Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

[davidstvz]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

From now on we will travel in TUBES!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf8ELeZDhy8&t=2m49s

[charliebrown]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

yes, I think we are kind of agreeing here. Instead of spending BBB of dollars on maglev mumbo-jumbo, in my area if we just upgraded the existing rail system,
we could get the st. louis time down to 3-4 hours, and of course it would be much more pleasurable than sitting in a drivers seat for 5 hours. More trains means more flexibility, less stops, and less of a penalty if you miss one. Also included would be metro area of detroit, milwaukee, indianapolis, cinci and lousiville.

Just like the airports convient rental cars right outside the terminal would help too. Using St. Louis as an example, I can't figure out how easy it is to rent a car. There is an avis about a mile away. Do they have a shuttle? Would they drop a car at the train, would I have to take a cab. Just some more info
would help. This is not just a academic exercise for me. I am actually thinking of trying a train trip from Chi-St. Louis. Just as a vacation.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

We have had a number of train experiences in the recent past.


The first time one of our sons and family took a train from Raleigh NC to Orlando Florida to meet the other 25 members of our family for a cruise. He had no problem having a rental car waiting for him at the train station.
My wife and I took a train this February from Charlotte NC to New Orleans for another cruise. We had no one to stop and see on the way and we usually drive everywhere, but decided to try the train. It obviously is much longer than flying, but since we usually drive that does not matter to us. We enjoyed the trip. The food was good and we enjoyed the people we met. We would do it again.


In June we took the Auto Train from Lorton VA to Sanford FL for another cruise. It cost us a total of $355 for the two of us and our car including a good dinner and breakfast! Again we enjoyed the trip and would do it again. We have a daughter and family in Newark, DE which is why we decided on this train since it would not regularly make sense since we live in NC and the train does not stop in between Lorton and Sanford.


Next month we are taking a train from Wilmington, DE to Penn Station in Manhattan. This was a no brainer. We did not want to drive into Manhattan and certainly don’t need a car in Manhattan.


We would take trains more often if we found ones that made sense.

[vt]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

If nothing else, Musk is great at PR:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/netapp/2...led-elon-musk/

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-the-hyperloop

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...50500085,d.aWc

[think365]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...-of-sound.html

He'll try to outdo Tesla

For what it's worth, here's the design info:

Elon Musk gives us the goods on Hyperloop

By Ben Coxworth
August 12, 2013



Elon Musk has revealed the design and details of his proposed Hyperloop transit system


He may be the man behind PayPal, Tesla Motors and SpaceX, but Elon Musk has been garnering more attention lately for his proposed Hyperloop transit system. Although virtually no details had previously been announced, Musk has stated that it would serve as a much faster, more efficient alternative to traditional passenger rail transport – more specifically, it would allow passengers to travel the 350 miles (563 km) from Los Angeles to San Francisco in just 30 minutes. Well, this afternoon (as promised) he finally let everyone in on just what it would be, and how it would work.

Many people had been envisioning Hyperloop as something akin to a giant vacuum tube with electromagnetically-suspended capsules running inside of it – these capsules would be loaded with passengers and simply be sucked along.

According to Musk’s announcement, however, one of the problems with such a setup would be the fact that the air column within the tube would build up in front of each capsule as it traveled down the tube. He likens it to the resistance you encounter when trying to push a plunger through a syringe full of fluid. His solution? Put an electric compressor fan on the nose of each capsule, that would draw the air through it.



This would also provide a means of suspension, as the drawn-in air could be expelled through vents in the bottom of the capsule, creating a very low-friction cushion that would keep the vehicle floating softly within the tube – while it traveled at speeds of up to 700 mph (1,127 km/h).

An onboard battery would reportedly be sufficient to run the fan for the whole LA to SF trip, but something else would be required to provide propulsion. For that, Musk is suggesting an external linear electric motor, built into the inside of the tube. In his words, it’s “simply a round induction motor (like the one in the Tesla Model S) rolled flat.” In the near-frictionless tube, a series of these motors placed about one every 70 miles (113 km) should provide enough of a continuous boost to keep the capsules moving at sub-sonic speeds. All told, the sections of the tube containing the motors should make up less than one percent of its total length.

The motors would be powered by photovoltaic panels mounted on top of the tube, which Musk claims could generate “far in excess of the energy needed to operate.”

He estimates that the capsules and motors will cost several hundred million dollars at most, with the price tag of the tube sitting more around several billion, but that it would still be cheaper than the planned California bullet train. Additionally, he notes that it should be easier and cheaper to build, as it could just be placed up on giant pylons over existing land, mostly following the Interstate 5 highway.

Each pylon would contain two adjustable lateral dampers and one vertical damper, which would be used to keep the tube level in the face of shifting ground and thermal changes. Additionally, telescoping sections at each end of the tube would be included to tweak its length as needed.

Finally, it should be noted that Musk doesn’t plan on building the Hyperloop himself – he simply wants to get the design out there, for other parties to run with.

We’ll have more of an in-depth analysis soon. In the meantime, techy types can read up on all the details in the PDF available via the link below.

Source: Tesla Motors

[javaljav]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

Note!!! A larger ecosystem for battery to make Model S viable? Or a backdoor govt funding to make it viable? Glad I closed my short..will wait and watch.

From the design document:

4.3.3. Energy Storage Components
Energy storage allows this linear accelerator to only draw its average power of 8,000 hp (6 MW) (rather than the peak power of 70,000 hp or 52 MW) from its
solar array.

Building the energy storage element out of the same lithium ion cells available in the Tesla Model S is economical. A battery array with enough power capability to provide the worst-case smoothing power has a lot of energy – launching 1 capsule only uses 0.5% of the total energy – so degradation due to
cycling is not an issue. With proper construction and controls, the battery could be directly connected to the HVDC bus, eliminating the need for an additional DC/DC converter to connect it to the propulsion system.

[EJ]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...-of-sound.html

He'll try to outdo Tesla

Focused on my bond market research this summer I have not kept up with Musk's latest "No, look over here!" antics.

I thought Hyperloop was an article from The Onion when I first read it this AM, so well did it come off like a parody of a grandiose Musk scheme.

When researching my book I interviewed an official in charge of U.S. public rail policy, off-the-record. He had been in the role for over 30 years. I asked him a leading question: Why High Speed Rail (HSR) has gone nowhere in the U.S. while building out in China. I knew the answer but wanted to hear it from a guy who'd made public transportation his career.

Paraphrasing his answer: "Large land mass and strong property rights laws. Look, HSR is straight rail. Building straight rail means confiscating property to create the new straight route. In the US that means eminent domain on a massive scale. How many wealthy property owners with good lawyers, or who are good lawyers, need to be fought off to build a surface or elevated line from, say, NYC to Chicago or any other heavily travelled city-to-city route? 10,000? 100,000? In China the government owns all the land. HSR and nuclear plants and ghost cities in the countryside, it's the same deal. Look on the bright side, we'll never have much HSR in the US but no ghost cities in Texas or Utah, either. We'll only get nukes if we run out of gas and coal in 100 years."

The key problem with HSR is political and it is not addressed by Hyperloop unless the tubes can be built cheaply underground.

[javaljav]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

The key problem with HSR is political and it is not addressed by Hyperloop unless the tubes can be built cheaply underground.

From the same document referred in my previous post:

4.4. Route
The Hyperloop will be capable of traveling between Los Angeles and San Francisco in approximately 35 minutes. This requirement tends to size other portions of the system. Given the performance specification of the Hyperloop, a route has been devised to satisfy this design requirement. The Hyperloop route should be based on several considerations, including:

1. Maintaining the tube as closely as possible to existing rights of way (e.g., following the I-5).
.
.
This quacks like a Li-ion battery story and walks like one too

[photon555]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

What happens to all these lithium battery cells when they are degraded and have to be pulled out of service? What are the constraints on recycling or disposal? How does that affect the actual operating costs? And one last question: what about safety concerns; lithium ion can be prone to fire, explosion, etc., as in the Boeing Dreamliner debacle. What does a 52 MW plus battery pack on fire look like and what would it take to control the fire?

[c1ue]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

When researching my book I interviewed an official in charge of U.S. public rail policy, off-the-record. He had been in the role for over 30 years. I asked him a leading question: Why High Speed Rail (HSR) has gone nowhere in the U.S. while building out in China. I knew the answer but wanted to hear it from a guy who'd made public transportation his career.

Paraphrasing his answer: "Large land mass and strong property rights laws. Look, HSR is straight rail. Building straight rail means confiscating property to create the new straight route. In the US that means eminent domain on a massive scale. How many wealthy property owners with good lawyers, or who are good lawyers, need to be fought off to build a surface or elevated line from, say, NYC to Chicago or any other heavily travelled city-to-city route? 10,000? 100,000? In China the government owns all the land. HSR and nuclear plants and ghost cities in the countryside, it's the same deal. Look on the bright side, we'll never have much HSR in the US but no ghost cities in Texas or Utah, either. We'll only get nukes if we run out of gas and coal in 100 years."

Another note is that even if Hyperloop could magically overcome the straight rail issue, the main cost in shinkansen construction was actually infrastructure building in the form of bridges, grading slopes, digging tunnels, and what not.

Just because Hyperloop follows existing highways doesn't mean it can piggyback the highway construction over streams, roads, hills, and canyons.

More yakety yak.

[Chomsky]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

What happens to all these lithium battery cells when they are degraded and have to be pulled out of service? What are the constraints on recycling or disposal? How does that affect the actual operating costs? And one last question: what about safety concerns; lithium ion can be prone to fire, explosion, etc., as in the Boeing Dreamliner debacle. What does a 52 MW plus battery pack on fire look like and what would it take to control the fire?

Just recycle the lithium! Some people have some creative ideas.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

I just skimmed through Mr. Musk's paper.
Like any good promotional concept study, it glosses over the serious practical engineering issues to "...sell the sizzle..." of what might be technically possible.
Two items that jump out to me are:

1. Emergency egress.
Musk proposes a little tube just 4 1/2 feet in diameter filled with a passenger capsule, with passengers reclining nearly to the point of laying flat. Zero room for any door or hatch to open, or for people to pass between the vehicle and the wall. I doubt a real person could even move from the front seat to the back with the capsule closed. The seating arrangement is a lot like a bobsled, not like a city bus. If that train stops, well, you are stuck until something pulls the capsule to the nearest station so you can get out. If there is a fire, well, you've been unlucky and had a very bad day. Sorry.

This egress problem exists for more conventional elevated monorails. Years ago our research team had this conversation with some German engineers proposing an elevated monorail in Florida. The Germans kept answering that a breakdown between stations simply was not possible, and neither 80 year old aunt Mildred nor little 3 year old Bobby need worry about scrambling out of the train to a narrow catwalk 50 feet above the sidewalk, and perhaps plunging to their demise.
Outside an elevated monorail there is at least fresh air to breath. The Hyperloop has no air in the tube. Maybe toxic smoke from a burning battery pack, but no air.

2. The last mile problem.
To take the Hyperloop, one must get down to the San Francisco station; park ones car; check luggage; and wait to board and depart.
Arriving in Los Angeles, one must get off the capsule; get ones luggage; go rent a car or board a bus or taxi; and get to ones final destination a few miles from the station.
I would be surprised if that did not require at least one hour at each end. The hyperloop ride takes 35 minutes. So instead of a 6 hour drive door-to-door, we would get a 2 1/2 hour trip with two station visits.

I am willing to speculate that this system concept for San Francisco -to-LA is the technical sweet spot for the whole idea, and trips that are much longer or much shorter results in a system design and costs that become even more absurd. Large unaffordable tubes; impossible energy requirements for air handling and propulsion; astronomical vehicle costs; requirements to move away from on-board batteries to a hard-wired system with thousand of miles of copper...
That is pure speculation by me, but I would love to see the similar study for a 50 passenger capsule with a lavatory and coffee service going from New York to LA.

[shiny!]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

I just skimmed through Mr. Musk's paper.
Like any good promotional concept study, it glosses over the serious practical engineering issues to "...sell the sizzle..." of what might be technically possible.
Two items that jump out to me are:

1. Emergency egress.
Musk proposes a little tube just 4 1/2 feet in diameter filled with a passenger capsule, with passengers reclining nearly to the point of laying flat. Zero room for any door or hatch to open, or for people to pass between the vehicle and the wall. I doubt a real person could even move from the front seat to the back with the capsule closed. The seating arrangement is a lot like a bobsled, not like a city bus. If that train stops, well, you are stuck until something pulls the capsule to the nearest station so you can get out. If there is a fire, well, you've been unlucky and had a very bad day. Sorry.

Yikes, that's scary. If someone had a heart attack no one could get to them to administer CPR.

I won't even get into a kayak because the thought of my legs being confined sets off claustrophobia. No way would I get into one of those hyperloop cars.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

If we had the sort of tax system that would recover the growth in asset values though taxes while also adding real user fees to roads, it would certainly make some of these projects look more economical more or less the real economic reality instead of computing without the account of the road subsidies and real estate free rides.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Elon Musk's Hyperloop- The Faster Than Sound Transportation System

Yikes, that's scary. If someone had a heart attack no one could get to them to administer CPR.

I won't even get into a kayak because the thought of my legs being confined sets off claustrophobia. No way would I get into one of those hyperloop cars.

A form of transportation that can outrun signals in your nervous system outruns the pain....in any sort of accident.