Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

[BK]

Mr Zuckerberg and friends have launched their effort to persuade $$$$ our congress men and women to pass immigration.

As the Lobbying organization gets ramped up they look to hire people for their group www.FW.US with stipend (this usually means a minimal salary and no benefits or vacation) or with lots of unpaid interns.

http://www.fwd.us/jobs

Crony capitalism at its best!

[photoncounter]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

..and why exactly is this a bad thing ? First of all, where does it say that the internship is unpaid ? I am assuming they are not looking for experienced engineers as interns and for students, this could be a good opportunity to get hired full time later. So it could be a win-win, even if it's unpaid.

Grad students get stipends and most of the times it's peanuts for the amount of work they put in. But it's a stepping stone to a better future.

Mr Zuckerberg and friends have launched their effort to persuade $$$$ our congress men and women to pass immigration.

As the Lobbying organization gets ramped up they look to hire people for their group www.FW.US with stipend (this usually means a minimal salary and no benefits or vacation) or with lots of unpaid interns.

http://www.fwd.us/jobs

Crony capitalism at its best!

[BK]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

You do understand the impact H1 visas have had on the wages for software engineers - why hire Americans when you can bring in H1 visa employee for half the cost.
This is part of a continuing theme in our society toward fewer and fewer full-time jobs. Do realize how many recent College grads are under employed - we are devolving into a society with fewer and fewer full time jobs = lower numbers of people in the labor force...
Please keep in mind I have the pleasure to work with Russian immigrants, Indian immigrants, and Americans. Yes, there are some brilliant folks who come here from Russia and India who make massive contributions to our society.

[Raz]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

The prevailing view of the Ruling Elite (RepubliCrats) is open borders. Cheap labor means low-cost landscaping for the Republican establishment,
and the eventual disgruntlement and desire for "free stuff" also means more Democrat voters (with the help of voter fraud).

So unemployed Americans can go suck a rotten egg and the social stability of the United States be damned.

Yes, sir: don't "waste your vote" on any of those Third Party kooks!

[GRG55]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

You do understand the impact H1 visas have had on the wages for software engineers - why hire Americans when you can bring in H1 visa employee for half the cost.
This is part of a continuing theme in our society toward fewer and fewer full-time jobs. Do realize how many recent College grads are under employed - we are devolving into a society with fewer and fewer full time jobs = lower numbers of people in the labor force...
Please keep in mind I have the pleasure to work with Russian immigrants, Indian immigrants, and Americans. Yes, there are some brilliant folks who come here from Russia and India who make massive contributions to our society.

Two questions come to mind:

1. Is there a relationship between compensation and skill in software engineering? Skilled surgeons, cabinet makers, athletes and petroleum geologists get paid well above the average for their industry because top talent is not plentiful. I assume the same applies to software engineers, but am curious as to how the skill level of a software engineer is determined?

2. Isn't software engineering very portable? In other words is it necessary to bring people to the work (immigrants or otherwise) and if that is not possible won't the work get moved to where the trained people are?

[photoncounter]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

Yes I do and it is very natural in this globalized society. Why don't you think the other way round - that is the US enjoyed extravagant salaries for decades and as world gets more globalized, either shut the doors to the world or compete with the new normal ?

It's not just in the software industry. US saw the "Opportunity" in China to manufacture cheap good and export financial instruments, they took it and screwed the American manufacturing industry.

I think, this is what led to more and more American's opting for business degrees instead of Engineering degrees cause Engineering was hard and it was easy to get through B-school and make easy money on Wall-street. I have persoanlly experienced this while I was in grad school - I saw more and more students dropping out of Engineering school and going to Business major's cause it was easy to pass. Also, there were a total of 5 (if that) Americans in the EE MS/PhD program in my school and I am talking about a university with a total of 30k + students.

Have you never bought a foreign made good because it was cheaper and better, well in some cases just cheaper ?
Why do so many American's go to India to get dental procedures done ? -- Cause it costs <1/10th of what it costs here, including the flight tickets and stay. Are the dentists much better here - I really doubt.

Obviously things need to change if America want's to compete.

How many of these recent college grads that you are referring to are are software engineers ?

I am an engineer, although in the semiconductor industry. In my experience, it is extremely hard to find American Engineers, forget about good or bad. IMHO, a good engineer is never NOT in demand. A good American engineer get's hired quick, specially since 2008-2009. I have a lot of engineer friends and in the past 10 years, I have not seen more ridiculous salaries + bonuses offered, compared to what is offered RIGHT NOW, SPECIALLY in the software industry.


http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/12/tech...pay/index.html (I can find many more such news, specially from recent times)

You do understand the impact H1 visas have had on the wages for software engineers - why hire Americans when you can bring in H1 visa employee for half the cost.
This is part of a continuing theme in our society toward fewer and fewer full-time jobs. Do realize how many recent College grads are under employed - we are devolving into a society with fewer and fewer full time jobs = lower numbers of people in the labor force...
Please keep in mind I have the pleasure to work with Russian immigrants, Indian immigrants, and Americans. Yes, there are some brilliant folks who come here from Russia and India who make massive contributions to our society.

[c1ue]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

1. Is there a relationship between compensation and skill in software engineering? Skilled surgeons, cabinet makers, athletes and petroleum geologists get paid well above the average for their industry because top talent is not plentiful. I assume the same applies to software engineers, but am curious as to how the skill level of a software engineer is determined?

Yes, there are clear differences between talented software engineers and pencil pushers. You need both to run a software company.

2. Isn't software engineering very portable? In other words is it necessary to bring people to the work (immigrants or otherwise) and if that is not possible won't the work get moved to where the trained people are?

The answer to this is no. I say this because Google, Yahoo, Facebook, and so forth have been spending tens of millions moving engineers to their headquarters in the Silicon Valley for the past few years. The neoliberal theory that you can stitch together software teams from all over the world has failed; the inability to socially bond, to have healthy, competitive yet cooperative working relationships, cultural disconnects which fail to get sanded away by close physical interaction, and so forth has manifested in disconnected teams working on the same project having significantly poorer productivity than teams which are co-located. The recent Waze battle was in some part decided because the Waze founder refused to move his entire team to Silicon Valley - preferring to stay in Israel.

The H1B is also not restricted to the pencil pushers. A smart guy I know who is a fellow at a major software company, is H1B. He's stuck in that company for 5 more years. He isn't starving to death by any means, but his pay is at probably 1/4 of what it would be were he on the 'open market'. He's completely unwilling to restart the green card process, so he's literally an indentured worker until then. One of the contract employees that I employ for my work now is in a similar position with Visa.

The H1B isn't just a way to keep wages down by bringing in more qualified workers; the outstanding ones who do get in this way are then chained to their companies by the green card process. Sure, they could switch over, but the only real effect is to restart the whole process elsewhere; in this scenario it is just about impossible to get a new job offer which compensates for extending the period of indenture.

More anecdotal evidence that H1B is a scam: the guy who does the apps for my company - he and his brothers' main business is farming H1B into Ebay and what not. There's significant money to be made just being able to snag H1B slots such that there are actual businesses being based on farming H1Bs into corporations.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

Two questions come to mind:

1. Is there a relationship between compensation and skill in software engineering? Skilled surgeons, cabinet makers, athletes and petroleum geologists get paid well above the average for their industry because top talent is not plentiful. I assume the same applies to software engineers, but am curious as to how the skill level of a software engineer is determined?

2. Isn't software engineering very portable? In other words is it necessary to bring people to the work (immigrants or otherwise) and if that is not possible won't the work get moved to where the trained people are?

For whatever reason, computer systems analysts, software engineers, computer programers, and systems analysts are way overrepresented in the H1B visa scheme. Check it out.

It's interesting too to see companies like Tata and Cognizant function as temp mills for H1B hires. So of course Deloitte would get in on the action. And rounding out the top 4 is Microsoft, who, for whatever reason, unlike other software companies, doesn't use the temp/placement services and issues them on their own.

What really blows my damn mind, though, is that not that we're offering H1Bs for fashion models. Sometimes, I guess someone wants just that particular pretty face.

What really blows my mind is that we're offering H1Bs for lawyers, high school teachers and chiropractors.

So many kids graduate law school now with no job that I don't know where to begin. But I guess if you need someone with a very specific specialty, then maybe? I'm not sure. So let's move on:

There is no shortage of people graduating from college with teaching degrees looking to work. Teach for America already pays them something like $16,000 per year to get experience and they still can't find jobs after. I'm not sure there's such a need for H1Bs driving down wages in the teaching space.

But Chiropractors?! I'd like to see a senator get up and talk about the dangerous Chiropractor shortage that requires these special visas...see how long (s)he could keep a straight face.

Then there are Public Relations specialists, fashion designers, interior designers and architects. I'm pretty sure there are thousands of kids, relatively qualified, and graduating every day who could handle this stuff, if given the chance.

And this was the point Bernie Sanders (I) and Chuck Grassley (R) made when they stuck the Employ American Workers Act into the Stimulus bill. All it said was two things. One, that employers, if they took stimulus money, had to show that they tried to hire American workers with equivalent credentials for the same wage as H1B workers first. And two, that you couldn't lay off anybody with the same or very similar job description or duties as the H1B worker for 90 days after taking one on, unless the person you lay off is the H1B worker.

It doesn't say anything too drastic. And don't take stimulus money, and it won't effect you. But if you google "Employ American Workers Act," you'll find a laundry list of articles from the Wall Street Journal and Fox Business talking about how it's the end of the world.

And maybe they're right.

After all,

Could you imagine?

A world...

Where some poor, poor soul...

Had to wait a day for an appointment with a chiropractor?

[BK]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

A. I'm not a software engineer. B. I've worked closely with software engineers and a software team might be 3-4 people or more- Communication is important - its very difficult for teams to communicate when some work is done in USA and some done in Bangalore (there are lots of folks doing this - but, it complicates the process because live communication has to happen in the middle of the nights.

B. Facts are is that India pours out lots of Software engineers and they will work a whole lot cheaper than Older software engineers.

C. A neighbor who was born in India, came to the US for graduate school, describes how the USA immigration debate reminded him of home, in India there are multiple political parties, and when its close to re-election time the party in power offers all kinds of incentives for new immigrants. Its just a great way to build a power base - every election cycle offer goodies for Immigrants who can vote and keep you in power.

I'm not some on advocating for new immigration, but politicians present immigration bills as the great hope for fixing our economy when any iTulip subscriber realizes that lack of talent is not what is holding back the country...........

[BK]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

Can you imagine how cheap Medical/dental services good be offer H1 Visas to every doctor/dentist/Physical therapist on the Planet to come to the US - you could even offer financial incentives.

I'd love to see the Dentist trade over whelmed by competition - resulting in Dentist offering discount and multi-crown discounts.

[GRG55]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

...What really blows my damn mind, though, is that we're offering H1Bs for fashion models. Sometimes, I guess someone wants just that particular pretty face...

"...But these visas aren't just for coders and programmers; fashion models can also apply for them. Modeling is the only profession eligible for H1B visa status which doesn't require a bachelor's degree..."

Makes perfect sense. After all, if fashion models can't find work as fashion models they'd all have to become actresses. And then where would the world be...

[BK]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

Y A good American engineer get's hired quick, specially since 2008-2009. I have a lot of engineer friends and in the past 10 years, I have not seen more ridiculous salaries + bonuses offered, compared to what is offered RIGHT NOW, SPECIALLY in the software industry.


http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/12/tech...pay/index.html (I can find many more such news, specially from recent times)

Perhaps Software Engineer salaries/jobs are in the midst of a frenzy. In the 1990s it look like software engineering salaries would go to Infinity$$, but ultimately the frenzy subsided. Do you real how many software business accelerators (in the good ole days they were call Incubators (or Incinerators because all the cash they burned through). There are thousands of startups, software accelerators, and software app around the USA that are going to run out of startup capital. I suspect that this will diminish the problem of the lack of software engineers - but, H1 visas are about driving down costs!!!

Lots of tech companies are seeing their profitability turn down, but the stock market is making every one look feel better. I'm not saying software engineering is going away any time soon, but there are moments when it looks like the career will be stable and then there is a seismic shift in the economy. Results in some talent being lost, mis-directed, and lost opportunity.

I know a former Wellfleet Router software engineer and at one point it look like Wellfleet beat Cisco Systems. But, that didn't work out and this engineer (with a degree in Comp Sci) found himself scrambling for a job and trying to compete against H1 visa engineers who were half the cost.

[BK]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

Raz,
I'm amazed how many itulip readers can appreciate that lack of employees is not what is holding back the economy....politicians on both sides of the aisle don't care who its is that keeps them in office as long as they can stay in public office and avoid the uncertainty of the dreaded private sector.

[charliebrown]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

I have been in the software industry for 30 years. Good engineers tend to paid a little bit more than mediocre ones but not boat loads mores. The people with the purse strings HR, and hiring managers seldom have the experience to discern good talent from ok talent.

Some work is portable, but it is very hard. Specifications need to be created and sent to a remote worker. The specifications are created in a "natural" language, for example English. Natural language is imprecise and its meaning varies across organizations, cultures etc. I have been on both sides of the table. I found if very difficult to precisely specify software to another person. Many times I got very frustrated because specifying and answering questions took more time and energy than if I could just do the work myself.

In general deep technical people are not self promoters and so a loud mouth smooth talking person can beat a quiet reflective person in a job interview.

I have found that really complex work needs a group of people in the same location working on it. Many details not specified are ironed out by people chatting in cubes in informal manner. An e-mail with 3-4-12-24 hour turn around just
does not cut it. for those of us dreaming of telecommuting, I have always said if your job can be done by you at home it can be done by someone 120000 miles away just as easy.

I would be willing to work for less money if my cost structure wasnt so high. Housing is the real killer here.

[BK]

Re: Hi-tech immigration lobby offers jobs little or no pay- no benefits

I spoke with a Software Development Manager recently and his company had spent $200,000 or more on a Cisco Video conference room for conferencing with far away development people. His firm, a financial firm, had been hiring small software development teams where ever talent was cheap. First China, then India, and more on ward. But, Video conferencing with software development teams on the other side of the planet results in someone being up in the middle of the night.