Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

[jpatter666]

One of EJ's comments (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the future belongs to high-efficiency combustion cars. Not electrics.

Ran across this today and it certainly looks like efforts are going in that direction.

http://wikispeed.org/the-car/

[verdo]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

Interesting. Sounds almost too good to be true

The SGT01 offers the following:

• 109 miles per gallon combined (US EPA cycle simulation), which is a record for a road-legal gasoline engine. We have tested the car internally, with Roush Industries, and while campaigning in the Progressive Insurance Automotive X Prize. We excitedly await official EPA rankings.
• It’s the lightest car ever to achieve a five-star equivalency rating for front-, side-, and rear-impact tests. We have built to NHTSA and IIHS specifications and excitedly await official rankings.
• 0 to 60 MPH comes in 5 seconds.
• Current top speed of 149 MPH.
• The ultra-efficient gasoline engine is mid-mounted for optimum efficiency of power delivery and minimal energy loss when turning.
• 4 gallon gasoline tank for a 400 mile range. No batteries, just ultra-efficient use of gasoline.
• It’s available for only $25,000.
• The body is crafted in Maryland, the chassis built in Washington, the engine and transmission produced in Ohio, and the electronics systems built in Japan and France and the United Kingdom.
• Mechanicals serviceable by any shop equipped to service current generation Honda engines. Electronics are being packaged into shoe-box sized mailable-modules for mailed service and repair. Modules slide out, providing access to all sides of most components, for ease of self service if desired.
• Snow and foul weather stable handling with the engine directly over the driven wheels. Snow tires recommended for snow driving.

[LorenS]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

That wikicar looks like a road legal go cart.

When I need a vehicle it's usually due to weather or having kids to haul around.

Nissan Leaf is more in line with what I'm looking for.

[jpatter666]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

That wikicar looks like a road legal go cart.

When I need a vehicle it's usually due to weather or having kids to haul around.

Nissan Leaf is more in line with what I'm looking for.

Guess I should have been clearer -- this is *nowhere* near your average commercial car. However, I'm really fascinated by the process and the fact that a very small team that started out with minimal experience has managed to pull off a viable auto.

And given the iterative nature of their design process, who knows where they might be in a few years.

[c1ue]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

Anyone know where the more detailed info on the car is available?

My bet is that the car is extremely light. Like 1000 pounds or so.

Essentially a 4 wheeled motorcycle.

And while I can completely see how a high mpg is possible, the tradeoff - if in fact my weight guesstimate is close - is extreme increase in chance of death should an accident occur with another vehicle.

A 5 star crash rating means nothing when your car weighs 1/4th as much as the other car - crashes are all about momentum transfer. Mass times velocity of the first car vs. mass times velocity of the 2nd car - the 2 momentum vectors equalize out, but the resulting change of speed/direction for the smaller car is a square function.

Simple example: 1 - 1000 lb car going at 30 mph hits another 4000 lb car going at 30 mph head on. The 1000 lb car (and all its occupants) is accelerated with 4 times the energy of the 4000 lb car.

This is why motorcycle/bicyclist accidents with cars are generally gruesome. The car drivers will be fine almost every time, but the 2 wheelers won't.

I'd also guess the car has little or no support apparatus. You know, like power windows, air conditioner, etc etc. In a luxury car, this can be 1000 lbs or more just by itself.

[jpatter666]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

Anyone know where the more detailed info on the car is available?

My bet is that the car is extremely light. Like 1000 pounds or so.

Essentially a 4 wheeled motorcycle.

And while I can completely see how a high mpg is possible, the tradeoff - if in fact my weight guesstimate is close - is extreme increase in chance of death should an accident occur with another vehicle.

A 5 star crash rating means nothing when your car weighs 1/4th as much as the other car - crashes are all about momentum transfer. Mass times velocity of the first car vs. mass times velocity of the 2nd car - the 2 momentum vectors equalize out, but the resulting change of speed/direction for the smaller car is a square function.

Simple example: 1 - 1000 lb car going at 30 mph hits another 4000 lb car going at 30 mph head on. The 1000 lb car (and all its occupants) is accelerated with 4 times the energy of the 4000 lb car.

This is why motorcycle/bicyclist accidents with cars are generally gruesome. The car drivers will be fine almost every time, but the 2 wheelers won't.

I'd also guess the car has little or no support apparatus. You know, like power windows, air conditioner, etc etc. In a luxury car, this can be 1000 lbs or more just by itself.

It weighs just 1,404 pounds.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveden...d-in-3-months/

Team Wikispeed follows the model of Agile software teams, using 1 week “sprints”. The team iterates the entire car every 7 days. That means every 7 days they re-evaluate each part of the car and re-invent the next highest priority aspects. This radically accelerates the pace of development.

Agile manufacturing

Justice explains that the key to speed is being modular. The engine can be switched from a gasoline engine to an electric engine in the time it normally takes to change a tire. The car body switches from a convertible to a pickup truck. This enables quick development. The chassis holds all the modules together: it’s the lightest chassis in the world to achieve a five-star crash rating equivalency.
The car is safe because the team designs safety tests for the all the car’s parts before they are made. They take this practice from test-driven development in the software world.
The team reduces the cost of making changes wherever possible—costs in tooling machinery and complexity. This means they don’t have to wait three to seven years for the next version of their product: they are able to make changes to any part of the car every seven days.
They use distributed collaborative teams. This helps increase team velocity. Morale is a multiplier for morale across the team. They organize their teams using Scrum.
They do all their work in pairs. This avoids time spent in training that’s not productive. It drastically reduces the need for documentation. The people doing the work share knowledge while working, without having to up-train someone afterwards.
The tools they use are free, like FreeConferenceCall.com, Dropbox, GoogleDocs, YouTube, Skydrve, Facebook and LinkedIn. None of these tools existed ten years ago.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

Interesting. Sounds almost too good to be true

It looks like that thing is straight plastic with no safety features at all.

Those specs on a motorcycle wouldn't raise too many eyebrows...which is I think essentially what they've built here. Something that weighs as much as a motorcycle only with a small plastic body and two small plastic seats.

Not exactly hyper-practical. Sure you'd use twice the gas in a new Passat TDI for the same money, but you also can drive the kids around, haul stuff, stream Pandora, and survive a crash. 0-60 in 5 sec does sound fun, though.

These competitions are cool. It's always fun to see what people cook up.

But the Mercedes E300 Blutech Hybrid's already getting just about 70mpg. Getting something like that into a cheaper car should happen eventually.

I don't know how much can be done to drop the weight and keep consumers actually wanting a thing in the US. Midsizes outsell compacts here. People just don't want a cramped ride. Throw two 6 foot tall men in the front seats of a Corolla and you'll see what I mean quickly. That extra almost 20" of shoulder room on the Camry counts for a lot.

The more perplexing thing will be about people wanting power. The best-selling car here's the Camry. You can get 41mpg combined on the hybrid/4-banger. You're only looking at 25mpg combined for the 3.5L 6cyl. That's an improvement over the 21mpg they got four body-styles ago back in 1996. But not by a whole hell-of-a-lot.

If you want passing power and muscle in a practically-sized car, you're just not going to get the efficiency.

There are a lot more diesel's coming now, though. Should keep things interesting along with the more pervasive hybrid options.

[shiny!]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

From the O/P's link:

These cars are not for everyone. They are road legal, but comfort and convenience stop there. Developed for the ultimate in speed and efficiency, they skip every amenity except an iPhone dock in the dash panel. They do not have a lockable trunk, roof, or cup holders. Step over the side crush structures and fixed door panels then sit down inside like a pure race car for the ultimate in light-weight and simplicity.

With the Elio, the Arcimoto (who's design I believe Elio stole), and this car, we're seeing more developers reaching for solutions outside the 4-wheels-seats-5 box. Most cars on the road are performing short errands and work commutes with a lone driver or perhaps one passenger. The standard type vehicle is overkill. It uses too many resources to build and too much fuel to operate. Ford, GM and the like are stuck in the past. Any fuel efficiency improvements they try are hampered by the large vehicles they insist on using. They think this is what their customers want. This is what their customers want, until they see gasoline price shocks and the logic of alternative designs.

I'm really excited to see these new developments in vehicle design, distributed information and the choices to use off-the-shelf components as much as possible. These vehicles are experimental and won't suit everybody. Until they're refined by lots of trial and error they won't suit most people. But they're at least thinking in the right direction. Unlike Ford and GM, these little companies, if they have enough money, are creative, nimble and responsive to change.

This new trend in car design and business models is similar to the new trend of filmmaking, where artists are bypassing the networks and big studios, filming on shoestring budgets and publishing their work directly over the internet. What they lack in production quality they make up for in bizarre creativity. Most of it's dreck, like the early years of TV. But the potential is enormous.

It'll be interesting to see where the car, TV and film industries are in ten years.

[jpatter666]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

I'm really excited to see these new developments in vehicle design, distributed information and the choices to use off-the-shelf components as much as possible. These vehicles are experimental and won't suit everybody. Until they're refined by lots of trial and error they won't suit most people. But they're at least thinking in the right direction. Unlike Ford and GM, these little companies, if they have enough money, are creative, nimble and responsive to change.

This new trend in car design and business models is similar to the new trend of filmmaking, where artists are bypassing the networks and big studios, filming on shoestring budgets and publishing their work directly over the internet. What they lack in production quality they make up for in bizarre creativity. Most of it's dreck, like the early years of TV. But the potential is enormous.

It'll be interesting to see where the car, TV and film industries are in ten years.

Exactly. Doing something like this was nearly impossible a decade ago.

The modular nature of the car allows for the possibility you might just have one frame for your lifetime. A convertible in your 20s, convert to SUV in your 30s, truck in the 40s and finally a sedan.

And imagine the gnashing of teeth for auto-repair shops if I can swap faulty modules myself.....

I'm over-simplifying I know, but I do this this coming in some form.

[wayiwalk]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

I really have to wonder about the utility of these light weight cars in the northeast (or elsewhere in the north) as far as handling when there is any snow on the ground (roads). It makes a big difference being in a heavier car when traveling in snow....unless there are provisions to use chains on the tires.

Yet another argument (along with the future high heating costs ) against staying in the northeast.

[shiny!]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

Exactly. Doing something like this was nearly impossible a decade ago.

The modular nature of the car allows for the possibility you might just have one frame for your lifetime. A convertible in your 20s, convert to SUV in your 30s, truck in the 40s and finally a sedan.

And imagine the gnashing of teeth for auto-repair shops if I can swap faulty modules myself.....

I'm over-simplifying I know, but I do this this coming in some form.

Interesting ideas.

I believe Arcimoto's production plan entails local franchise dealers purchasing the rights to build the vehicles from a combination of frame kits and locally sourced off-the shelf parts, according to specs. This in contrast to Big Auto building vehicles in only a few locations, then transporting them across the country on big trucks.

Speaking of which, I hardly ever see those big trucks carrying shiny new cars anymore. Can't remember the last time I saw one.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

I really have to wonder about the utility of these light weight cars in the northeast (or elsewhere in the north) as far as handling when there is any snow on the ground (roads). It makes a big difference being in a heavier car when traveling in snow....unless there are provisions to use chains on the tires.

Yet another argument (along with the future high heating costs ) against staying in the northeast.

My father learned to drive in a model T ford, which was a very light car (1200 lbs or so, compared to a new little Smart car at 1900 lb)
During the depression in rural Minnesota they delivered the mail with that car driving across the snow on road and off road.
They lashed old skis to the front tires and drove over top of deep snow.

In college I drove a 1966 Volvo P1800S (about 1200 lbs) here in Ohio and had no trouble at all with snow in winter.

Light cars can work in snow.

[shiny!]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

I really have to wonder about the utility of these light weight cars in the northeast (or elsewhere in the north) as far as handling when there is any snow on the ground (roads). It makes a big difference being in a heavier car when traveling in snow....unless there are provisions to use chains on the tires.

Yet another argument (along with the future high heating costs ) against staying in the northeast.

FWIW, my late husband drove an old VW Beetle all over snow and black ice in northern Wisconsin during winters when he was a college student. It weighed about 1600 pounds.

[GRG55]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

Anyone know where the more detailed info on the car is available?

My bet is that the car is extremely light. Like 1000 pounds or so.

Essentially a 4 wheeled motorcycle.

And while I can completely see how a high mpg is possible, the tradeoff - if in fact my weight guesstimate is close - is extreme increase in chance of death should an accident occur with another vehicle.

A 5 star crash rating means nothing when your car weighs 1/4th as much as the other car - crashes are all about momentum transfer. Mass times velocity of the first car vs. mass times velocity of the 2nd car - the 2 momentum vectors equalize out, but the resulting change of speed/direction for the smaller car is a square function.

Simple example: 1 - 1000 lb car going at 30 mph hits another 4000 lb car going at 30 mph head on. The 1000 lb car (and all its occupants) is accelerated with 4 times the energy of the 4000 lb car.

This is why motorcycle/bicyclist accidents with cars are generally gruesome. The car drivers will be fine almost every time, but the 2 wheelers won't.

I'd also guess the car has little or no support apparatus. You know, like power windows, air conditioner, etc etc. In a luxury car, this can be 1000 lbs or more just by itself.

Weight is the enemy of vehicle efficiency, so vehicles are going to keep getting lighter for those that cannot, will not or need not pay for lugging around a mini-tank...Newtonian physics notwithstanding (F= m*a).

The picture of this vehicle is somewhat reminiscent of Tesla's first effort...the Roadster.

[GRG55]

Re: Is Musk's (Tesla) real competition WikiSpeed?

My father learned to drive in a model T ford, which was a very light car (1200 lbs or so, compared to a new little Smart car at 1900 lb)
During the depression in rural Minnesota they delivered the mail with that car driving across the snow on road and off road.
They lashed old skis to the front tires and drove over top of deep snow.

In college I drove a 1966 Volvo P1800S (about 1200 lbs) here in Ohio and had no trouble at all with snow in winter.

Light cars can work in snow.

Completely agree. The very best off-road and snow vehicle I ever drove was my oldest brother's cut down and heavily modified 1966 1200cc VW Beetle. The secret is not the weight of the vehicle but a tall, narrow wheel/tire that will cut through all the soft mud or snow on the surface so it can get down to something more solid with traction. Back in the 1970s there wasn't a 4WD truck made that could go where we took that lightweight buggy, including up a mountain trail to where my brother had a snowmobile cabin for winter. Everyone else parked at the bottom and rode their sleds up.

The youngsters I see today driving fancy 4x4 pickups with fat, low sidewall profile tires in the winter have no clue...