Deutschland Alt-E Kaput?

[bpwoods]

Re: Deutschland Alt-E Kaput?

1Clue: Sailboats and wind!!! I love it! Have you ever tried sailing to windward? If so, sorry to bother you! Thanks for a good laugh. And of course for your comments. Interesting and useful.

[bpwoods]

Re: Deutschland Alt-E Kaput?

The Germans are unwittingly leading the destruction of Europe.

Is this a genuine reflection of our (EU, US and other consumer economies) current economic and financial difficulties? Or is D-land just a convenient punchbag for what are a quite intractable set of circumstances which have been 4 decades in the making? I have formed the opinion that its more likely that the actual behaviours of the senior executives (both past and present) of the very large, multi-national investment?? houses are closer to a causal factor. However, I'm quite open to plausible arguments to the contrary. Political theory posits that sovereign states will do 'anything' to preserve themselves. So what's new here?

Europe (I assume you mean the EU collective) will survive - albeit not in its current setup. The political stresses that are slowing increasing in intensity are too great for national politicians. Mind you, the Eurozone has much greater problems. So that might rupture - after a financial Syriziation - you understand! Keep a safe distance!

[GRG55]

Re: Deutschland Alt-E Kaput?

could you elaborate on that point.

thanks!

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...285#post268285

[dcarrigg]

Re: Deutschland Alt-E Kaput?

They're worried about an average bill of about $135 per month (90€) for a family of 3.

In AC happy parts of the US, that's not outside the realm of normal. Hell, even cold-weather homes that run hot water, old appliances, and 2 60" TVs all day will hit that pretty easy under rates in the states.

The real threat is the cost to large commercial and industrial users. That's why Germany (and the US and everywhere else) subsidizes them by charging residents and small commerce/industry more.

The real argument Der Spiegel is making in the article that started this discussion was a left-wing argument.

The argument works as well in the US.

It is namely that feed-in tariffs and tax subsidies are a boon to rich people who can afford rooftop solar PV panels, while poor people and renters who do not have that option pay extra to subsidize it.

This is true.

But it's kind of a funny argument since the extra amount they pay comes nowhere near the the extra amount they are charges to subsidize big business electricity users. And large electricity users have been subsidized forever.

Ultimately the cheap natural gas boon in North America has helped keep prices down tremendously. The alternative is the Chinese model of quick, cheap and dirty coal everywhere.

Up here in the northeast, we're getting 8¢/kWh wind now. That's not half bad, and far less than ol' Deutschland.

I wonder what the extra transmission costs related to the 8¢/kWh wind power will be. Power plants aren't typically up in the hills away from everybody. There's an environmental cost to running extra transmission infrastructure too.

Regardless, I think people tend to take to hard-line of an approach to energy systems. They either end up cheerleaders or naysayers. It's a shame the matter has gotten so polarized. Energy, like real estate, is ultimately local. There are technologies that make sense in some areas and not in others.

But we shouldn't stoop to slapping moral labels on energy technology or fuel types. It's a matter of cost benefit analysis. We may not agree on what exactly count as costs or benefits. But surely we can be more rational than this.

[don]

Re: Deutschland Alt-E Kaput?

Is energy - not to dismiss it by any means - the determinant, trumping America's labor-cost ballooning FIRE factor? Not so sure that the willful hollowing out of the productive economy is an advantage vis a vis Germany.

[GRG55]

Re: Deutschland Alt-E Kaput?

Is energy - not to dismiss it by any means - the determinant, trumping America's labor-cost ballooning FIRE factor? Not so sure that the willful hollowing out of the productive economy is an advantage vis a vis Germany.

These process take a looong time to play out. Decades. Whether building FIRE or hollowing out American manufacturing. Looks like things are shifting back the other way in some of these trends. Too early to tell if these are long term macro trend changes or "flash in the pan", but the banking sector has been shrinking worldwide since the 2009 crisis, and it is now parts of Germany's much vaunted manufacturing sector that is ever so slowly being hollowed out as it loses ground to the USA. Worthy of monitoring to see how it plays out...

[c1ue]

Re: Deutschland Alt-E Kaput?

Sailboats and wind!!! I love it! Have you ever tried sailing to windward?

Its called tacking - and adds between 1.6 and 3 times as much distance travelled vs. straight line travel. But that's what was done for literally hundreds of years before the advent of cheap fossil fueled engines.

Up here in the northeast, we're getting 8¢/kWh wind now. That's not half bad, and far less than ol' Deutschland.

The 8 cents/kwh number is indubitably including all sorts of subsidies - both on the capital, transmission and on the generation side. I've looked at literally dozens of FEMA reports, and the actual costs are far, far higher - comparable or higher than the 18.7 cents/kwh referred to elsewhere.

Sure, there are subsidies on the fossil fuel side as well - but the amount of subsidy per kwh is far, far less.