GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

[lektrode]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

No, vino. I pays my way like everyone else. Backhanded compliment or not, I'm glad you think I'm having some sort of impact because I certainly don't think so.

oh you are definitely having an impact, woody - maybe not 'zactly the one yer lookin for, but an impact, for sure.

And yes, it's true that when compared to the hard and squishy right wing elements that seem to dominate the conversation, I may seem like a beret wearing pinko commie firebrand. But that's only because I have the temerity employ the sometimes uncomfortable facts of history and social sciences to challenge their dearly held dogmas and orthodoxies. This inevitably upsets the sensibilities of some of the faithful.

and thats ok too = why we - some of us anyway - LIKE YOUR POSTS (and dc's)

else we'd just have an echo chamber and what fun/interest would that be?

i'll have more on this one later on - and a VERY stimulating discussion its been - but my other 1/2 is naggin-n-draggin me off to our 3x/week 'torture session' (she calls it a workout, but i'm feeling muscles i didnt know/fergot i had and it aint pleasant...)

[LorenS]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

I see a whole lot of racism in the comment sections of many major news outlets. It is quite disturbing. One thing that is fueling it is the blatant racism and liberal bias of the main stream media. Whenever something bad happens the media will conjecture that it's a white Tea Party person. Then later the facts will trickle out, but they never have the splash of that first wrong statement.

Another thing that drives a lot of resentment is the perception that the media tries to cover up crime committed by blacks.

What I do find disturbing is the number of people who attribute to race what is purely a behavioral problem.

What we need is a better dialog on the issues of behavior and how to correct the behaviors that over the course of history have proven to be harmful to society.

The Tea Party is motivated primarily by their perception that America is sliding into oblivion because we refuse to pursue behaviors that in the past have proven successful and that we are now adopting behaviors that in the past have proven harmful. It's not about race, and it's really unfair to constantly paint the Tea Party movement as racist while there is blatant, unaddressed, racism in many of the liberal groups.

[Master Shake]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Hey, I'm just telling you what it looks like from the other side. You don't have to agree. There are lots of liberals puzzled as to why so many tea partiers get furious about the estate tax when it only effects people passing on more than 10 million bucks. They figure it's astroturf and that these people are just duped into doing what rich folks want and sacrificing their own economic self-interest. That was that whole "What's the matter with Kansas?" book in a nutshell.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying this is how people think of things.

Maybe it's more about principle than about "how it affects me?" The principle in question: why shouldn't a man or woman be able to pass along the fruits of their lifelong labor to their offspring, as opposed to having it confiscated by the State?

Suppose the family farm or ranch is valued at 20 million. Not really enough money to go about evading the estate tax like the truly rich do via trusts, foundations, insurance, and the like.

It's funny. There are extensively documented cases of paid/professional protesters on the left, but when the lumpen middle class get behind a movement, it's "astroturf" because there's money coming in to support them. And if it's not "astroturf" then it's racist because they're mostly white.

[don]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

As the sheeple lose credence in the Land of Opportunity their hopes and dreams of becoming wealthy and finding the estate tax relevant will continue to evaporate. (Look at the upside - new work for the Heritage Foundation)

[vt]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

+1

Political liberals and leftists are quick to call someone a racist with no proof whatsoever.

What is ignored by the main stream liberal press are attacks on Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain solely because they are black conservatives. The attacks on Bush Attorney General Alberto Gonzales during his nomination to the Supreme Court by the left and the right were disgusting. All of these were racist attacks by the left.

At a 2010 health care town hall in meeting a black flag vendor was attacked by racist SEIU union members.

The left is vehemently anti-semitic, yet the press ignores this.

As I've stated independents are fed up with the hypocrisy on both sides, but especially with the race baiting left.

As for Professor Reed, his studies ignore population makeup. Reed concludes that southerners are less intelligent and poorer. But he ignores why.

Educational studies clearly show lower performance of blacks and Hispanics in all areas of the country. Interestingly they ignore the higher achievement of Asians, some who overcame language barriers, over native whites. Hispanics have to overcome language barriers and coming from lower income families as many are recent arrivals. Those who have been here longer have higher incomes and education.

Reed ignores that blacks are heavily concentrated in the south, and past discrimination has hurt them educationally and economically.

The GOP needs to update their social issue views, but the tea party concern with government spending and debt are reasonable. To call them racists is travesty.

[Woodsman]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

The Tea Party is motivated primarily by their perception that America is sliding into oblivion because we refuse to pursue behaviors that in the past have proven successful and that we are now adopting behaviors that in the past have proven harmful. It's not about race, and it's really unfair to constantly paint the Tea Party movement as racist while there is blatant, unaddressed, racism in many of the liberal groups.

Sure; singing "Bye-bye Blackbird" has no racial connotations in this context. Nope, no racial animus here:

Racially-charged sentiment infused the protests and split the crowd both politically and physically. Obama supporters congregated on the west side of the road in front of the high school and his critics lined up across the street. Obama foes at one point sang, "Bye Bye Black Sheep," a derogatory reference to the president's skin color, while protesters like Deanne Bartram raised a sign saying, "Impeach the Half-White Muslim!"

Wait, didn't I just read this somewhere?:

Deanna Bartram, a 17-year-old University of Arizona student from Black Canyon City, lashed out at people who call her racist for not supporting Obama. She believes Obama supporters use the “race card” against her because they disagree with her political message.

"47% negro" How old school. And clever:

“He’s 47 percent Negro,” shouted Ron Enderle, a 77-year-old Chandler resident who said that he and his son served as Marines and his grandson is currently serving in the Marines.

Keep digging, guys. The hole still isn't big enough and you might even find Lee Atwater if you go deep enough. You remember him, don't you? He was Karl Rove with charisma. Here he is discussing the evolution of the GOP's Southern Strategy in an off the record interview:

You start out in 1954 by saying, "N****r, n****r, n****r." By 1968 you can't say "n****r" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N****r, n****r."

Lee Atwater, Chairman of the Republican National Committee quoted in Alexander P. Lamis, The Two-Party South, 1990

[don]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

The left is vehemently anti-Semitic

This is news to me, especially with American Jews' long history of liberalism, not to mention 30s socialism.

Perhaps you feel criticism of Zionist expansion policies is anti-Semitic?

[vt]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Lee Atwater died in 1991. What he did was terrible, but in no way describes the GOP now.

The other three instances were idiots that are a small fraction of the anti semitic and racist leftists. You also ignore the institutional racists attacks of the Democrats on Herman Cain recently, and the attacks on Romney's for his religious beliefs.

[Woodsman]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Atwater met his end, yes, but his corrosive influence lives on in the GOP and Tea Party. Conservatives are free of course to close their eyes to reality, but most everyone understands what the GOP, the Tea Party and the right wing are about by now. Even the former RNC chair felt the need to apologize for the Southern Strategy:

"Some Republicans gave up on winning the African American vote, looking the other way or trying to benefit politically from racial polarization. I am here today as the Republican chairman to tell you we were wrong."
"RNC Chief to Say It Was 'Wrong' to Exploit Racial Conflict for Votes." Washington Post. July 14, 2005

Of course, Melman was run over the coals for this small mea culpa by the likes of Limbaugh and others on the GOP far right. Melman was unceremoniously kicked outside the tent and the GOP would go on to double down in the face of Obama. The fact that Melman was a gay man only made his "betrayal" worse in the eyes of the extremist right. And I wonder just how many more "isolated instances" need to pile up before what remains of the good and decent folk aligned with the GOP and Tea Party understand just exactly the sort of people they are standing with?

You can claim antisemitism and racism from the left all you want, but the historical record is quite clear as to where the racists and antisemites find their home. They're firmly planted on the far right and have been since before William Buckley tossed the most embarrassing of the lot overboard in the sixties. And at the very least, the people who expressed concern over Romney's theological viewpoint had the common sense to argue from the basis of reality. The Tea Party and GOP far right still believe Obama is a crypto Muslim.

As for Herman Cain, minstrel shows embarrass me even when the performer feels perfectly at home dancing for the pleasure of the audience's imagination. By word an deed, people like Cain (and Allen West) legitimate the deep and ugly hostility to Obama and give "permission" for those harboring racial animus to let loose their worst. Like Atwater so clearly explained, the code words and "abstractions" used by the GOP and the Tea Party betray their belief that a black man who happens to be president is by definition illegitimate. If only the Democrats offered a meaningful alternative we might have somewhere to turn.

It is a genuine tragedy that so many otherwise decent people seem willfully blind to the obvious racial hostility which drives the Tea Party, the GOP and the far right. They make a bargain worthy of Faust but are they sure the angels will intervene and save them in the end?

[vt]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Had Colin Powell wanted to run after Reagan, he would have gotten the Republican nomination in a heartbeat.

"Powell eventually declared himself a Republican and began to campaign for Republican candidates in 1995.^[34] He was touted as a possible opponent of Bill Clinton in the 1996 U.S. presidential election, possibly capitalizing on a split conservative vote inIowa^[35] and even leading New Hampshire polls for the GOP nomination,^[36] but Powell declined, citing a lack of passion for politics.^[37] Powell defeated Clinton 50-38 in a hypothetical match-up proposed to voters in the exit polls conducted on Election Day.^[38] Despite not standing in the race, Powell won the Republican New Hampshire Vice-Presidential primary on write-in votes." Wikipedia

Condi Rice could have also been a serious candidate for Vice President. Both Powell and Rice served as Secretary of State as Republicans, the first black man and woman to reach that important cabinet post. Those racist Republicans!!

Herman Cain took the lead in the early republican debates, only to be destroyed by Democrat lies. Where's the racism here? Not the GOP.

Objections to Obama by Republicans are based on ideology, not race. Those that bring up Muslim leanings are radical right wing types with no place in conservatism.

Hispanics like Rubio and Cruz are also leading contenders in the conservative movement. The liberals attack them. Where's the racism here? Not the GOP.

I don't agree with the social policies of the GOP, but do believe in smaller efficient government. We do need government spending to replace the lack of private funds in this slow economy, but not to Obama's cronies. We need it for TECI.

An objective observer clearly sees the flaws of both Democrats and Republicans. Hopefully an evolving independent movement will replace both.

[Woodsman]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Had Colin Powell wanted to run after Reagan, he would have gotten the Republican nomination in a heartbeat...

Perhaps, but there's no way to know. And recall that Powell once claimed to be a McGovern Democrat, so maybe he would have been a new kind of Republican? I doubt it very much, but the possibility remains.

Hopefully an evolving independent movement will replace both.

From your mouth to God's ears.

I don't agree with the social policies of the GOP, but do believe in smaller efficient government. We do need government spending to replace the lack of private funds in this slow economy, but not to Obama's cronies. We need it for TECI.

I accept that and agree without reservation or qualification.

We can ping pong back and forth until the spirit leaves one of us and neither will give ground. I won't because I know the history and have familiarity with the data. I can't say why you won't but I have no doubt that you hold your views sincerely and with the best of intentions for everyone regardless of race or ancestry. So how about we give it a rest?

Please allow me to be clear - not all GOPers or even rightists are motivated by racial animus; not all Democrats or even leftists are motivated by envy. Neither has a monopoly on virtue or depravity and in their current incarnation, both are utterly worthless to the vast majority of Americans except for the infinitesimally small number of elites they both serve.

[DSpencer]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

As the sheeple lose credence in the Land of Opportunity their hopes and dreams of becoming wealthy and finding the estate tax relevant will continue to evaporate. (Look at the upside - new work for the Heritage Foundation)

Not to repeat what master shake said already but it's quite strange to hear this repeated sentiment lamenting that non-wealthy Americans either have beliefs based on principle rather than pure self interest or are simply too stupid to understand what's in their self interest.

[DSpencer]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

I don't agree with the social policies of the GOP, but do believe in smaller efficient government.

In other words, you don't agree with any of the GOP policies?

[DSpencer]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

The irony in this thread is overwhelming to me.

Those millions of GOP members and Tea Party members are stereotyping racists! And I know this to be true because I have anecdotal evidence that some are racists and therefore it's totally reasonable to assume this is true of the entire group!

Those stupid racists don't want to debate the issues they just want to smear people based on some group they belong to! What a bunch of shallow racists!

[don]

Re: GOP: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Not to repeat what master shake said already but it's quite strange to hear this repeated sentiment lamenting that non-wealthy Americans either have beliefs based on principle rather than pure self interest or are simply too stupid to understand what's in their self interest.

I've never seen campaigns against the inheritance tax pitched as a principle. It's usually the family farm scenario.