept available at all times to make sure there is always supply or "feed" for the continuous industrial process underway. Shutting down the plant because of a shortage of raw input materials isn't a good thing because these plants are complex and expensive to start and stop.

Learned something new- thank you!