Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

[Woodsman]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

There are even H1-B programs for federal jobs. The branch chief files a Federal Labor Condition Application (LCA) with the Department of Labor; approval is pro forma, so it's good to go. Your H1-B non-imigrant visa holder can now work in a federal job that would be otherwise be held by a U.S. citizen. So long as the H1-B does not require a security clearance, they're good for 12 months and infinitely renewable.

[ST]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

You do understand the impact H1 visas have had on the wages for software engineers - why hire Americans when you can bring in H1 visa employee for half the cost.
This is part of a continuing theme in our society toward fewer and fewer full-time jobs. Do realize how many recent College grads are under employed - we are devolving into a society with fewer and fewer full time jobs = lower numbers of people in the labor force...
Please keep in mind I have the pleasure to work with Russian immigrants, Indian immigrants, and Americans. Yes, there are some brilliant folks who come here from Russia and India who make massive contributions to our society.

As a former H1-B'er (now citizen) and former business owner who then had to hire (ultimately) eight people, I find the discussions of interest on this heated topic. One remarkable thing is that people believe, generally, that H1-B'ers get paid far less than their counterparts - sure it happens, but it's illegal and companies stupid enough to take the route risk the wrath of the DOL. Do you think that the bulk of H1-B employers would risk such nonsense? If you were a business owner, would you hire someone from China or India at an illegal wage, put up with cultural differences/communication problems which can be extremely difficult and invest years of time and expense in training someone, all the while knowing that the clock is ticking and they may have to leave the country, unless you fund and commit to the onerous paperwork required for them to get a green card? Nevermind the fact that there are 909,600 software engineers employed in the U.S. (the non-exempt H1-B percentage of those amounts to 7% of the workforce, IF every H1-B were employed as a software engineer, which of course they are not)

Maybe, these people create more jobs for Americans:

The Supply Side of Innovation:
H-1B Visa Reforms and US Ethnic Invention
William R. Kerr, Harvard Business School, Boston MA, William F. Lincoln, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI, December 2008,
HBS Working Paper 09-005

Abstract
This study evaluates the impact of high-skilled immigrants on US technology formation. Specifically, we use reduced-form specications that exploit large changes in the H-1B visa program. Fluctuations in H-1B admissions levels significantly infl‡uence the rate of Indian and Chinese patenting in cities and firms dependent upon the program relative to their peers. Most specications find weak crowding-in effects or no effect at all for native patenting. Total invention increases with higher admission levels primarily through the direct contributions of ethnic inventors.

[c1ue]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

One remarkable thing is that people believe, generally, that H1-B'ers get paid far less than their counterparts - sure it happens, but it's illegal and companies stupid enough to take the route risk the wrath of the DOL.

That's because it might be true:

http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages

• In spite of the requirement that H-1B workers be paid the prevailing wage, H-1B workers earn significantly less than their American counterparts. On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state.
  
• Wages for H-1B workers in computer programming occupations are overwhelmingly concentrated at the bottom of the U.S. pay scale. Wages on LCAs for 85 percent of H-1B workers were for less than the median U.S. wage in the same occupations and state.
  
• Applications for 47 percent of H-1B computer programming workers were for wages below even the prevailing wage claimed by their employers.
  
• Very few H-1B workers earned high wages by U.S. standards. Applications for only 4 percent of H-1B workers were among the top 25 percent of wages for U.S. workers in the same state and occupation.
  
• Many employers use their own salary surveys and wage surveys for entry-level workers, rather than more relevant and objective data sources, to make prevailing-wage claims when hiring H-1B workers.
  
• Employers of large numbers of H-1B workers tend to pay those workers less than those who hire a few. Employers making applications for more than 100 H-1B workers had wages averaging $9,000 less than employers of one to 10 H-1B workers.

The above site is a relatively anti-immigration one, so conclusions have to be taken with many grains of salt, but I did not see any counter-data from your post.

[photoncounter]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

I think it is important to categorize between two types of H-1B's -- 1) who get their education in the US and then work in the US and 2) who are sent on contract to US from India/Russia/China etc. In the former case, there is no wage difference, I think. I believe these are the immigrants who innovate, start companies and create jobs.

IMO, all the under paid labor that most people refer to is in the later category. These employees of overseas (consulting) company are sent on short term contracts (some times multi-year) to work in the US (client site) and paid foreign salary + US salary. This US salary is sometimes half of what gets paid to US equivalent - which can be a US citizen or a H1-B employee who got his education in the US. So, two H1-B's in the same company, doing similar work, may be drawing different salary. Sometimes, 2nd category of H-1B's are trained by US Citizens and/or 1st category of H-1B's, eventually losing their job, cause the job was moved to that foreign country (sometimes the H-1B who trained the other H-1B are from the same country !).

Not sure what % of the H-1B constitutes each category (Please note that I am not literally pointing to any type of H-1B as 1st of 2nd category).

I don't think most people understand some of these differences and everything is generalized as H-1B (which is true, but deserves some classification). The immigration bill addresses some of this.

[photoncounter]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

Yes, there are clear differences between talented software engineers and pencil pushers. You need both to run a software company.

The answer to this is no. I say this because Google, Yahoo, Facebook, and so forth have been spending tens of millions moving engineers to their headquarters in the Silicon Valley for the past few years. The neoliberal theory that you can stitch together software teams from all over the world has failed; the inability to socially bond, to have healthy, competitive yet cooperative working relationships, cultural disconnects which fail to get sanded away by close physical interaction, and so forth has manifested in disconnected teams working on the same project having significantly poorer productivity than teams which are co-located. The recent Waze battle was in some part decided because the Waze founder refused to move his entire team to Silicon Valley - preferring to stay in Israel.

The H1B is also not restricted to the pencil pushers. A smart guy I know who is a fellow at a major software company, is H1B. He's stuck in that company for 5 more years. He isn't starving to death by any means, but his pay is at probably 1/4 of what it would be were he on the 'open market'. He's completely unwilling to restart the green card process, so he's literally an indentured worker until then. One of the contract employees that I employ for my work now is in a similar position with Visa.

The H1B isn't just a way to keep wages down by bringing in more qualified workers; the outstanding ones who do get in this way are then chained to their companies by the green card process. Sure, they could switch over, but the only real effect is to restart the whole process elsewhere; in this scenario it is just about impossible to get a new job offer which compensates for extending the period of indenture.

More anecdotal evidence that H1B is a scam: the guy who does the apps for my company - he and his brothers' main business is farming H1B into Ebay and what not. There's significant money to be made just being able to snag H1B slots such that there are actual businesses being based on farming H1Bs into corporations.

Agree.

[BK]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby - before Massive H1 visas - Microsoft case

Does anyone remember the good ole days when Microsoft used large numbers of contractors and the Law suit/settlement. I'd make the case that H1 Visa expansion provide the opportunity to keep expenses down while avoiding further litigation...
http://www.itworld.com/IW010108calist

This study claims that all H-1 visa workers are not the best and brightest - and are paid lower wages.

http://www.informationweek.com/globa...tudy/240149839

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby - before Massive H1 visas - Microsoft case

This study claims that all H-1 visa workers are not the best and brightest - and are paid lower wages.

http://www.informationweek.com/globa...tudy/240149839

The salaries quoted from the following Bloomberg article (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ation-law.html) provide two data points for immigrant workers: $4,800/month and $5,500/month, which compute to annual salaries of $57,600 and $66,000 respectively. The best and brightest do not come that cheaply. Top graduates from America's elite institutions who are citizens easily top $100,000/year as a starting salary for a software-related job.

The claim that the H-1B visa allows the US to bring in skills that do not exist or are unavailable (already employed) is about as bald-faced a lie as I've ever seen. It is one thing if, in the course of hiring the best and brightest, a minority of H-1B visa recipients are only pretty good and not of elite quality. However, I've met plenty of people on H-1B visas who are so awful that it was obvious fraud was committed in multiple places: falsified educational credentials, falsified work experience, and misrepresentation by the sponsoring company that the immigrant worker was necessary because an American could not be found. A legitimate system designed to hire 9/10s and 10/10s does not accidentally hire enormous numbers of 1/10s and 2/10s: people so awful they are really only suitable for menial labor.

Here's a recent example of a complaint against H-1B visa abuse:

http://www.itworld.com/it-management...gainst-infosys

According to the article, 90% of Infosys's US-based workers are foreign workers. Maybe there aren't enough Americans to fill all these types of jobs but few enough that 90% have to come from third-world nations where most people don't even own their own computers? It is abusive programs like the H-1B program that further deter Americans from pursuing degrees in the STEM fields, creating a self-reinforcing death spiral.

[BK]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby - before Massive H1 visas - Microsoft case

Milton,
I'd make the case that our government officials are sticking it to the Middle class - software/tech jobs salarioes under pressure with H ! visa employees and at the low end unbridled illegal immigration eroding wages of laborers - construction type employees.
Again - I'm not against immigration , I've know lots of incredibly sharp entrepreneurs who were foreign born ( a russian who invented software that did natural language processing, another russian who part created a break through data communication software, a Indian born in london who creates new products). But, what is going on today is about driving down expenses for large corporations at a time when the labor participation rate is dropping like a stone.

Its all about campaign donations for the Ds and the Rs.

[LazyBoy]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby - before Massive H1 visas - Microsoft case

Can you imagine how cheap Medical/dental services good be offer H1 Visas to every doctor/dentist/Physical therapist on the Planet to come to the US - you could even offer financial incentives.

No. I can imagine the insurance companies making more money though.

[Forrest]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby - before Massive H1 visas - Microsoft case

Milton,
I'd make the case that our government officials are sticking it to the Middle class - software/tech jobs salarioes under pressure with H ! visa employees and at the low end unbridled illegal immigration eroding wages of laborers - construction type employees.
Again - I'm not against immigration , I've know lots of incredibly sharp entrepreneurs who were foreign born ( a russian who invented software that did natural language processing, another russian who part created a break through data communication software, a Indian born in london who creates new products). But, what is going on today is about driving down expenses for large corporations at a time when the labor participation rate is dropping like a stone.

Its all about campaign donations for the Ds and the Rs.

It sure would be nice to simply go back to 'at will' employment, and a society that put talent, honesty, and hard work above everything else.

A bas a les politiciens!l

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby - before Massive H1 visas - Microsoft case

It sure would be nice to simply go back to 'at will' employment, and a society that put talent, honesty, and hard work above everything else.

A bas a les politiciens!l

Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by "at will" employment but here in Texas and I believe most states in the southern US, all employment is at-will where either employer or employee may end the employer-employee relationship without warning and without contractual obligations. Also, I would argue that most of US society highly values talent, honesty, and hard work; if it didn't, the frauds of the past 15 years would have been much more difficult to perpetrate.

[BK]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby - Zuckerberg defends Ryan

Mr Paul Ryan does not want to go out and get a job in the Private sector - he must be seeing some of the lobbying $$$$ from FWD.US. I guess his time with Mr Romney gave Ryan a taste of the good life and he has visions of the White House dancing in his head. Zuckerberg seems to have primarily support Democrats, but we all know what they say about Politics.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...361.html?hp=l2