U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

[vt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWKQhkny06A

What do you think is the best car engine ever built? Best overall? Best for value?

Candidates I like at different levels are:

Chevy 302, used only on the Z-28 Camaro

GM 350

Ford 3.7 EcoBoost

MoPar Slant 6

BMW 2.0 L Inline-four

One advantage U.S. owners have is that parts are plentiful and not overly expensive. Maintenance and repair costs are important considerations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward's_10_Best_Engines

Of course all this will change soon with diesel hybrids. The current and past car engines will wind up in the museum.

[Forrest]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

It's nice to know that we still do some things well. I get tired of journalists always beating up on the U.S.

Perhaps we will do even better with the hybrids?

[jr429]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

this discussion is silly as is Ward's selection of engines. The quality of a motor is the direct result of the investment in either fixed (R&D) and/or variable costs of the engine designer - who frequently is NOT the badge that gets put onto the motor. As I recall the ecoboost motor mentioned above is assembled in Wales but I can be wrong. The motors for several high performance sports cars are designed by specialized design-houses.

There's no real technology advantage held by any automaker over another in terms of engine technology, there are incremental improvements here and there but really it just comes down to how much the automaker wants to spend. That said the engine build philosophy of one segment of the world to another is often quite different, and many automakers are married to "how things were" which were largely dictated by regional philosophy when car sales were not yet a global market. For example in the 80s and 90s the Japanese due to smaller vehicles were married to smaller displacement motors using technology (such as engine managment and fuel injection) to extract as much efficiency out of a small displacement engine. The americans on the other hand due to larger cars and cheap fuel adopted the "no replacement for displacement" philosophy using size to offset efficiency - this is especially true around the early 90's where engine management systems (ie obdii) were better implemented by the japanese. The germans on the other hand typically catering to a luxury car market focused on autobahn speeds tended to implement more advanced (expensive) technology quicker, such as direct fuel injection which was first widely used by german automakers. Today in a global market all of this is untrue as OEMs build their cars for the global markets using "world" chassis or "world" engines targeted to match the demographics of a variety of different markets...

[GRG55]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWKQhkny06A

What do you think is the best car engine ever built?...

My nominations:

Best ever eight cylinder: General Motors 350 cid small block solid lifter LT-1 introduced in the 1970 Corvette (that's LT-1 WITH a hyphen - you gearheads out there will know what I mean).

Best ever six-cylinder: Jaguar 3.4 litre in-line that powered Jaguar to the first victory for the illustrious D-Type, in 1954 at Rheims, France. BMW has produced some incredible 6-cylinder engines in more recent times, but when you look at what the Jaguar works engineers had available to them the D-Type and its engine were remarkable achievements in their day.

Best ever 4-cylinder: The horizontally-opposed, air cooled engine in the venerable Volkswagen Beetle and Microbus. Is there another engine in history with as many derivatives, and ultimately used in everything from Army vehicles to dune buggies, Baja offroad racers and experimental airplanes? I blew an exhaust valve in my 1968 Beetle on a Friday afternoon heading home from university, jacked up the car, unbolted the engine from the transaxle and dropped it out the bottom, pulled the cylinders and overhauled the whole top end using only hand tools, and had it running Sunday night in time to head to school the next morning. Not many engines ever made that would allow that...

[cbr]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

i happen to be uniquely qualified to answer this, and the clear and easy answer is the GM LS series V8, 1997 - 2013. Roughly the same size and weight as a posche 911 flat six from the 70's, it makes more than 3 times the power and is twice as fuel efficient. Or in perspective, roughly the same length, height and weight as a 90's miata 4 cylinder, and a tad wider, (and cheaper), yet it makes more than 3 times the power and is just as efficient.

it is MUCH smaller and lighter than the famed BMW straight 6, yet it makes more than twice the power, and is slightly more efficient....

basically, take any vehicle ever produced without an LS series V8, and put one in it, and it's a better vehicle.

[flintlock]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

i happen to be uniquely qualified to answer this, and the clear and easy answer is the GM LS series V8, 1997 - 2013. Roughly the same size and weight as a posche 911 flat six from the 70's, it makes more than 3 times the power and is twice as fuel efficient. Or in perspective, roughly the same length, height and weight as a 90's miata 4 cylinder, and a tad wider, (and cheaper), yet it makes more than 3 times the power and is just as efficient.

it is MUCH smaller and lighter than the famed BMW straight 6, yet it makes more than twice the power, and is slightly more efficient....

basically, take any vehicle ever produced without an LS series V8, and put one in it, and it's a better vehicle.

That engine(or series of engines, kind of a broad category) would be on my list too, but hardly fair to compare an engine from 97 on to one from the 70s( not their best years by any means) don't you think? And 3x the fuel efficiency? Are we comparing apples to apples here in terms of time periods? Or are we talking HP per gallon or however its measured? I've owned several vehicles with that engine and loved them.

I had no idea this engine was so light. Interesting.

[flintlock]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

Not the most powerful, but the Toyota 22R was bulletproof.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

This list needs the old Volvo B18 engine.
I had one (of the B18B variety) in a 1966 P1800S when I was in college, and one like it recently completed 3 million road miles.
It's a basic, plain vanilla straight 4 cylinder engine, 1800cc, with 5 main bearings, cam in the block, and push rods.
The design traces back to early marine engines, and the B18 was in many Volvo Penta stern drives.

Mine ran reliably for months with the top blown out of one piston.

Unfortunately, the B18B variant in the P1800 came fitted with dual British SU carburetors. Many folks love those carbs, but not me.
I still have that dang airflow meter for adjusting and matching them.

[jr429]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

i happen to be uniquely qualified to answer this, and the clear and easy answer is the GM LS series V8, 1997 - 2013. Roughly the same size and weight as a posche 911 flat six from the 70's, it makes more than 3 times the power and is twice as fuel efficient. Or in perspective, roughly the same length, height and weight as a 90's miata 4 cylinder, and a tad wider, (and cheaper), yet it makes more than 3 times the power and is just as efficient.

it is MUCH smaller and lighter than the famed BMW straight 6, yet it makes more than twice the power, and is slightly more efficient....

basically, take any vehicle ever produced without an LS series V8, and put one in it, and it's a better vehicle.

When you say 3x the power I'm curious where you are going with this. The new LS series engine is no more efficient then many of the performance engines from other manufacturers available today. In fact the only way GM is able to extract so much power out of the LS engine is precisely due to the technological advances I mentioned above including direct injection, variable valve timing, metallurgy advances, chemical / coating advances, gasket advances, and adaptive ignition management all of which is expensive. All that power comes purely from displacement and high compression this isn't mechanical design it's the implementation of technology (and cost) to run a 11:1+ compression ratio and be able to not blow up with 87 octane california summer gas. In fact I argue this engine isn't that efficient for the size, the new porsche engines that you mentioned are generating similar power numbers but with better efficiency, the GTR engine which is a modified mass-production V6 engine 143HP per liter (albeit with the help of turbochargers) and when cost is no object the Toyota's (Yamaha's) LFA engine produces a little less power per liter but is able to rev to 9000rpm with a broad powerband. Then you have the non-production engines which take efficiency and performance to a whole other level.

Basically it's ridiculous to compare one engine to another when cost and purpose are not factored into the discussion.

[cbr]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

When you say 3x the power I'm curious where you are going with this. The new LS series engine is no more efficient then many of the performance engines from other manufacturers available today. In fact the only way GM is able to extract so much power out of the LS engine is precisely due to the technological advances I mentioned above including direct injection, variable valve timing, metallurgy advances, chemical / coating advances, gasket advances, and adaptive ignition management all of which is expensive. All that power comes purely from displacement and high compression this isn't mechanical design it's the implementation of technology (and cost) to run a 11:1+ compression ratio and be able to not blow up with 87 octane california summer gas. In fact I argue this engine isn't that efficient for the size, the new porsche engines that you mentioned are generating similar power numbers but with better efficiency, the GTR engine which is a modified mass-production V6 engine 143HP per liter (albeit with the help of turbochargers) and when cost is no object the Toyota's (Yamaha's) LFA engine produces a little less power per liter but is able to rev to 9000rpm with a broad powerband. Then you have the non-production engines which take efficiency and performance to a whole other level.

Basically it's ridiculous to compare one engine to another when cost and purpose are not factored into the discussion.

I didnt realize we were talking about 'for its time'. Thats a different test, but at present the ls still wins it.

When you are talking about 'for its size' you are talking about displacement, a totally and absolutely meaningless figure. I am talking about a critical size: physical height width and depth, and weight.

A 7 liter v8 ls motor is smaller and lighter than a 3 liter bmw straight 6. Put it in the same car with proper gearing and it gets better gas mileage. It makes 505 horsepower, the bmw in its contemporary m form makes under 300.

That high end ls comes with a 100,000 mile warranty in a sub $70,000 car. You can buy one all day long retail from gm for $12k, and thats with a major gearhead retail markup. The 436 hp version comes in a $30,000 car and you can buy one for $7000.




Put apples to apples, the 500 hp bmw v8 weighs almost 60% more, is over 6" wider, gets only 80% of the gas mileage, and costs 3 times as much.

Gm simply won with this motor and won by such a huge margin it is hard to comprehend.

I have a friend with a $7000 ls motor in a 72 porsche 911. The 170 hp, 13mpg flat six that wouldnt go 20,000 miles without an overhaul was 40 lbs heavier than the 436 hp, 38 mpg (in that car), 100,000 mile oil changer only motor. He sold the leaky flat 6 for almost as much as the new gm v8.

You could take a brand new 911 turbo, sell that engine for $30,000 plus, and put in an ls7 for $20k, and you'd have a lighter, more reliable, simpler, faster,cheaper car that got better gas mileage.

[jr429]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

I didnt realize we were talking about 'for its time'. Thats a different test, but at present the ls still wins it.

When you are talking about 'for its size' you are talking about displacement, a totally and absolutely meaningless figure. I am talking about a critical size: physical height width and depth, and weight.

A 7 liter v8 ls motor is smaller and lighter than a 3 liter bmw straight 6. Put it in the same car with proper gearing and it gets better gas mileage. It makes 505 horsepower, the bmw in its contemporary m form makes under 300.

That high end ls comes with a 100,000 mile warranty in a sub $70,000 car. You can buy one all day long retail from gm for $12k, and thats with a major gearhead retail markup. The 436 hp version comes in a $30,000 car and you can buy one for $7000.




Put apples to apples, the 500 hp bmw v8 weighs almost 60% more, is over 6" wider, gets only 80% of the gas mileage, and costs 3 times as much.

Gm simply won with this motor and won by such a huge margin it is hard to comprehend.

I have a friend with a $7000 ls motor in a 72 porsche 911. The 170 hp, 13mpg flat six that wouldnt go 20,000 miles without an overhaul was 40 lbs heavier than the 436 hp, 38 mpg (in that car), 100,000 mile oil changer only motor. He sold the leaky flat 6 for almost as much as the new gm v8.

You could take a brand new 911 turbo, sell that engine for $30,000 plus, and put in an ls7 for $20k, and you'd have a lighter, more reliable, simpler, faster,cheaper car that got better gas mileage.

You keep believing that since you are obviously suffering from confirmation bias. Your posit that an LS engine into a Porsche 911 turbo will be a superior car is so ridiculous it's laughable. Since you think the LS is the "king" of all engines, maybe we can have a better discussion after I beat you either at the drag strip or at the track in my GTR or Porsche 997.2 Turbo and then maybe we can have a good discussion as to the advantages and disadvantages of needing 8 pistons and 6+ liters of displacement which according to you "doesn't matter" to produce a mediocre torque curve with mediocre efficiency.

Now of course if you bring a force-fed ZR1 to the game then things become more interesting - but this would again again emphasize my point it's not about the engine design it's about the cost of components. I'm willing to bet (I admittedly have never torn down an LS engine before) that the ZR1 internals look very different than the Z06 or C6 model no?

You really should broaden your horizons on the "best" engines / cars. Each automaker caters to their own demographics and designs accordingly allowing them to distinguish their product. As for BMW's new V8 motor I agree with you, I was pretty close to purchasing an F10 M5 until I test drove the car and didn't like it to much. That said I've never been a big fan of BMW motors and I have put many BMW's on the dyno before...

[c1ue]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

I have to step in:

Before comparing engines, it is necessary to state the criteria.

Gas mileage, for example, matters if you're the type of driver who focuses on economics.

It is much less of an issue with people who care about performance.

A better example would be a Boeing airliner vs. an F-15 fighter. I guarantee the Boeing is far more efficient and economical, but I think we can all agree which plane is faster, tighter turning, better rate of climb, etc.

[jr429]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

I have to step in:

Before comparing engines, it is necessary to state the criteria.

Gas mileage, for example, matters if you're the type of driver who focuses on economics.

It is much less of an issue with people who care about performance.

A better example would be a Boeing airliner vs. an F-15 fighter. I guarantee the Boeing is far more efficient and economical, but I think we can all agree which plane is faster, tighter turning, better rate of climb, etc.

Absolutely agreed, this is why I think this thread is a little ridiculous - it's exactly like you are saying. The question being asked is similar to "what's the best airplane"?

My point is that the "best" engine is the most expensive one. Expensive being a combination of material and manufacturing costs including tooling but excluding development.

[reggie]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

I want my 1981 Honda Civic, with its Aluminum head, back..... 63 mpg hwy and 51 mpg city, baby. I wish I would have never sold that car.

[c1ue]

Re: U.S. Car Engine Better Than Germans!

My point is that the "best" engine is the most expensive one. Expensive being a combination of material and manufacturing costs including tooling but excluding development.

I do understand what you're saying, but I can't say I necessarily agree.

After all, cost has a lot of factors going into it. Materials cost doesn't change, but technological cost does - the 1000th F15 fighter costs a lot less than the 1st.

The GM vs. Porsche engine overlooks this aspect as well: the R & D cost to develop the LS engine is spread out over likely 10x or more units sold than the Porsche engine. Equally the Japanese engines in the '70s had relatively little R & D cost but were competing with fully depreciated US engines.