Goverment Motor's...new model

[Mega]

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/10/new...chevrolet.html

Hmmmm next Summer.......could they "Know" something???
Mike

[lektrode]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

will be interesting to see if this one costs same/more than the volt...
which eye have seen for as low as 25k (new) vs the orig MSRP in the 40's

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

will be interesting to see if this one costs same/more than the volt...
which eye have seen for as low as 25k (new) vs the orig MSRP in the 40's

"New Bi-Fuel Option for 2015 Chevrolet Impala in the States, Runs on Gasoline or CNG"


This is a far more viable alternative than the over-hyped, expensive electric cars that USA politicos are so fond of subsidizing.

There are no internal modifications needed on these conventional gasoline engines so the unit cost of the conversion should be quite a bit lower than the cost of inventing a whole new hybrid or electric drivetrain, produced in small numbers like the Tesla for the country club set.

The interesting thing is that CNG bi-fuel systems for industrial diesel engines are really starting to catch on. In both the USA and Canada oil drilling rigs and diesel driven electrical generators are being retrofitted with bi-fuel kits that allow anywhere from 30% to 60% of the diesel fuel to be displaced with natural gas.

Both CAT and Cummins are now catching up with the aftermarket retrofit bi-fuel kit makers. They are doing their own retro-fits, but working to shortly introduce their own OEM bi-fuel engines, starting with their large stationary units (used for power generation and so forth). In time the smaller, mobile engines of the type used on drill rigs will be OEM equipped. From the CAT website:

CATERPILLAR DUAL FUEL TECHNOLOGY POWERS SOUTHWESTERN ENERGY COMPANY

For Worldwide Release: September 2013
Release Number: GP19PR6

Installation of Dynamic Gas Blending Kit Leads to Significant Fuel Savings, Zero Downtime in Operation

Houston, TX – When Southwestern Energy Company (NYSE: SWN) was searching for an innovative dual fuel solution to improve drilling efficiency, they turned to Caterpillar Oil and Gas and the Cat® Dynamic Gas Blending (DGB) kit to implement dual fuel technology into their operations. “For our team, it was essential we find an OEM capable of not only providing an advanced dual fuel product; we wanted to partner with a company that could commit to providing around-the-clock support and resources. Caterpillar and Cat Dealer Riggs Cat were able to do that for us.” noted Marty Carley, Vice President SWN Drilling Services.

Southwestern Energy installed 2x Cat 3512C generator sets with EPA-approved Dynamic Gas Blending kits on a rig operating in the Fayetteville Shale. Featuring a 60 hz, 1.0 eMW (1477 hp) drilling rating, the Cat dual fuel solutions powered the drilling of eight wells over the course of 45 days saving Southwestern Energy greater than an estimated $100,000 in fuel costs. Key factors into realizing these savings were 100% availability of gas and no increased unexpected downtime. Commenting on the significant savings encountered as a result of implementing the DGB kit Carley said, “If we can keep natural gas utilization at current levels, we believe we are looking at about an eight month pay back of investment. This is taking in to account the cost of building and maintaining a scrubber skid and all the natural gas lines required to hook the system together.”

Installation proved to be a seamless transition. “For us the DGB system was as easy to operate as hooking up a gas line. Nothing else changes in set-up, operating or engine maintenance with the exception of changing gas filters and right now we are expecting to do that about every 6 months, Carley said. “Set up after rig move is easy as well, with a scrubber skid moved to the location prior to the rig’s arrival.”

The Cat DGB system is CARB-certified for use with fuels with a Lower Heating Value (LHV) of between 905 BTU/scf to 1250 BTU/scf, giving operators a wide range of fuel options while meeting Tier 2 emission levels. Additionally, the Cat DGB system was recently approved by the EPA as a field fix that allows the installation of the DGB kit to convert the diesel engine to run on a combination of diesel/natural gas. This field fix was approved and implemented in accordance with 40 CFR Part 89 and Circular 2B dated March 1975. The EPA approval applies to the DGB kits for land drilling and well stimulation applications. For Southwestern, CARB certification proved to be a key differentiator in their choice to utilize Cat dual fuel technology. “Maintaining OEM emissions certifications is really important to us.” Carley said. “It is critical that we stay within the guidelines and preferable that we’re exceeding them...

This week up here in western Canada the price of retail diesel is 12 times the equivalent natural gas. That is a huge spread. Even if natural gas prices triple from here it will still be wildly economic to do the conversion for most industrial diesel engine users. But for those thinking of buying a Chevy bi-fuel be assured that your friendly government will close the gap...there is no way that increasing use of natural gas in private vehicles is going to escape some sort of road tax...just too tempting...

Edit added: CNG (compressed natural gas) has some advantages over alternative gas fuels. It is no where near as expensive to manufacture as gas-to-liquids (GTL) fuels and it does not have the shelf life problems of LNG, which tries to boil off as the storage container heats over time. The primary downside to CNG is the energy density is much lower than GTL, LNG or conventional motor fuel gasoline or diesel, and that limits the range over which it can be transported from source to point of consumption. Too long a range and the cost of moving it is more than the value of the CNG fuel in the tanker.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

"New Bi-Fuel Option for 2015 Chevrolet Impala in the States, Runs on Gasoline or CNG"


This is a far more viable alternative than the over-hyped, expensive electric cars that USA politicos are so fond of subsidizing.

There are no internal modifications needed on these conventional gasoline engines so the unit cost of the conversion should be quite a bit lower than the cost of inventing a whole new hybrid or electric drivetrain, produced in small numbers like the Tesla for the country club set.

The interesting thing is that CNG bi-fuel systems for industrial diesel engines are really starting to catch on. In both the USA and Canada oil drilling rigs and diesel driven electrical generators are being retrofitted with bi-fuel kits that allow anywhere from 30% to 60% of the diesel fuel to be displaced with natural gas.

Both CAT and Cummins are now catching up with the aftermarket retrofit bi-fuel kit makers. They are doing their own retro-fits, but working to shortly introduce their own OEM bi-fuel engines, starting with their large stationary units (used for power generation and so forth). In time the smaller, mobile engines of the type used on drill rigs will be OEM equipped. From the CAT website:

CATERPILLAR DUAL FUEL TECHNOLOGY POWERS SOUTHWESTERN ENERGY COMPANY

For Worldwide Release: September 2013
Release Number: GP19PR6

Installation of Dynamic Gas Blending Kit Leads to Significant Fuel Savings, Zero Downtime in Operation

Houston, TX – When Southwestern Energy Company (NYSE: SWN) was searching for an innovative dual fuel solution to improve drilling efficiency, they turned to Caterpillar Oil and Gas and the Cat® Dynamic Gas Blending (DGB) kit to implement dual fuel technology into their operations. “For our team, it was essential we find an OEM capable of not only providing an advanced dual fuel product; we wanted to partner with a company that could commit to providing around-the-clock support and resources. Caterpillar and Cat Dealer Riggs Cat were able to do that for us.” noted Marty Carley, Vice President SWN Drilling Services.

Southwestern Energy installed 2x Cat 3512C generator sets with EPA-approved Dynamic Gas Blending kits on a rig operating in the Fayetteville Shale. Featuring a 60 hz, 1.0 eMW (1477 hp) drilling rating, the Cat dual fuel solutions powered the drilling of eight wells over the course of 45 days saving Southwestern Energy greater than an estimated $100,000 in fuel costs. Key factors into realizing these savings were 100% availability of gas and no increased unexpected downtime. Commenting on the significant savings encountered as a result of implementing the DGB kit Carley said, “If we can keep natural gas utilization at current levels, we believe we are looking at about an eight month pay back of investment. This is taking in to account the cost of building and maintaining a scrubber skid and all the natural gas lines required to hook the system together.”

Installation proved to be a seamless transition. “For us the DGB system was as easy to operate as hooking up a gas line. Nothing else changes in set-up, operating or engine maintenance with the exception of changing gas filters and right now we are expecting to do that about every 6 months, Carley said. “Set up after rig move is easy as well, with a scrubber skid moved to the location prior to the rig’s arrival.”

The Cat DGB system is CARB-certified for use with fuels with a Lower Heating Value (LHV) of between 905 BTU/scf to 1250 BTU/scf, giving operators a wide range of fuel options while meeting Tier 2 emission levels. Additionally, the Cat DGB system was recently approved by the EPA as a field fix that allows the installation of the DGB kit to convert the diesel engine to run on a combination of diesel/natural gas. This field fix was approved and implemented in accordance with 40 CFR Part 89 and Circular 2B dated March 1975. The EPA approval applies to the DGB kits for land drilling and well stimulation applications. For Southwestern, CARB certification proved to be a key differentiator in their choice to utilize Cat dual fuel technology. “Maintaining OEM emissions certifications is really important to us.” Carley said. “It is critical that we stay within the guidelines and preferable that we’re exceeding them...

This week up here in western Canada the price of retail diesel is 12 times the equivalent natural gas. That is a huge spread. Even if natural gas prices triple from here it will still be wildly economic to do the conversion for most industrial diesel engine users. But for those thinking of buying a Chevy bi-fuel be assured that your friendly government will close the gap...there is no way that increasing use of natural gas in private vehicles is going to escape some sort of road tax...just too tempting...

Edit added: CNG (compressed natural gas) has some advantages over alternative gas fuels. It is no where near as expensive to manufacture as gas-to-liquids (GTL) fuels and it does not have the shelf life problems of LNG, which tries to boil off as the storage container heats over time. The primary downside to CNG is the energy density is much lower than GTL, LNG or conventional motor fuel gasoline or diesel, and that limits the range over which it can be transported from source to point of consumption. Too long a range and the cost of moving it is more than the value of the CNG fuel in the tanker.

Hey, thanks for that, GRG55. I had no idea the bifuel option was coming up for passenger vehicles. That actually seems like a viable way to natural gassify the transportation sector beyond the heavy trucking fleets that may switch over if the economics work right.

[photon555]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

If there's a nat gas pipeline in your area with the capacity is building a CNG facility expensive? Seems like GM would put these bi fuel systems in their big SUV's and pickups first.

[Mega]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-Ne...S-by-2016.html

Mike

[Southernguy]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

Argentina has used CNG in passenger vehicles for several decades now. You can transform a car from gas only to gas-CNG (you can switch between the two fuels) for a couple of thousand dollars. There is also a net of service stations that deliver CNG. The problem is that they are now (last 10 years mainly) running shor of NG.
They are importing growing amounts of it at specially high prices: LNG at $15 per MMBTU. So they are developing their vast shale gas (and oil) reserves. Wait and see how succesful they are at this.
The USA risks the same problems but, maybe, in a shorter span. It all depends on how much the fracking adventure lasts.

[shiny!]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

What is the cost for a fill-up and range in miles for a tank of CNG, as compared to a tank of gasoline?

Are oil fields still flaring off natural gas, or is it being collected and stored?

[lektrode]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

What is the cost for a fill-up and range in miles for a tank of CNG, as compared to a tank of gasoline?

Are oil fields still flaring off natural gas, or is it being collected and stored?

guess we should hope so, but methinks its not economical to salvage most of it?

and eye have been seeing prices in the 1.50-2bux range per GGE (gal of gasoline equiv)

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

If there's a nat gas pipeline in your area with the capacity is building a CNG facility expensive? Seems like GM would put these bi fuel systems in their big SUV's and pickups first.

If you have piped natural gas to your home there are CNG refueling compressor kits that will do a slow fill during the night. They currently cost about $8000 to buy and install, but the prices are coming down. To build a commercial scale refuelling station can cost anywhere from $800,000 to $2 million and up, depending on how many cars are expected to be refueled at one time and how fast. Many of these are probably going to be co-located at existing gas station sites.

I expect we'll see pickups with them very shortly. The energy industry is a big purchaser of pickup trucks for field operations and quite a few of them are putting in CNG field stations to supply gas to their drilling rigs so they are a natural customer for such trucks. Apache Corporation has been experimenting with bi-fuel systems on their high-horsepower frac spreads (which use a lot more diesel than the drilling rigs).

I suspect GM's decision to try it on a sedan first is that they want to create a differentiation for their product in that high volume competitive category (against Toyota, Ford, etc.).

Lots going on in this area in the USA and Canada right now. Here's another bit of info from CAT:

Dynamic Gas Blending (DGB)

Caterpillar Dynamic Gas Blending (DGB) is a dual fuel technology that uses existing gas engine hardware to allow Caterpillar diesel engines to burn natural gas and save owners significant fuel costs while maintaining diesel engine performance levels.

Caterpillar designed kit hardware includes the gas fuel system components, engine controls and software, sensors, valves and brackets. This technology is a positive build design with additions to the existing diesel engine and no change to diesel engine components.

These engines can be run on diesel or a combination of diesel and gas. In a dual fuel engine, the diesel acts as an igniter to get the gas to ignite inside the combustion chamber. These engines are started as a pure diesel engine and as the inlet air temperature rises, natural gas is injected into the cylinder from an additional intake valve. As the natural gas is injected, the amount of diesel being consumed is reduced.
Caterpillar will offer emissions capable DGB kits for both existing engines on a retrofit basis and on new engines from the factory in a variety of applications.

As the quantity and quality of the natural gas changes, the sophisticated DGB control software adjusts the engine control to accommodate and dynamically adjusts the amount of gas or diesel fuel. It automatically detects gas presence, gas quality and gas pressure to optimize fuel savings while maintaining engine performance and protection.

Advantages of Caterpillar DGB Kits are as follows:

• Significantly lower fuel costs with up to 70 percent replacement of diesel fuel with gas
• Fuel flexibility of dual fuels so operator can use gas when available and diesel when it is not
• Continuously adjusts engine operation during changing gas supply quality and pressure conditions
• Maintain diesel power, transient response and torque performance while burning gas
• Maintain engine service intervals and component life
• Meet emissions requirements
• Designed and offered by the original engine manufacturer

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

What is the cost for a fill-up and range in miles for a tank of CNG, as compared to a tank of gasoline?

Are oil fields still flaring off natural gas, or is it being collected and stored?

In Canada different Provinces have different regulations for flaring. Where I live in Alberta flaring is extremely limited, strictly enforced and the penalties are high. Next door in Saskatchewan the government has brought in regulations similar to Alberta but is slow to phase in enforcement...but it is coming. The government of Saskatchewan just audited 22 oil companies and all 22 failed as they were under-reporting their flare volumes. So I think the hammer is about to drop there too.

In North Dakota it is the wild west. Google a night satellite picture of the Bakken oil field (near Williston) and it is a pool of light in that part of the state. Some of it is from the drilling rig and production facility lights, but many of the point sources are the gas flares. Texas is not that much different. Word is that the EPA is going to introduce a flaring ban on Jan 1 2015.

[shiny!]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

In Canada different Provinces have different regulations for flaring. Where I live in Alberta flaring is extremely limited, strictly enforced and the penalties are high. Next door in Saskatchewan the government has brought in regulations similar to Alberta but is slow to phase in enforcement...but it is coming. The government of Saskatchewan just audited 22 oil companies and all 22 failed as they were under-reporting their flare volumes. So I think the hammer is about to drop there too.

In North Dakota it is the wild west. Google a night satellite picture of the Bakken oil field (near Williston) and it is a pool of light in that part of the state. Some of it is from the drilling rig and production facility lights, but many of the point sources are the gas flares. Texas is not that much different. Word is that the EPA is going to introduce a flaring ban on Jan 1 2015.

How significant a percentage of our natural gas is being flared off as a waste product? Isn't it foolish to waste it? Given the economic hardships that a PCO world is going to face, isn't this kind of waste insane, or am I worrying too much? (worrying is one of my greatest talents)

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

How significant a percentage of our natural gas is being flared off as a waste product? Isn't it foolish to waste it? Given the economic hardships that a PCO world is going to face, isn't this kind of waste insane, or am I worrying too much? (worrying is one of my greatest talents)

It is not a very big percentage of total natural gas production. Most gas production is from natural gas reservoir deposits. This gas is not flared because if there are no facilities to produce it (gathering system pipelines and processing plant capacity), or there is no market for the gas it simply remains shut in.

The vast majority of the gas that is being flared is the gas associated with oil production. The oil is very valuable (~ $100/bbl) and can be produced into a tank on the well site and trucked away, so unlike gas there are minimal facilities needed. Most oil wells produce associated or solution gas, that evolves out of the oil as it is produced from the reservoir. In most developed oilfields there are separate gathering systems and other facilities to conserve the gas and process it into valuable and usable end products (methane gas fuel, ethane petrochemical feedstock, propane, butane and naptha/condensate/natural gasolines).

The current problem is that the unconventional drilling frenzy underway in the USA and Canada is creating a problem with capacity in the gas gathering system pipelines and processing plants...it takes time and money to build more of them. In the meantime the producers want to flow the oil and governments (most with too much debt and spending commitments) want the lucrative tax and royalty revenues that come from the oil industry. So most governments don't enforce their own rules and the producers (mostly the small independents and private operators) flare the gas. Interestingly enough the larger companies, like Shell, have corporate policies to NOT do that. Hence they tend to be the "better citizens" because they leave their oil wells shut in until they have installed the pipe and equipment to conserve the associated gas.

This is one of the reasons that Shell states that a lot of their unconventional assets are less economic than they expected, and the little one-man-oil-companies running around North Dakota, West Texas and Saskatchewan say they are wildly economic. The government and the press never go after the good-'ol-boyz because...well...because they're good-'ol-boyz. Check out the Boards of the local Chambers of Commerce and who is on town council in these little oil boom towns ;-)

I am directly involved with and invested in a small private company that, among a suite of services, provides oil well flare conservation services for stranded and flared gas. We are finding that unless the government enforces its own anti-flaring regulations there is no business from the ma-and-pa companies, and only the multinational majors are prepared to pay for what we do.

[GRG55]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

guess we should hope so, but methinks its not economical to salvage most of it?

It is not economical based on the value of the small amount of gas from individual wells. But the aggregate gas from an entire field yields considerable value. So does an individual well if the government actually enforced its own flaring regulations (see my post on this thread in answer to shiny!). Producers can pay for a lot of flare gas conservation if they have to shut in their oil because they are polluting the air by flaring the associated gas...

and eye have been seeing prices in the 1.50-2bux range per GGE (gal of gasoline equiv)

That sounds about right. The major costs are gas supply purchase costs and the capital and operating costs for the compression equipment to raise it to a high pressure for the CNG vehicle tank.

[charliebrown]

Re: Goverment Motor's...new model

I saw a vendor who does conversions of standard auto's to CNG at the county fair in the summer. I cannot remember the exact costs, but it was in the thousands of dollars per vehicle. The math worked out that if you drive a lot, and have a large vehicle you got pay back in a few years. Meaning if you drive a big sedan, miini-van or suv 50+ miles per day, in a few years the system would pay for itself if gasoline remains around $4.00 a gall. This setup included a home compressor system so you could charge your vehicle at home.

It seems like this could be done a lot cheaper if the system was built in from the factory than doing a retrofit.