Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
This Is Getting Embarassing!
Collapse
X
-
Re: This Is Getting Embarassing!
Originally posted by dcarrigg View PostI think this entire post is a huge misconception, and is greatly distorting what people who disagree with you actually mean. There's a big difference between political liberalism and socialism. The gulf is probably as wide as the gulf between conservatism and fascism. And the gulf is probably less wide than the gulf between libertarianism and anarchism. I have never met a self described liberal who argued for public ownership of the means of production (socialism).
So, liberals too take a free market approach. They just don't necessarily take a completely unregulated free market approach. This is particularly true in markets that are either natural monopolies (public utilities etc.), extremely price and income inelastic markets (emergency care, etc.), and things that are considered to be public goods (public schools, water etc.).
Now you might find some liberals who believe healthcare is a public good, and maybe even a majority would agree. But I think you'd find they'd be split.
The problems liberals see with the privatization wave that has been marching forward since 1980 are three fold:
#1: Things that make no sense to privatize get privatized. So prisons go private. But prisons only have one customer - the state. So what kind of free market is that? And predictably, prisons end up getting built on speculation for new inmates in California. Not good. Then major cities like Chicago sell their parking off to Morgan Stanley. And, quite predictably, nobody can park and regular people get charged huge fines that go right into NY bankers' pockets. Selling the city's parking spaces to a bank doesn't create competition in the parking market. It's just kleptocracy. (PS, it can get scary to liberals - this is why when W. hired Blackwater it worried so many - privatizing the military means now there are private people with legitimate use of deadly force and zero public oversight).
#2: Things that need to be regulated go unregulated. Social liberals in America are split on this. I think there's a fair majority of liberals now who think Clinton's deregulation activities went far too far and Obama hasn't gone far enough. These are your restore glass-steagall, increase capital requirements, force bank transparency, question the existence of some overly complex & opaque financial products etc. people. The Rubin wing of the democratic party might be popular in the ivies, but not on the street. I think the main argument against deregulation here has 2 points, firstly that finance is too powerful and financialization actually harms the rest of the economy, and secondly that the lack of regulation leads to a lack of transparency which leads to illegal scams that no one can keep track of simply because nobody is keeping track. There are no liberals arguing to re-regulate the airlines, so far as I know.
#3: Arguments in favor of privatization are often made on faith-based terms. Liberals tend to want regulation in reaction to what they see as market failures, not just for no reason. Liberals don't believe blindly that markets are incapable of failing as some libertarians might. In fact, liberals aren't entirely sure that a market with one customer is in fact a "free" market, or that a market with one seller is in fact a "free" market, or that a market with no physical goods and only unexplainable intangible products sold by intermediaries to intermediaries is in fact a "free" market. Right-wing libertarians tend to believe that all you need for a "free-market" is to get government "out of the way." But that's not a good definition. So liberals bring these problems up. And inevitably libertarians blame the government - and the government is naturally always involved - because the act of privatization requires taking something that the government owned and giving it to some non-government entity. But that doesn't mean that private prisons are better for your town or your state, or that they save taxpayers any money, or that they are moral, in the eyes of a liberal.
But the mere fact that right-wing folks, both conservatives and libertarians, often believe that specific objections to privatization are the same thing as socialism is a problem. Because it is not the same thing. Not even close. Socialism in America has become another faith-based word. It is ill-defined and just used to smear, and this has been the case for 100 years. So people walk around going "free market good; socialist bad" but they don't even define free market in any sensible way and they certainly don't define socialism - a concept with a clear inventor - as Marx did.
If the founders of America had used the phrase "free market" things might be different. They didn't. And the term "free market" is very hard to define. People are so interested in capturing the concept for their own political movement that nobody has ever settled on a definition. I can go to the store and buy one of 20 types of Ibuprofen. But the FDA examines and regulates them. Is that a free market? A liberal and a conservative might say yes. A libertarian might say no. I can operate a factory and sell goods in almost any country around the world, but I can't hire a 5 year old for $1 per week. Would my factory be free market? Again, I think liberals would say yes. Libertarians would say no. And conservatives might fall somewhere in between.
So, let me try to be more clear here, and work towards a definition of free market.
Minimalist definition: If there exists an arena - real or imaginary - where goods & services - real or imaginary - are sold and prices for goods & services are set by buyers and sellers, then there exists a free market.
Libertarian definition: If there exists an arena - real or imaginary - where goods & services - real or imaginary - are sold and prices for goods & services are set by buyers and sellers, then there exists a free market, if and only if government doesn't get involved in any part of the process whatsoever.
Conservative definition: If there exists an arena - real or imaginary - where goods & services - real or imaginary - are sold and prices for goods & services are set by buyers and sellers, then there exists a free market, if and only if it follows community standards. Minimal rules may govern the process, and should be enforced to maintain tradition, family and a sense of place and community.
Liberal definition: If there exists an arena - real or imaginary - where goods & services - real or imaginary - are sold and prices for goods & services are set by buyers and sellers, then there exists a free market, if and only if transactions are not coerced. Sellers typically have a natural upper hand. Rules to govern the process that increase fairness, decency, honesty and transparency to ensure prosperity for all involved (buyers, sellers, laborers, etc.) are welcome.
These might be the three different ways people in America are thinking about the term "free market." But notice that under no circumstance is the liberal asking for a government takeover of all industry.
There are two reasons why a liberal might think that public provision of a specific good or service is more efficient than markets. They are as follows:
1) It's a natural monopoly. If there's one reservoir and pipe system delivering water to town, it doesn't make sense to give someone the power to charge whatever profit margin they want on it.
2) It's a nearly perfectly price and income inelastic market providing a public good. This is the healthcare argument. Poor people with no money who have a heart attack are going to be rushed to the hospital and given heart surgery whether or not they have money and regardless of the cost. There is no other choice. If the 'efficiency' or 'magic' of markets is in price setting, then the more price inelastic a market is, the less useful a market is. When buyers have no ability to negotiate prices with sellers in a free market because they are quite literally dying, then there is no real free market to a liberal. When the state has to pay for a poor man's heart attack surgery anyways because it is not willing (and shouldn't be willing) to just let people die without trying to help, then the "free market" in healthcare is merely an illusion anyways.
As I've said before on here, I'm a business owner. I don't hate business. My political views are also to the left. I don't want the state to just take my business away. This idea that liberals are socialists is absurd.
I do question whether some markets are actually efficient, though. Especially finance and insurance markets. And I resist the idea that in order for one to believe that free markets work pretty damn well for physical goods that one must also believe that free markets always work just as well for intangible "goods."
An intangible "good" like a financial product or an insurance policy is not in fact a good at all. In reality, an intangible "good" is nothing more than an agreement. If we don't have rules we live by through which the terms of agreements are made reasonable, then we must live in a cavet emptor dystopia. Put more simply, anyone can go down to the market and squeeze the fruit to see if it's rotten, check the price, and decide whether or not to buy it. But signing a 40 page document full of fine print doesn't lend itself to the same non-coercion in transactions - often times people don't know or can't know what they are signing. As a general rule-of-thumb, the person who provides the form letter for an agreement is always at an advantage over the person signing the form letter. Rules for that type of situation matter.
So I think we can get to what liberals really probably want, which is a lot more nuanced than you portray:
1) Free markets, so long as there are:
2) Rules to prevent coercion in markets
3) Increasing rules the further one gets away from real physical products and the more inelastic a market gets
4) Public regulation or ownership in the case of natural monopolies and public goods
That's it. That's the case. It's harder to say than just "free markets" or "socialism." But it's much closer to the truth and less full of ideological nonsense than the simpler way to describe things you hear on Fox and MSNBC.
to which i would add the fact that there is now less social mobility in the u.s. than in sclerotic, social-democratic europe.
Comment
-
Re: This Is Getting Embarassing!
I didn't say that liberals are socialists; I was looking at the spectrum of free markets to government controlled ones (socialist).
But under liberal governments more and more becomes controlled by government. I'm not saying that government should do nothing; a military for national defense has to be under a national government. But this monstrosity of a health care system is not workable; perhaps it was planned to be somewhat inefficient to lead to a single payer system. The health system did have to be reformed, but by evolution not a reckless, bureaucratic nightmare.
Ask those families that have seen their health care costs increase by 30% to 50% because of ACA requirements. Ask those whose full time jobs have been turned to part time because to comply with the ACA, otherwise the owner would be forced to lay off a good percentage of full time employees to comply with ACA.
In a curious manner the FIRE economy is now favored by liberals. No one has gone to jail for the American Financial Crisis. At least Bush put Enron officers in jail. Democrats have always favored real estate, better to get special deals (and personal enrichment) at the local and state levels from corrupt developers. (See Reid, Pelosi, Boxer for numerous real estate sweetheart deals; even Obama on a small scale).
Now the Democrats are trying to cozy up with Wall Street and the Banksters. Fast, corrupt money is more exciting than slow real estate. Yes, Republicans have taken advantage too, but liberals are not holier than thou.
My beef is the disdain for the hard working business owner who struggle to build a company with life savings, works double shift hours, finally succeeds; the is criticized for being a success and his or her wealth threatened with calls for excessive taxes and confiscation of hard earned savings. Not all so called "rich" are corrupt, not all the poor are innocent. Portions of each game the system, a larger number play by ethical standards (thank God).
I respect the liberal viewpoint; in the end we are looking for progress that increase living standards and provides a larger middle class. Neither party is doing this now, not liberals or conservatives.
Here is one view of what to do to turn things the way we aspire. It's not perfect but maybe a good beginning:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...oks_LS_Books_8
Book Review: 'Mass Flourishing' by Edmund Phelps
Innovative dynamism is the key to economic success and personal satisfaction, a Nobel-winner argues
By EDWARD GLAESER
Oct. 18, 2013 5:22 p.m. ET
Edmund Phelps's "Mass Flourishing" could easily be retitled "Contra-Corporatism," for at its heart this fine book is an attack on that increasingly common "third way" between capitalism and socialism. Mr. Phelps cogently argues that America's current economic woes reflect a reduction in the innovative dynamism that generates economic success and personal satisfaction. He places little hope in the Democratic Party, which "voices a new corporatism well beyond Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal or Lyndon Johnson's Great Society," or in Republicans in the thrall of "traditional values," who see "the good economy as mercantile capitalism plus social protection and social insurance." He instead yearns for legislative solons who "could usefully ask of every bill and regulatory directive: How would it impact the dynamism of our economy?" "This book is what Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations should have been about, if it were to have been an even more important book. Mass Flourishing contains much history, but it focuses more on what society should do today, and it provides a call to action."--Robert J. Shiller, author of Finance and the Good Society"
Mass Flourishing
By Edmund Phelps
Princeton, 378 pages, $29.95
Enlarge Image
Edmund Phelps, winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize for economics.
The first third of Mr. Phelps's book concerns the advent of modern capitalism—the rise of an economy that depends not upon the solid, easily understandable ground of natural resources but upon the constant convulsions of knowledge breakthroughs. The Industrial Revolution is the watershed event, when "for the first time in history," as the economist Robert Lucas put it, "the living standards of the masses of ordinary people have begun to undergo sustained growth." Mr. Phelps distinguishes this "modern capitalism" from pre-1800 "mercantile capitalism," in which merchants completed aggressively but industrial activity was limited and output per worker stagnated.
The author ably summarizes the long literature debating why the modern dynamic economy began where and when it did (England, around 1800). He sees some truth in a traditional view, associated with Walt Rostow, that emphasizes economic conditions: There needed to be sufficient agricultural prosperity to allow savings, as well as sufficient population density, transportation linkages and trade to provide the markets that justify large-scale production. But Mr. Phelps is also an institutionalist, arguing along the lines of Douglass North that economic freedoms enabled innovation. He emphasizes both the protection of businesses from expropriation—"the legal right to accumulate the income earned from a new successful product"—and the freedom of consumers "to adopt a novel product, to judge whether it best meets a need, and to learn how to use it."
The book eloquently discusses the culture of innovation, which can refer to both an entrepreneurial mind-set and the cultural achievements during an age of change. He sees modern capitalism as profoundly humanist, imbued with "a spirit that views the prospect of unanticipated consequences that may come with voyaging into the unknown as a valued part of experience and not a drawback." The dismal science becomes a little brighter when Mr. Phelps draws the connections between the economic ferment of the industrial age and the art of Beethoven, Verdi and Rodin.
The middle third of "Mass Flourishing" discusses the enemies of the modern economy: socialism and corporatism. Despite the extraordinary successes of the 19th century, the imperfections of the industrial age led many to dream of alternatives that might deliver a fairer and more efficient society. One strand of thinking led toward socialism and direct public control of the means of production. A second strand led toward corporatism, a hybrid approach that combines private ownership with heavy labor representation and some management by the public sector.
Even if the critics of free capitalism are right that markets are imperfect and that economic freedom doesn't guarantee equality, any interventionist alternative must weigh the failures of the market against the failures of the public sector. Mr. Phelps is right that, even if public management of coal mines and railroads were able to rival the private sector in short-run efficiency, "a socialist economy could not realize its potential for innovation," since entrepreneurs, financiers and inventors would not be free to compete and succeed with new ideas. The demise of the Soviet Union discredited the socialist chimera in much of the Western world. But the threat of corporatism continues, and Mr. Phelps's case against it is what makes his book so valuable.
In Mr. Phelps's telling, corporatism emerged in Mussolini's Italy in 1925, as a middle path between free-market capitalism and socialism. The corporatist approach was that government-sponsored unions would negotiate with a federation of Italy's companies, all under the watchful eye of the state. Full employment could be maintained by fiat and the mess of a market economy replaced by well-choreographed negotiation. Corporatism particularly appealed to militaristic regimes that dreaded disorder: Hitler was a corporatist; so were Franco and Salazar. Corporatism came to France when "German soldiers marched into Paris in 1940."
America's most obvious peacetime foray into corporatism came during the Great Depression, with the National Recovery Administration, whose administrator, retired Gen. Hugh Johnson, tried to set prices, mandate minimum wages and maximum workweeks and save America from "the murderous doctrine of savage and wolfish competition and rugged individualism." From their graves, America's Founders reached out and saved the country from this enormous overreach of executive authority when the Supreme Court unanimously invalidated the NRA's mandatory codes.
While the obvious corporatism of the NRA's Blue Eagle vanished, Mr. Phelps persuasively argues that "a new kind of corporatism has developed in recent decades," in which "the state is less a guide choosing the heading than a pilot paid by the passengers to take them where they ask." In this new corporatism, the state protects both organized labor and politically connected companies. and the state has acquired a "panoply of new roles," from regulations "aimed at shielding companies or workforces from competition" to lawsuits that "add to the diversion of income from earners to those receiving compensation or indemnification." It is as if "every person in a society is a signatory to an implicit contract" in which "no person may be harmed by others without receiving compensation." But protection against all conceivable harm also means protection against almost all change—and this is the death knell of dynamism and innovation.
The final third of Mr. Phelps's book concerns the America's long-run deterioration in productivity growth, job creation and business births. The author blames a cast of villains—corporate chieftains who emphasize only the short run, mutual funds that acquire too little specialized knowledge about individual corporations and a "congressional-banking complex." He takes aim at both greed—because "wealth seeking competes with innovation seeking"—and well-meaning policies that have "encroached on dynamism" by putting "pressure on companies to allow employees to work at home." One doesn't need to agree with all of Mr. Phelps's arguments to enjoy his idiosyncratically insightful take on American society and cheer his full-throated argument that the enemies of innovation hurt not only economic growth but also the great human joy that comes from creativity.
But what is to be done? The author wants governments that are "aware of the importance of the role played by dynamism in a modern-capitalist economy," and he disparages both current political camps. He has a number of thoughtful ideas about financial-sector reform. He is no libertarian and even proposes a "national bank specializing in extending credit or equity capital to start-up firms"—not my favorite idea.
My largest quibble with "Mass Flourishing" is its lack of emphasis on human capital—the role of education and the gradual accumulation of skills. One could argue that good institutions, and even democracy itself, rest on the bedrock of education. Education is crucial for widespread innovation, especially in a world that is far more technologically complex than 18th-century England. If we would follow Mr. Phelps's instructions to embrace an innovation agenda, we must reduce our government's tendency to over-regulate change and increase public support for educational reform. Ultimately, innovation is about empowering smart people and then getting out of their way.
—Mr. Glaeser is an economics professor at Harvard University and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute.
Last edited by vt; October 19, 2013, 12:18 AM.
Comment
-
Re: This Is Getting Embarassing!
We're heading toward a small world of weak tie relationships where the system velocity is such that no occupant of the system can alter its trajectory, let alone keep-up with it.
We have a new type of rule now. Not one-man rule, or rule of aristocracy or plutocracy, but of small groups elevated to positions of absolute power by random pressures and subject to political and economic factors that leave little room for decision.
They are representatives of abstract forces who have reached power through surrender of self. The iron-willed dictator is a thing of past.
There will be no more Stalins, no more Hitlers.
The rulers of this most insecure of all worlds are rulers by accident. Inept, frightened pilots at the controls of a vast machine they cannot understand, calling in experts to tell them which buttons to push.
—William S. Burroughs, “No More Stalins, No More Hitlers,” Interzone, Viking Books, 1989.
Comment
-
Re: This Is Getting Embarassing!
Originally posted by Woodsman View PostThe rulers of this most insecure of all worlds are rulers by accident. Inept, frightened pilots at the [/COLOR]controls of a vast machine they cannot understand, calling in experts to tell them which buttons to push.
—William S. Burroughs, “No More Stalins, No More Hitlers,” Interzone, Viking Books, 1989.
Last time I mentioned OODA Loops I was mocked here. Perhaps eyes are opening up enough now to reintroduce this concept of fast feedback control-loop networks operating at speeds far beyond the public's ability to comprehend.
And if these networked systems are going to operate with the least resistance, most existing intitutional infrastructure must be relegated to the dustbin, leaving the public as weak individual objects too confused, too tired, and too crowded by social forces to develop a plan for resistance, let along implement one. It's military strategy applied to public control. This is extremely well documented, and available to the public, just have to be willing to look in non-popular resources.Last edited by reggie; October 23, 2013, 07:34 PM.The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge ~D Boorstin
Comment
-
Re: This Is Getting Embarassing!
Here is a question: would people who, in the aggregate, control trillions of dollars of wealth and wield enormous economic and political power ever conspire together, at least on specific issues and during certain limited time frames, in order to increase their wealth and power? To ask this question is to answer it. Unless all of these people are literally saints most of them will be corrupted by wealth and power, and the level of corruption will increase without limit. Many of them will engage in conspiracies which defraud the public whenever they believe they can escape the consequences. If there are no conspiracies why do we have laws against them like RICO and SEC regulations. How is it that people have gone to jail convicted of being part of a criminal conspiracy?
Question Two: given an affirmative answer to question one, would there be at least a small group of individuals/families/tribes/groups who would agree to engage in a long term conspiracy for global dominance? Note that if even a few join together for relative advantage the remainder would be under great pressure to also join, or to create their own rival conspiratorial groups just to remain competitive.
The conspiratorial groups themselves would wish to remain concealed, but they would have public organizations to transmit their ideas to those who implement them. These secret groups would sometimes be in opposition to each other, and sometimes in cooperation with each other on specific issues, and both conditions would obtain at the same time. But they would all mostly agree on the need to dominate humanity. Whether there is one grand conspiracy or a small number of them, their abusive and parasitical nature ensures a negative effect on humanity in general.
"Inept, frightened pilots" may describe most of the political actors on the global scene, but the puppet masters themselves are arrogant. They are hostage to their own hubris and have dehumanized themselves so that normal emotions, including fear are excluded. Their intellect is darkened. Unfortunately for humanity, their collective effect on the world is analogous to eight year old spoiled brats playing with machine guns and grenades. On the other hand, the DOW is still going up!"I love a dog, he does nothing for political reasons." --Will Rogers
Comment
-
Re: This Is Getting Embarassing!
Ha ha ha! That's pretty funny. Thanks
Once one understands the origin of modern public relations, i.e., founded and promulgated by Edward Bernays, and its widespread use by not only B2C firms but governments, institutions, etc, and recognizes that it's ability to persuade lies in the power of suggestion and association to form (some would say manipulate) attitudes, wants, etc., it is no surprise that conspiracy theories abound. EVeryone's afraid they're being manipulated, but of course they have the answer in front of them - think and reason.
Fact is, conspiracy to commit a criminal act is itself a crime, but most of the examples here are not statutory crimes at all. There is no conspiracy to "manufacture consent", but there is careful planning in many cases, and while there are laws against fraud, there are none against persuasive advertising, lobbying the gov for self-serving legislation, and believing and acting as if you know what's best.
Comment
Comment