GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

[lektrode]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

......the banking cartel has been given the power to produce the coin of the realm, and thereby have gained considerable control and power (but this control is not well percceived by the public), so I'd rather see it in the hands of the people (through elected reps of course). Again I realize there are a host of issues to do with, but paying interest to private parties so that we can create new money (and that interest is a transfer of wealth make no mistake) is problematic to me.

+1
and one point for vino.
the larger, more significant problem, is the political class using borrowed/interest-bearing 'funding' to buy the votes of those so inclined to believing that this represents 'progress'

when in fact, its historically been just the opposite - yet these same 'interests' have persuaded the public to thinking that borrowed 'prosperity' is somehow a good thing - and THEN we have what the creditcard outfits are doing:

coining money.

in that - esp at the grocery stores - which industry wide profit margins are touted as being in the 1-2% range - are now accepting plastic (never mind 7-11's accepting EBT) -

so - would this not mean that the prices have been jacked-up commensurately
and doesnt this mean that they are COINING MONEY?

in direct contravention of the constitution?

just wondren...

[Woodsman]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Woods, I didn't mean to imply it would be trivial to implement, only of the technical non-necessity.

Apologies if my questioned implied anything. In all honesty, I simply wanted to hear more of this.

[Rajiv]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Woodsman, you must read up on the Modern Money Primer at New Economic Perspectives. Taxation is still necessary, but only in order to control inflation.

[Master Shake]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

The taxes mentioned in the scholarly article you linked were state taxes, not federal. No surprise that MA was a leader in the taxing game.

Taxes are a "taking." There's no way around that. You can argue that they are a legitimate taking, but they are a taking, nonetheless.

I think what bothers many people is that the expansion of the franchise coupled with the taxing power of the state results in a system where unproductive takers can legally confiscate the property of the producers. And I include the FIRE rentiers along with the multigenerational welfare lumpen proletariat as takers. The class warfare is the 1% and the perpetually dependent class v. the middle class/working class.

[dcarrigg]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

The taxes mentioned in the scholarly article you linked were state taxes, not federal. No surprise that MA was a leader in the taxing game.

Taxes are a "taking." There's no way around that. You can argue that they are a legitimate taking, but they are a taking, nonetheless.

I think what bothers many people is that the expansion of the franchise coupled with the taxing power of the state results in a system where unproductive takers can legally confiscate the property of the producers. And I include the FIRE rentiers along with the multigenerational welfare lumpen proletariat as takers. The class warfare is the 1% and the perpetually dependent class v. the middle class/working class.

It appears it is pointless for me to outline why we have separate words for the concepts of "taking" "theft" "confiscation" and "taxation."

Regardless of how I try to unpack the concepts and why they are not compatible, you are hell bent on demanding that our Republic is illegitimate.

[Master Shake]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

It appears it is pointless for me to outline why we have separate words for the concepts of "taking" "theft" "confiscation" and "taxation."

Regardless of how I try to unpack the concepts and why they are not compatible, you are hell bent on demanding that our Republic is illegitimate.

You are hell bent on controlling the vocabulary of others and creating straw men.

[Woodsman]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

DC, this sort of "splitting" is inevitable as the GOP and movement conservatives begin their recriminations and crack up. Keep up the good work!

What will come of it, I hope, is a viable third-party or (even better) a No Party movement. The GOP and the radicals who control it won't accept reality until it mugs them, as they are fond of saying. Only this time, I expect it will be more like assault and battery by the electorate and I don't expect they will be able to crawl out of the alley like they did in days past.

With the far-right in disarray, the center can regroup and with luck find common cause with disaffected principled Democrats; maybe craft a strategy to win back the independents; maybe talk to Americans like adults; maybe enact solutions like TECI, electoral reform and the million things we need to do for all Americans in order to get us back on the tracks. This would preferably be outside the existing two party structure, but does not require it. The model by which the far right and movement conservatives took over the GOP is instructive and might be accelerated given the communications and social networking tools available today.

Keep talking and promoting the best ideas and principles to improve life for all Americans regardless of ideology or economic power; the so-called 99% or 47% or whatever math we need. Don't give ground and allow the radicals to define the terms. Call them out and show them for what they are. We need to stop arguing on their terms as they are becoming increasingly delusional and detached from common sense reality.

If it sounds like talking past some one, accept that there are plenty of lurkers on the sidelines that are willing to listen with an open mind even if they don't feel able for whatever reason to articulate or support a given position. The partisans and interests will argue and where we find common ground, let's hold it. Where we disagree, let's show where they are wrong and make them support their claims.

I find the truth rather easy to argue and the radicals have nothing left but their ideology and interest. I think the GOP is a dead man walking and so people of goodwill must have a viable alternative to one party FIRE Democrat rule if only to counter the even more radical elements that will inevitably hatch in the rotting corpse of the GOP.

At least that's the dream I have.

[dcarrigg]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

You are hell bent on controlling the vocabulary of others and creating straw men.

Again, I'm not arguing with you. I'm stating fact. Taxation is not confiscation. Apples are not oranges. Up is not down. Black is not white. This is not a straw man because this is not an argument.

[Woodsman]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Will do, thanks.

[vt]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Well we need to get rid of the totally corrupt and incompetent Democrats too:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57607918/deadly-drug-cartel-shootout-with-mexico-police-linked-to-grenade-walking-scandal/

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/09/white-house-irs-exchanged-confidential-taxpayer-info/

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/gibbs-obamacare-roll-out-excruciatingly-embarrassing-people-charge-should-be-fired_762492.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...ns-true-costs/

[Woodsman]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Ditto.

It's said that bad money drives out good. Well, good citizens make good candidates and with enough of them we can drive out the bad politicians from the Democrats and the GOP.

I don't have illusions about any of them, vt. But I'll just say it, it seems like your distaste of the Democrats enables you to hold your nose and stay home in the GOP. That's enabling behavior if you ask me. Nothing will change if Americans keep doing the same thing. I say, vote for no incumbent, no Democrat, no Republican. A pox on both and the next time someone questions the wisdom of third party support, demand they show how theirs is not a "wasted vote."

Since you seem to have a better handle on Democrat malfeasance, then please do highlight them for us. I seem to have a better handle on the crimes of the GOP, so I will do the same. Together we might encourage enough people to consider supporting and encouraging a third and genuinely independent movement.

Voting out one a black cat and then voting in a white cat still leaves us mice under threat of becoming a meal. We are going to have to leave some things to God and unite against the barbarians inside the gates if we are ever going to push them out.

Let live and prosper.

[vt]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Woody,

I've stated numerous times I don't like either, as has Raz.

I understand your distaste for the GOP. I'm simply pointing out the Dems are just as bad.

Throw them all out and create something that works in a changing world.

I just feel that all this money they are printing and spending like drunken sailors is not helping the middle class or poor.
We have to make sure people are fed, but we also have to take money away from the banksters, crony capitalists and crony socialists. Reduce the overpaid bureaucracy through attrition, reduce their early gold plated retirements, and make sure what they do increases educational standards and helps produce jobs.

Have reasonable but not suffocating regulation. Put financial criminals in jail and confiscate (DC would like this) their ill gotten loot.

Let's start working on the platform for the new majority party

[DSpencer]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

If you start with the premise that taxation is confiscation, confiscation is theft (therefore taxes are theft QED), and citizens are consumers, then we cannot even communicate with each other effectively. Words used to have precise definitions. Once you start blurring them, we cannot communicate effectively.

For the love of all that is holy, learn what a straw man is! At no point in this thread have I said confiscation is theft and citizens are consumers.

The rest of the post is more of the same. It is like the Sorcerer's Apprentice where for every straw man you get called out on you create two more in its place. If you want to argue with someone who holds the position that we should get rid of all taxes, then go find that person. But it's not me and it doesn't appear to be anyone else in this thread.

[Master Shake]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Woody,

I've stated numerous times I don't like either, as has Raz.

I understand your distaste for the GOP. I'm simply pointing out the Dems are just as bad.

Throw them all out and create something that works in a changing world.

I just feel that all this money they are printing and spending like drunken sailors is not helping the middle class or poor.
We have to make sure people are fed, but we also have to take money away from the banksters, crony capitalists and crony socialists. Reduce the overpaid bureaucracy through attrition, reduce their early gold plated retirements, and make sure what they do increases educational standards and helps produce jobs.

Have reasonable but not suffocating regulation. Put financial criminals in jail and confiscate (DC would like this) their ill gotten loot.

Let's start working on the platform for the new majority party

Despite his protestation, Woody seems to be locked into the "Two Legs Bad, Four Legs Good" dichotomy of evil, racist Pubs v. progressive, egalitarian Dems. We pretty much have a one party system of big government and crony capitalism, with the mainstream Pubs being the Stupid Wing of the party and post-modern/"progressive" Dems making up the Evil Wing. The Tea Party, for all their faults, and the Occupy Movement, for all their faults (Astroturf, bankrolled by the evil Koch Bros or evil Soros, blah, blah, blah) represent a challenge to rulers, especially the Tea Party, since they actually work, pay taxes, and bathe regularly.

One of the big lies that is used to maintain the status quo, is the notion of class warfare as rich v. poor. Charles Hugh Smith wrote a great article a couple years ago at his site Of Two Minds, describing the Three Way Class Warfare that actually exists. You can read it here.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogsept10...fare09-10.html

[lektrode]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Ditto.

It's said that bad money drives out good. Well, good citizens make good candidates and with enough of them we can drive out the bad politicians from the Democrats and the GOP.

I don't have illusions about any of them, vt. But I'll just say it, it seems like your distaste of the Democrats enables you to hold your nose and stay home in the GOP. That's enabling behavior if you ask me.
Nothing will change if Americans keep doing the same thing. I say, vote for no incumbent, no Democrat, no Republican. A pox on both
and the next time someone questions the wisdom of third party support, demand they show how theirs is not a "wasted vote."

Since you seem to have a better handle on Democrat malfeasance, then please do highlight them for us. I seem to have a better handle on the crimes of the GOP, so I will do the same.

fair enough, woody - my 1st question for you is, if i may - without meaning to pry -

in what state do you reside?

the only reason i'm asking, is that, IMHO - i think it makes a difference in how one perceives 'malfeasance'.

Together we might encourage enough people to consider supporting and encouraging a third and genuinely independent movement.

speaking as one of the (my aforementioned above) 'anybody BUT mccain/romney voters' -
even when that didnt work out so well for those of us who _dont_ much care for the DNC's flavor of politicking -
and as my dearly departed mother, who was quite fond of saying - to put it politely -
during geedubya's terms: WOULD NEVER again VOTE FOR A GD REPUBLICAN!! - and then changed her mind after 2006-2008??
saying "...these _arent_ the democrats we used-to vote for..." - esp after watching queen nancy's reign of BS -
(altho she liked to watch fox tho, so we should forgive her, with o'reilly their exception ;)

and as one who has tended to vote 3rd party - tho not always - in the prez contests for most of my 'career'
(when you grow up/come of age commuting tween MA and NH, it tends to happen) - I COULDNT AGREE MORE.

Voting out one a black cat and then voting in a white cat still leaves us mice under threat of becoming a meal. We are going to have to leave some things to God and unite against the barbarians inside the gates if we are ever going to push them out.

Let live and prosper.

ayuh, couldna said it better woody.

sez a 'small-r' type